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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 1:15 AM   
Jimi Findrix



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From: GeraldtonWest Oz, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Maui J.
Great waves and awesome photos.

JIMI

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 3:28 AM   
kitekook


 

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From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Real nice waves! wish some like that come our way, sofar I have only seen them like that in my dreams.....Not that small...easily double overhead!

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 9:13 AM   
Hughengland



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From: Haiku, HI, USA
Status: offline 		John, where was I when you got some the classic glass.
I've been riding storm surf on the North Shore and missed the better South Shore
Call me next time..............
ps - the new Dude rips, previous 1/2 owner is missing out.....



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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 10:50 AM   
shev


 

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From: Hervey BayQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Hey everyone... it's time I introduce myself after reading pages and chatting through messages to a few people.  Thanks to Cananzi and Itsfishi for all your help so far.  I'm pretty keen on a surfer.  A mate and I have started the process of starting from scratch.  I've modded a few NQD Tear Into Jet Boats, so it's time to try the surfer.  Electronics I have no problems with, but I'm afraid I'll be asking a few questions about some of the more surfer specific things.  We've ordered the 'how to' DVD from Maui, so I hope that will be here soon.  Everyone seems pretty helpful on here, so I guess it's build time!

Cheers everyone!

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 11:04 AM   
dreadrock


 

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Status: offline 		Gday All,
 Ok so ive made a start on the custom build, i went with what i had handy (snapped mini mal) so it's going to end up about after shaping 770mm x 190mm x 40mm Thickest point or 30" x 7 1/2" x 1 1/2" for our non metric friends. Dom going by your how much weight needed to self right formula, i get ruff enough 2.7kg, i'm thinking 2.5kgish in reality?
Ok, appolagies for all the questions in advance,
 About to start shaping,
   what sort of deadrise are you guys having success with? or angle of V in the bottom, 15deg seems quite a lot but hey?, i'm using about the same  in my jet boat????
As i stated earlier im still a newbie to electrics, so based on a 30" 2.5-3kg model any suggestions on what sort of kv i should be looking for? It seems 4s seems to be the go here but i don't know what to look for as in kv etc, higher voltage =  less kv i think. I will be going with the max batt power to suit, as in mah/C rateing. (thanks again for the formulas)
I guess i'm trying to get the components/weight/dimensions worked out before i get to building the keel and adding lead etc.
Cheers Nigel







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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 11:31 AM   
dreadrock


 

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Status: offline 		Oooops, missed some important info here, predominant break/application as in conditions will be fast, hollow and heavy with a nasty shorey that tends to suck dry (onto sand mostly, unlike fish's spot) in the 4-5' face range, so it'll need some get up and go. Any bigger and i'll be in the line up..lol, I hope it's going to be big enough to handle it??


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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 11:50 AM   
shev


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Dreadrock, I'm totally new here, but I'm about to go down the same road.  I've seen a few videos of surfers going crazy fast in flat water.   I'm hoping to make a board that has enough power to get me out of trouble - throttle control will be your friend.  It will also dramatically increase your run time.  The 2848 3900KV (as also said by Eddie) seems like a pretty cool starting point for me on 7.4v. I have a crap load of 2 cell batteries from touring cars... so it's just easier.  You can go a 4 cell, but you would generally lower your KV rating to compensate for the extra voltage .  Your C rating is your discharge capabilities of your batteries.  The higher the C rating, the more amps the motor can comfortably pull.  Lower C rating batteris (25 or under) 'may' puff, but then again, I've had plenty of race quality batteries puff  up also.  At the end of the day, you're playing in salt water, so I wouldn't go out and buy crazy good lipos.  Hobbyking do plenty of good Lipos at a great price.  go as high as you can in the mAh, this will also increase your run times.  The hobbyking servos should be fine also...and they're super cheap... $5 or less.  Just pull them apart and fill them with marine grease - water tight!   Do the same to your receiver.  Stops the rust on the contact pins and acts as a barrier to the salt water.

Do people go 4 cell battery for the weight?

the turnigy boat ESCs are pretty good - plastidipping the ends has helped my gear stay as good as the day I bought it. Once again, keeps the water out.  I went through a couple of speedies because of water intrusion (on water proof speedies!?!) or the capacitor rusing.

