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RE: RC Surfer - 11/13/2012 5:05 PM   
K-H2o


 

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From: Haiku, HI, USA
Status: offline 		 So- Don't ask me what I did with the money my mom gave me for acting lessions.  Thanks John for taking a lot of time to make that vid.  
  YPC- running a thrust changer on the prop would work as well there are numerous ways to try to accomplish an attitude adjuster, It seems easy till you try to make it.   Actually John uses an incredibly small fin and gets great action on his board. what you need  depends on the bottom shape of the board.
   Aloha, Karl  

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/13/2012 6:22 PM   
YPC


 

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From: Cape Towm, SOUTH AFRICA
Status: offline 		Agreed Karl - most single fins do work well - and to a fare degree, can throw the board around quite effortlessly, depending, as you say, on the set up/design of the individual board.

Seb made some added head way to the single fin by adding the trim foil - but as you mention - with the bigger boards - the foil needs to be more of a wing - which may add to much drag and effect the ride in the vertical plane.

What I would really like to know is -if any of the 'Custom Guys' have ever tried the Bi-Fin design on any of their boards - as from what I have researched so far - looking back on all the various designs- I have not seen any from the US..... only Cananzi in OZ - running them on some of his custom boards and commenting on its performance advantages.....

Brendon's design of the Bi-Fin certainly has a few very unique added features compared to the single fin......which I reckon could only add value to any already 'awesome board'.......

If one hasn't tried it .......I really recommend it.......its very easy to make - all of 30 minutes at worst.

Next time MJ visits your lab........I would love to see and hear more about the actual 'Tech Stuff' you employ in your board designs.....

Looking forward to seeing it all 'In Action'......................


Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 9:36 AM   
surfcurls



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Status: offline 		YPC

I Agree,

The Wombarra Bi-fin design is the optimal Choice. OZ Has Fin Design Down. Heck, Look what Simon Anderson Contributed (The Inventor Of The Tri Fin Thruster)
I tried many others, Like BB's Glassed Single Fin (was Break Proof), Ed's Tri Fins (Looked cool, didn't seem to add trim value) and Spenser's Brass Single Fin
But what worked The Best was the Bi-fin in my opinion.

The only flaw The Kyosho / NQD Bi Fin had, was that the stem would break.
Most all of us solved that issue with using a Stainless Steel Bolt Stem
Surfcurls took it further to make the Bi-fin with Carbon Fiber So It's solid as the rock / reef that it might challenge ...

Simon designed The Tri Fin 30 + years Ago ...
Note The "Aloha Racks". Do they Still Exist ? All We Use Now Is Soft Racks ...

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 11:23 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Curls.......LOL......... finally ! we have found something 'we agree' upon.....LOL......I'm going to print that 'reply' and put it on the wall in my workshop.......LOL...

The OZ's do seem to have a thing for fins.....Brendon mentioned to me a while back that the Bi-Fin was his idea, we just never had a chance to discuss his take on the actual overall design.

When one examines the 'features' the Bi-Fin offers.......it offers whole lot of 'Things' going on below the water......VERY SIMPLY !......For myself - I definitely notice things like- A more stable board on the water at speed and on vertical faces ( even though I have a 2kg lite board) the fin holds it down - The board leans over more and holds the thrust in the tight turns better - The board responds smoother to turning/transitions rail to rail - pulls the tail down/nose up in turns...eliminates high speed 'toppling turns ( on the narrower boards)....etc

I like the Carbon route...........I'm still playing with size/shape/foil angles etc......the nice thing is, once you have 'your' ideal Bi-Fin - it relatively easy to reproduce in carbon, using the original as the mold........Use a small sandwich bag and pump to vacuum it while it cures, and it will be even more Bullet Proof.........



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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 1:01 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Chaps........... Gabriel Madina adding to the 'Flips'...........will have to figure away to pull this one........its pretty neat.

His 95 000 plus views in less than 24 hrs .....just pips my video average............LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cz9mnAdY_TA

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 1:47 PM   
bearcave


 

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YPC ... I fitted the origi kyosho bi-fin on my single fin kyosho last run for a test and the board bounced bad at speed but tended to be easier to handle on a wave espec at slower speeds.. bit like riding a motorbike with the back brake on a bit to help stabilize everything....

Anyway what are your thoughts regardeing the trim tabs on a bi-fin... was thinkin the angle would be speed related and without a hull to suit the downforce at any given speed maybe an adjustable downforce tab is more the go......

(bi-fins do make it way easy to get the prop shaft out for a re-grease without dismantling the rudder setup but hey...lol) 

BTW..... I have seen pics of bi-fins without tabs but was wondering if there was anyone out there in rcsurfer land who has run a single fin board then tried an angled bi-fin without the trim tabs on the same board.... ? 



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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 4:42 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Bearcave.....did you get to enjoy the eclipse......I saw it on CNN......it was amazing........seems you OZ's turned it into a good party.....Yeah !

Interesting feed back..........the original Kyhoso board, from what I have seen....comes out with the Bi-Fin and most of the videos I have seen of the OZ originators shredding the Kyhoso board, seem to be running the Bi-Fin.....so I am sure, with some tweaking , it will work even better. I am always amazed at the Original Kyhoso video's that were produced by Whambara.......amazing stuff.

You may need to add a few grams upfront to move the CG forward, which will reduce the 'bounce'......I also dont think that the boards need to be driven as fast as we currently run them...Every hull has a 'hull' speed.....after which it will start climbing out of the water simply due to the thrust and aerodynamic lift that gets under the hull. If you seek to remedy that, you simply end up being counter productive.

I reckon the 'trim tabs' (foils) play a major part in helping to generate the type of desired 'Yaw' turn effect (dig the tail - lean & turn) as we are trying to emulate an actual surfer. I am kind of fixated with getting the surfer to be more 3 dimensional........tail digging in - surfer leaning -cambering into the turn.

I have run bi- fins 'without' the tabs and the result is that one losses much of the 'Yaw'

On the straight - at high speed - the negative foils (tabs) do pull the tail down into the water and start to generate a kind of rhythmic bounce - but frankly -as you say - its not really an issue on the actual wave.......as for most of it, the boards CG will change when ridding on a 'Burm' ( face of the wave)......so -as I have learnt- flat water is very different to being on the face...............no surfer won a comp for scoring points while paddling out............LOL

In-fact - I recently started running my board with more weight in the 'TAIL' ( 150 g's) it keeps the tail 'HEAVY' and adds some punch in the TAIL, in the turns. The added weight tail seems to generate a outward centrifugal force, almost like a surfer powering a solid tail turn/slide.......the combination of the Bi-Fin and the added weight, really seems to have added 'more dimension' to Bro's surfing style......Blah Blah Blah............LOL

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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< Message edited by YPC -- 11/14/2012 5:04 PM >

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 5:48 PM   
kitekook


 

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Status: offline 		The claim of a '2kg lite board' a couple posts back got me thinking....

How 'lite' is my Surfer?

A little research lead me to Wikipedia and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law

The square-cube law (or cube-square law) is a mathematical principle, applied in a variety of scientific fields, which describes the relationship between the volume and the area as the shape's size increases or decreases. It was first described in 1638 by Galileo Galilei in his Two New Sciences.

Loosely speaking this principle states that, as a shape grows in size, its volume grows faster than its area. When applied to the real world this principle has many implications which are important in fields ranging from mechanical engineering to biomechanics.....

and now to our passion of ****!




The square-cube law can be stated as follows:
When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier.




where is the original volume, is the new volume, is the original length and is the new length




Sooooooo.....

34 in...My board
28 in...'2kg lite' board


34/28 = 1.21 (21% bigger)



v(34 inch)= 2 * (34/28)cubed
= 2 * 1.79
= 3.58

1 kg = 2.2 lbs (I'm American so I think better with imperial measurements)

3.58 * 2.2 = 7.87lbs


7.87 lbs !


No wonder I get such long runtimes from my Maui Rc Surfer!

We are even lighter than the "2kg lite board"

RTS mine weighs in at 6.85 lbs

that with 5000mAh 65C 4s Lipos....and the added weight of repairs to my 'second hand/former demo/agent' board!

With run times in the mid 20's and gravity our only limiting factor...



Maui Rc Surfer reaching for the stars!