These are some ideas for electronics anyway, Dreadrock.  Based on previous knowledge, I'm leaning towards the 3900Kv on 7.4v or 3000Kv on 11.1v,   Cheap hobbyking servo (works fine in the jetboat and I've tried the more expensive options only for failure - the traxxas summit is a pretty good water proof servo though).  60A ESC should be fine, but the bigger, the more headroom.  I'll be getting the turnigy 120A because of price and motor possibilities.  It should run cooler too.

Hope this helps Dreadrock.


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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 12:34 PM   
itsfishi


 

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Status: offline 		Volts x amps equals watts ,higher volt batts lower amps better efficiency, less heat etc. I would not go with less than 3650 motor and 3s, I had the 28 size 3900kv on 2s to start, it's now in my jet boat, on 2s I recorded 90plus max amps on 4s 72max better for batts runtime heat etc heli guys are starting to go with higher volt 6s systems for efficiency runtime issues. To give you an idea my Nqd uses around 1000 odd watts max for what I like to do with 30 mm prop on 14.8v to do that on 7.4 you will need to pull 135amps. Others use that motor and like it so I guess it's what you want to do with it. Better to over do than under. Just my 2 cents
Later

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 4:27 PM   
RC HAWAIIAN STYLE



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Dreadrock.  


looking good ,you have shaped a few boards i can tell . in my custom boards i use Turnigy large 2000 & 2300kv, 120 amp speed control, Traxxis waterproof servo.  Here are some links to some of the items
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17700__XK3665_B_2300KV_Brushless_Inrunner.html#
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17697__XK4074_2000KV_Brushless_Inrunner.html these are large motors if your modelis 32in or bigger
ESC http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15133__Hobbyking_SS_Boat_Series_125A_ESC.html cheap no BEC
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8946__Turnigy_Marine_120A_Brushless_Boat_ESC.html has bec
brick shttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15022__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S_30C_Lipo_Pack_USA_Warehouse_.html good cheap batt

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8580__ZIPPY_Flightmax_5000mAh_4S1P_20C_.html not much puch ,but cheap


       maui john




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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 7:33 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi dreadrock - so you got the foam in hand then..................................

I like the peripheral lines of the actual shape = pretty similar with my second board. very authentic shape - nice !
If you are going to be taking on 'hollow waves' playing on the face in the hollow, up and down - I reckon you will need more tail rocker.

Some design consideration.

The 15 degree dead-rise of my board 'incorporates' the totality of the hull cross section - as apposed to the otherwise lower POD (second hull) added underneath the board to accommodate the motor etc..
If you visualized an imaginary V of a hull with pod - it could be as much as 25 degrees. Therefore ,the total running surface area of a pod board will be greater than a V hull of equal size - calculate the linear line length of the cross sectional shapes of the two hull shapes. Pods linear line is longer. So ! the pod boards hull surface drag will be greater - as well as its hydrodynamic drag, due to the dynamic shape of the pod. Resulting in more' load' in general - not to mention the obvious performance advantage of a V hull as apposed to a fairly flat hull, over chop and in turns.

It looks like you may have to fit a pod , as 40mm will be 'to shallow' for the motor (I estimate you will need a 3000kv/ 36mm diameter motor) needed for a 2.5kg set up. I will be running the 3900 kv motor (28mm) - my board only weighs 1,5 kg's - Remember that the motor has to be fitted at an angle equal to the thrust line of the drive shaft - to attain the correct thrust line to COG angle. If you fit the motor flat and hope to use a flex shaft to achieve the thrust angle , your more than likely wont get the thrust line below/in front of the COG , resulting in a board with a 'nose down' tendency - which produces 'hop' - you will need more hull to deck space. (add a 'pod' or 'more thickness' to establish the correct depth V.

The two main set backs I found with 'the pod' is that at speed, the board tends to come out of the water and runs on the pod - making the board unstable. (short and narrow)
The pod - in effect is a second hull - it has its own buoyancy potential, so in a way apposes the self righting as it wants to float- the bigger the pod the more it will want to float - more weight is therefore needed in/on a pod to self right the board.

With the V hull - the running surface is far more efficient overall - and - all of the internal running gear can be fitted 'lower' to the lowest point of the boards hull 'Cross section' (keel) resulting in a even lower overall COG, with less hull buoyancy potential apposing the self righting leverage ( hope I made sense)
I'll do some drawings if you need.