Building some of the LIGHTEST **** on the Planet!








Heck! The last board I made weighed in at 7.6 lbs....here I thought my boards were so HEAVY...

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 6:13 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Kite........not sure what the motivation - point or the reason for the 'calculation' comparison is -BUT - in fairness to all - to truly validate your point - you should also 'compare' your power source id 'run time is the deciding factor'

You are running a 4s - whereas - I run a 3s - both boards achieving 20 minutes - so effectively - my board is drawing slightly less POWER (amps) than yours - meaning it is 'more efficient.....i.e. If I had to run your kv motor - and 4s power plant - I would more than likely run for around 30 minutes.......

Size (volume) - ALSO- adds surface area - so surface DRAG is increased exponentially - I assure you - Gravity is not your only enemy - it may just be your only friend when falling down the face of a wave keeping your bigger board and surfer from flipping over.........

and we are not even taking into account the 'Bang for your Buck' factor....

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 11/14/2012 8:20 PM   
kitekook


 

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Status: offline 		My apologies DOM....Of Course you are right...edit...sorry got carried away....


I was wondering about my own surfers and shared the finding...which surprised me.
I think it's great that we can compare sizes and weights together...kinda like a Golf Handicap.


I think the Maui Board KILLS all others! All you have to do is watch the videos.
In a different league all together!



This in not an attack on any Surfer... just an opinion based on the videos presented and more importantly...my own experiences.

I used to think my Kyosho , and then my NQD, ripped it up!...hahaha
I had all the latest mods...hahaha
Not even close to what I am experiencing these days.

Having now made Surfers in several sizes/shapes...36, 34, 32, 29 1/2, 28.and 26 inches (and here you all thought I was building 22 x 1 = 1 board... all this time.) its called R&D,I have made round tails, step tails, fish, and now the pin tail. If you knew me, you would know I get bored too easily to keep making the first one over and over...ok, the first 10 were the same design...but I was trying to get he process down...since then it has been a quest to make a better Surfer...each one has been better than the last...

I think it is more a function of size than anything else. Maybe Maui John went through the same process...his 34 inch size seems to be the sweet spot for me.

The smaller boards are just to squirrely for me.

Most smaller Surfers look like a cork bobbing on the water to me rather than a Surfer carving waves. Others just bounce around given any bump on the water. Of course there are exceptions...that ripper KH20 in Maui....and Curlz' Kyosho come to mind...others have since retired..at least for now.


I enjoy the more GS (Giant Slalom) style in my Surfers...come to think of it I did in Skiing as well.

Power Surfing!Power Skiing!

]Trick riding...was always for the guys that did not know how to Ski Powder...

There were a lot of them for sure, must be fun I guess...just not for a Big Mountain/Powder Hound.

< Message edited by kitekook -- 11/15/2012 3:41 AM >

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 7:06 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Kite......comparisons are 'good'........as long as all things are considered...and the objective is clear.

I am happy for you, on the one hand, that you have found your ideal 'perfection' in Maui's 'Bad Apple' - on the other hand - I am really puzzled, that after building 17 odd really nice looking boards - having watched the Maui DIY build video I guess 'many times' and having 'spent time with John', that you yourself have not been able to realise 'your ideal board'.

As for the video comparisons........pure personal opinion...in the eye of the beholder.......there are 'many many' video's of various rcSurfing makes of boards, that are absolutely amazing.

I personally rate the OZ Wambara Kyhoso video's as the ultimate record of rcSurfing........
The boards surf and look like an authentic surfer............perhaps a little to small in size - but most impressive in all- 'to me'

IMO - The 'wider' & 'bigger' boards do obviously tend to surf more stable, having a greater platform - and are able to take on bigger waves and white water- but have a very 2 dimensional (flat) look on the wave.....very boat like.......far less authentic....

rcSurfing for me is best suited surfing in 2 - 4 ft face........after that it like a real surfer looking to ride Mavericks......

The thing is ....after all is said and done........'is to find a board that you are 'very happy with' and as I think 'Jocktime once said' - "Go to the beach - that's what we do"and Surf the Amps out of it.................

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 7:09 AM   
InDaTube


 

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Status: online 		Hi,

On the topic of RC Surfer board weights:

Our Capo Crew quiver
2012 Maui ****:

#1 Mark's Dude 35" / 7.1 lbs
#2 InDaTubeLarry 35" / 8.1 lbs
#3 Steve's Dude 35" / 8.5 lbs

InDaTubeLarry
San Clemente


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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 7:16 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Indatube.......thanks for that info.......I love figures...........all types........LOL

Is that with the battery pack and surfer onboard - all ready to surf ?

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 7:32 AM   
InDaTube


 

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Status: online 		Yes, this weights are RTS
5000 4s battery and surfer installed. 

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 8:44 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Indatube.....What are the average "run times' and what is the 'Amp recharge value' after a run.

With that info - we can calculate the average Watts draw per board - It would be interesting to see the Watt draw variance between the boards - and compare it to the hull designs.

This info could help formulate calculations, working toward the "MAVERICK DREAM MACHINE"

For Example -To simply compare the two boards in Kites example - both with equal run times of 20 minutes - But different cell capacity's 3s & 4s respectively - we can try to make an assumption of how many Watts will need per foot of board size.......

3s Board: 700mm - 28" - just over 2ft

5000mA's /20 minutes = 15 Amps/hour
15A x 11.1 v = 166.5 Watts


4s Board: 875mm - 35" - just under 3 ft

5000 mA's /20 minutes = 15 Amps/hour
15A X 14.4 v = 216 Watts



SO ! - A 'rough assumption' could be that for every 1ft of board size one would need 75 Watts of power - so a 4ft board could requite around 300 Watts on average. If we want to achieve a 20 minute run time using 5000mA's - we will need to run 5s 18.5v Packs).......5 ft board 375 Watts =6s /22.2

My guesstimate for the "Maverick Dream machine" would be a 5ft Gun - driven by a 750 kv motor - 6s 22 v


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< Message edited by YPC -- 11/15/2012 9:30 AM >

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 9:19 AM   
InDaTube


 

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Status: online 		I only know the runtimes for InDaTubeLarry.

I use Zippy LiPo's 5000 4s / 30c batteries.
They charge to 16.80v and come in at about 14v
If the surf is small and I don't have to run around alot I can get 45 min out of them. That's mostly waiting for waves between sets.
If the session is larger and I have to throttle out and thru lots of white water and use more speed, I'm right at 30 min.
These times are when I use a 432 prop. I have a 435 prop installed lately and the runtimes are just about the same. And I love that Prop.

John and I chatted about design and decided to make my board a little bit wider and fuller than the other two Capo Crew boards.

Mark's is very light and thin...... cool looking and works great.
Steve's is shaped like Mark's but is a touch thicker and very strong glass job on the board & figure.

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 9:46 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Indatube.........that is great info......

What is the actual 'AMP replacement' when you recharge ? - do you run the board until the 'low voltage cutoff' LVC kicks in......

Impressive run times - I'm learning to be more conservative with my Amps between waves - waiting for the right wave and slow throttling back out after a ride, does offer more Amps for 'more wave riding'

Bro'rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 9:50 AM   
InDaTube


 

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Status: online 		Sometimes I hit the LVC but most often I bring him in before.
I really do conserve power when I can. I throttle out very slowly when I can and wait for waves. If one pops up to the right or left, I then motor over and rip.
I'm not sure what you mean by AMP replacement. 

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 12:06 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		When you are 'recharging' your battery .........the amps that were used are restored into the battery .......most charges at the end of the charging cycle will indicate the total amount of amps that were needed to be restored.....yours would be around 4500mA's to 5000mA's if you run down to the LVC depending on the LVC voltage setting........Blah Blah Blaah.....LOL.

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 2:50 PM   
bearcave


 

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Status: offline 		hey YPC regareding post 5732.... yep thats what i was thinkin but was just thinkin.... origi kyosho fin back in the cupboard for the moment and omg have you seen how expensive they are to get these days... Loose as a goose with the single fin for me at the moment lol.

BTW for anyone interested I am getting very close to getting my weirdo helmet cam happening and hope to post somethin soon... for better or worse it will be something to share with all and hopefully someone else out there will take a diff aspect of it all and make it better.