Keep up the build - before you know it - you will be on the next one.........................and the next............................and the next

To some - I know this all sounds like TMI ( to much information) - BUT - it all effects the overall performance and efficiency of the board whether we know about it or not - most all boards float and go forward - that a given- how much one considers, realizes and applies in the design and build, will simply result in how much one realizes and profits from the final product. INFORMATION is KEY ! - in all things

Regards
Dominic (YPC)









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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 8:52 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Fish

I was hoping to see Bro' shredding Cowries - is your board to fast /radical now to film with one hand......................................LOl

I hear what you are saying about the motor/battery relationship - What has to be considered upfront when selecting the power plant is "How much power (Watts) do you need to overcome the given load ( weight and drag of vessel) -at an efficient AMP draw.

Your board at 2.5 kg's is far better of with the lower Kv motor x greater Volts. Trying to run a higher kv motor x less Volts - pushing the same load, as you say, generate more HEAT.( bigger amp draw.)

Its quite a challenge 'chasing the ideal power plant whilst trying to balance it out to meet the ideal weight required to best match the power to load ratio.

A higher kv motor can only be considered if the LOAD ( weight/drag) will be some what less.

I'm going to run the 3900kv motor ( which I think is the same as my current 3600kv Hidral motor I am using) SET UP Total = 1.5 kg's (40% less)
I will be running 11.1 V (set with low timing and considering drag losses) , will give me 35000 RPM x 27 mm prop.
I want to reduce the rotational torque as much as possible ( especially with the V hull) yet still look for the acceleration and top end.

Some suggested relationships

1 kg = 4200 kv X 7.2 V (25mm prop)
1.5 kg = 3600 kv X 11.1 V (27mm Prop)
2 kg = 3000kv X 14.4 v ( 27mm prop)
2.5 kg = 2500 kv x 14.4 ( 30mm Prop)

Regards
Dominic (YPC)




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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 10:21 PM   
shev


 

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Status: offline 		That's awesome - some of the info I was after!  Thanks fellas!

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/25/2012 11:43 PM   
Hughengland



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Status: offline 		Got Sunday off from filming, so I hit the North Shore early with 2 ****. Small waves 3-4 feet.
Some kid found Sheila's head on the beach, so I glued it back on for this am session perfect.
My new Vee board (no keel) had first session in real waves. All worked great, small adjustment needed in weight adjustment.
Pictures show how I carry all to beach - 5 gal bucket fits what's needed.
Aloha

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 1:36 AM   
Cananzi



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that board looks awesome! Was there much difference in performance with the complete v bottom?  
as ypc has pointed out in his theory they should perform better. if theres a decent improvement i will definantly be switching over.

I notice sometimes you post pics and say 5ft but the pics look 10ft!!!  do you guys measure wave face or hawaiian style? wish we had more waves on the goldcoast like that.












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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 6:19 AM   
YPC


 

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From: Cape Towm, SOUTH AFRICA
Status: offline 		High Hugh !

LOL ................Just love your 5 Gallon bucket and PVC stand design - makes my 'Bro Caddy' look so 'OVER DESIGNED'.................I've .got to learn to keep it simple.......................!

Hi Cananzi - with regards to the V hull design - no credit to me - its not my theory - V hull design has been proven by the millions of V bottom hulls that have gone before me.
We are 'in essence' building a boat 'that hopefully' looks like a surfboard' and wanting it to be 'all things' - tall order !

An actual surfboard also applies the V bottom theory, mainly "when in turns" - The inner rail, that is been dug in - is effectively playing the part of a V bottoms keel. The more the surfer angles the board, the more effective the V effect is ( the deeper the keel) enabling tight, deep turns.
sketch a surfboard 'cross section' in a tight turn and you will see the natural V effect. The board is the outer dead-rise of the V - the inner rail is the keel (point of the V) - the water void is the opposite side of the V.

With our rc setups - we cant effectively shift the weight to 'tilt the flat board over and dig the rail in' - so - a fare degree of V in the rc set up hull enables the same tilt effect. In the turn the keel should give a degree of bite ( if it is deep enough by degrees and if there is enough weight concentrated on it) - 'the roll' should allow the hull to be pushed deeper into the water by the G - Forces present from the speed in the turn.