Likeing the knowledge and facts beeing thrown around now with yourself and InDaTube.... always info here on RCU hey!

btw I was workin when the eclipse was happenin and the sky I was seein was way cloudy anyway.... 

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 3:23 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Bearcave......while its still in one piece.....make a few carbon fins from it.......polish the original with some RAM wax release agent ...........layer the inside with a few good fine carbon cloth layers soaked up in epoxy - and you will have Bi- Fins that will last you a life time............

Your single fin will feel 'loser' as it will tend to 'lift the tail' and 'dip the nose' in the turn, which will initiate a quicker/sharper turn.......You could move the CG forward to achieve similar response with the Bi-Fin - or - increase the steering throw..........

All this 'info' is great to be able to make some basic assumptions and calculations in respect to performance and economics........I'll definitely step up to a 6s unit set up if I chose to 'go big'................I starting to like the idea of a 4ft board......starting to think it may be even more fun all round.....with the right design I reckon it could feature well in surf from 2ft - up....we'll seeeee !

I'm looking forward to seeing some of your footage....... rcSurfing whilst trying to keep your head stable ? I reckon will be a unique challenge on its own to overcome...............

We have a Westerly Off- Shore breeze - 2-4 ft face surf predicted for to-morrow - so hopefully we'll have another 'cool session ! '

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 11/15/2012 11:20 PM   
surfcurls



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Status: offline 		OK, I'm lost on the calculations...

In basic terms wouldn't a 2Kg board weigh 4.4Lb regardless of the length ?

Kite: when you mention that the bigger boards are lighter, you must mean in respect to the size difference ?

All in all, it seems you still have to have a set up geared to propel the weight of the actual board regardless of the proportional weight

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/16/2012 5:52 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Curls.....

As with actual surf boards - paddling a 'Long Board' is easier than paddling a 'Short Board' - if the payload is kept consistant - however - with regards to a bigger rcSurfer - the actual weight is increased by its mere size and the added lead to provide the righting action,( remember - the greater the boards volume the more weight you need to right it) then the size of the power-plant needs to be increased to drive it, increasing the weight further....making the bigger rcSurfer less efficient than a smaller rcSurfer.

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/16/2012 8:48 AM   
surfcurls



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Status: offline 		Thanks YPC,

That clears a bit of the Calc Questions.

Low KV ?

Why Should we Look to a lower KV for the Mav Board.
For My 2Kg Boards We run a 3000 Kv

What does a lower KV at 750 achieve for a bigger board ?

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RE: RC Surfer - 11/16/2012 9:47 AM   
YPC


 

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From: Cape Towm, SOUTH AFRICA
Status: offline 		Hi Curls.....

The lower kv motor will greatly 'increase' the actual power/torque output ... allowing you to be able to have easier options..
Running a 750 kv motor on a 6s set up will still give you good speed.....and.....if you needed more speed, the 750 kv motor would easily be able to be steeped up to run a bigger pitch prop or a greater cell capacity battery, if need be.

Here's the thing !

The one 'real unknown' is exactly how heavy the board is going to need to be, especially on the day - so you want to have power options.....more than speed.
My gut tells me, to manage the intended size of wave - wind conditions and overall surface of such a wave.....you will need some serious weight.....30 kg's plus.... that's heavy.

The board could easily realise speeds down the face of 40mph plus.......remember - aerodynamics only really becomes effective over 25 mph - so for the most of it, we dont experience to much of it adversely with our smaller boards.....and yet, wind lift is an an issue for us to overcome.How much more so will it be an issue for that size of board, at the speed - also having to overcome the surface conditions.

If you go for a higher kv motor- you may have the desired speed - BUT - if you have to ADD WEIGHT - the motor and battery combo may not be able handle the overall load.

Whereas - with a low kv motor...it will better handle greater weight/load - AND -if you need more speed....you can simply increase the pitch or increase the cell capacity........
Changing a prop or battery pack in a Zodiac is much easier than changing the motor.....You are not going to have any options of 'trying it out' prior to the actual day....

The Right Options....is what you will need....for it to be a success

Bro rcSurfer. ...
Share the STOKE !



< Message edited by YPC -- 11/16/2012 10:08 AM >

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(in reply to surfcurls)
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