You dont need to wait for my board to hit the water = Watch a few well set up, submerged prop, FE V bottoms carving through the turns on a tight course on YouTube


Regards
Dominic (YPC)

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 6:56 AM   
Cananzi



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I am a lil skeptical about the v design hence why im curious but only becuase I think maui have set an extremely high benchmark performance wise with the original keel design. 

definantly looking forward to seeing some results tho footage would be awesome, as i said if they are improvement ill be giving a v hull a shot for sure.

how long till yours is in the water? keen to see these babies go!!!!





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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 8:43 AM   
Hughengland



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Status: offline 		Sunday day off and got in 5 bricks in morning session and another 5 bricks evening session. Mentally tired after riding what seemed like 100's of waves today.

My latest Vee bottom board does not have that much Vee (must measure it one day.....) as I wanted to keep the "real surfboard look" without making a boat with a surfer on it.
Some of the intended Vee was lost in shaping & I am glad it did, because my board looks very surfboard like with low volume, hard edge rails for quick water release & self righting.
I shaped in quite a bit of tail rocker to keep it loose on the wave face and turns. Did not hurt my acceleration & speed that much.
My board almost did self righting without any weights added. Today I was moving weights around inside the hull to see how it affected the different wave shapes.
I am coming to the conclusion that I will need to add weights on big waves, just to make it down the faces and remove weights when the waves are under 8ft (we measure face height)
I know that John's boards have a quite a bit of vee and smallish keel & that they out surf & out perform any board I have seen.

Time to put the rc toys away for a week of filming for Director of Titanic & The Abyss - should be fun!
Let's all shape some Vee bottoms without keels and see where we end up...............
Aloha

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 10:31 AM   
YPC


 

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Just want to 'clear the air' - if I am reading between the lines correctly !

Nothing personal ever meant in my 'theorizing' and tech comments shared - No intention to put any individuals achievements down. I respect all individuals work and contribution ,in all things - Just sharing proven facts and realized experience - no fiction.

I am always looking to discover what makes 'boats' work ' that much better in there intended environment' - and to then share this knowledge with whom ever feels it may benefit them / interest them - its 'my thing'. Put out there for others to do with it as they please.

My time , advise, knowledge and experience is willingly shared FREE !

Recently Itsfishi followed some of my 'free advise' with regards to a thrust/cg matter and is now enjoying the benefits of i twith his NQD board - it all hear on the forum - free - for all to profit.

The concept of the V hull - as mentioned earlier - is the best yet proven 'all round' hull design for a vessel traveling on water, especially choppy water.
To shape a rc board that would look like a 'real surfboard' would not be difficult - every ones doing it- but - it would not work as well in the actual surf environment or perform the way we want it to - given the fact that we cant control the required weight distribution variables needed to emulate a 'real surfers ability's. I could get the surfer to paddle - if I wanted to...................................... but dont know about ducking under the white water ?..........................................

It may 'cut straight to the heart' when I call a rc surfboard 'a boat' - but - that's what it is - in essence. ( to me at least) anything that floats and carry's an object,l is a boat.

My absolute pleasure in this instance - is to design and build a rc surfer ( 'a boat') "sharing the experience" that can do most all that we want it to do in the surf - float - have great acceleration - propel itself up to 50 km/h plus - ride stable - ride smooth - ride nose up - self right effectively - turn sharp on hollow waves - punch through waves - jump high - land well - be seen effectively - be power efficient - be cost effective - be reliable - be robust - emulate a real surfer riding the wave -look as realistic to scale as possible, in the water and on the beach.

To achieve the above lengthy list - one will need to deviate form the original surfboard plan - unfortunately.

Being a 'Specialized rc boat designer and manufacturer' for the past umpteen decades may cause some to think that I am purely sharing all this info just to promote myself and to perhaps benefit by future sales.
Simply not true - if I was self concerned (selfish) - I would keep most of this insightful info to myself - I share it purely to benefit those who seek it - chose to consider it - and chose to apply it - finally - benefit from it

Its my absolute pleasure !

If ! and when ! I do decide to manufacture and retail a production RTS (READY TO SURF) product - I assure you ! - its performance ability's and scale look will speak volumes !

Regards
Dominic (YPC)

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 12:59 PM   
Cananzi



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Status: offline 		Dom

I hope you havent taken my posts the wrong way. I do appreciate all the very useful information and theory and i have not taken any of your opinions to heart , everyone has opinions. the cg/thrust thing is a very good mod i also did this mod with a few of my first boards that i had and i am glad you help fishi with it. I am just simply sharing my results ,opinions and experience that my boards have brought me.


I didnt mean to sound negitive about the v hull. I was just implying how well MAUI boards run and that i am skeptical about a v hull surfing better, didnt mean to offend you or hugh or anyone trying a v hull.
i will probly be trying one also if i see that they are worth doing hence me wanting to see how they go and see results . theory is one thing that cant be ignored but also putting things in to prac can change alot.

like i said i cant wait to see these v hulls go hopefully with good results.

keep the info coming!!!!  like you said ...........free knowledge!!!!

:-)




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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 2:10 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Cananzi !

Absolutely ! 'NO OFFENCE TAKEN' -All is is good

I only want to ensure that 'all' understand my genuine intention on this forum.

I am fortunate enough to be able to immerse myself 'most days' in the things a really enjoy doing - one of them now being 'rc surfing' - and I simply love sharing all I know, think, consider and happen to discover with 'whoever' on the forum. I know what its like when you start out with a project and hungry for info ! as much as you can get.
I owe much of my knowledge to those who opened their minds to me - over my years of rc boating - not many I might add.

So ! - does it look like a boat ? - or - a surfboard ? ....................................................LOL........ my kids reckon its a surfboard for sure !.........................................LOL

Customs have advised me that my parcel will be cleared by Wednesday - so we will get wet this coming weekend.

Regards
Dominic (YPC)

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 3:46 PM   
Saildoggie



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Status: offline 		Wow, a LOT has been going on, took a last minute trip o the Caribbean, 10 days of sailing in the British Virgin Islands aboard our normal charter, galeaux, a 50' Voyage cat. 

We were invited aboard by her owners, their guests had cancelled, brought along my Nephew, Sgt. Roscoe active duty USAF and his girl T Bird, also Sgt. active duty USAF, what a trip!

Finally have by bits ordered from Hobby King ages being shipped...back to building again soon.

Unreal all the cool boards everybody has been building!

Here is a link to trip pix and vid's what a blast!
(corrected link)
http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/saildoggie/BVI%20312%20Painkiller%20Ops%20aboard%20Galeaux/

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/26/2012 4:42 PM   
RC HAWAIIAN STYLE



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 we thought you moved to the Caribbean  ,, good to hear your post      maui john


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RE: RC Surfer - 3/27/2012 7:10 AM   
kitekook


 

Posts: 316
Score: 100
Joined: 12/7/2006
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Looks like I still can make the hull smaller(not as deep) by 1/2 inch...




This one should hit the water in a couple of days....just in time for some good waves according to Surfline.com




edit: changed the photo...last one had a weird angle that made the motor look off to the right.

< Message edited by kitekook -- 3/27/2012 3:55 PM >

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RE: RC Surfer - 3/27/2012 10:19 AM   
dreadrock


 

Posts: 41
Score: 100
Joined: 7/5/2010
Last Login: 5/25/2013
From: adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		G'day all,
 Cheers for all the help with regards to the electrics/motor selection etc.
Ok so it's shaped (and yes with tail rocker in there too), glassed now i've got to make some decisions on the running gear side of it.
The poor little thing had a run in with an angry belt sander early in the piece (my bad i was cheating ..lol) so it shrank somewhat a result, it's now 710 long x 180wide x 40mm thick, oh well it's the first of...............?? haha yes the addiction is already kicking in i want to start another without the mistakes i've made in this one..lol. I've gone with a fairly hefty v in the bottom also so it should be interesting to see how it goes when i eventualy get it finished. No pod/keel yet, the board weighs in at 436gms.  Back to the self righting formula i'm down to 1.6kg..cool
I've come up against the limitations of the uv cure resign, no working at night....doh, oh well need to sleep some time i guess.

John, when making the hatch cover you say to use cellephane, is that the harder crinkly sounding stuff or just lunch wrap, cling/seran/glad wrap?
Cheers Nigel


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RE: RC Surfer - 3/27/2012 10:38 AM   
Cananzi



Posts: 343
Score: 101
Joined: 10/3/2010
Last Login: 9/27/2012
From: Goldcoast QLD, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		dread


baking paper works also if you cant get cellephane.


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http://goldcoastrcsurfers-com.webs.com/

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