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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 12:37 AM   
RC Surfer


 

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From: Carlsbad, CA, USA
Status: offline 		You are right the flex shaft has a double duty, the fact that the drive shaft is floating and at witch point does the foreward thrust actually carrys the load? If you had too mch of a gap at the Dog ear thrust washer at the stuffing tube then the motor would carry the load and the flex shaft would arch or bow until the dog ear comes in contact with the stuffing tube and puts all the load on the motor. The stuffing box, I would like to think this is where the thrust of the prop is powering the board, and as the dog ear washer wears the stuffing box down if you had no gap, as it wears down then the motor thrust bearing would start taking on the load, so yes dual perpose. I not speeking litteraly about 1mm of gap but probly only a few thousands of an inch. When I reset the gap every time I grease the shaft the amount of material worn off the stuffing box tube the drive shaft end then would go in the motor coupler further. If you never had to take out the drive shaft to grease it then it would ware the stuffig box tube end enough that the drive shaft would bow and  where ever it would come in contact, it would cause more drag, in your case if I'm hearing you right it would ware through the teflon tube then through the stuffing box tube. On the motor end of the stuffing box I only use a 3/4 inch of piece of teflon to act like a bearing. I like how Dom has tapered the drive dog keeping the water flow around the shaft, I'm using a .130 flex with a 3/16 drive shaft, in my case the dog ear isn't too much bigger than the stuffing box so I haven't noticed water leaks with out the full legnth teflon tube I'm getting alot more grease in my stuffing box maybe this is the difference. As far as the motor thrust bearing, this keeps the load off the motor bearings and onto the can and helps with caring the load.
Hope this helps Later BB

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 12:57 AM   
surfcurls



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Status: offline 		I don't like The Teflon, Doing a step down in brass is the ticket like YPC says.
I decided to make the step down bushings for the .150 flex just at the ends to allow maximum marine grease
surrounding the exposed flex within the stuff tube.

On The Offshore Elec site, They had mentioned the
Contraction & Expansion of the flex, and to allow space for it.

As for water traveling up the shaft tube, it's inevitable since it is spinning counter clockwise.
Even with the straight shaft from Kyosho, it has the same issue. I'm Sure BB would agree ...

< Message edited by surfcurls -- 1/7/2013 6:51 AM >

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 5:29 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi BB..........all the best for 2013

If your Flex shaft winding is in the opposite direction to a standard drillbit, you have a counter rotating flex shaft. A standard flex shaft rotates in the same direction as a drill bit.
If you are using a counter rotating flex shaft you may run the risk of 'unwinding' the flex shaft if the load is great enough.

The gap at the drive dog end depends on the overall length of the flrx shaft - 2-3 mm is a standard.
The flex shaft when under load should be as solid as a solid shaft - so their is very little 'bowing' if any.

The ideal would be a square end coupler at the motor end which would allow the flex shaft to float within the coupler rather than push and pull.

BB - if you are running a thrust washer on the motor side AND you say your stuffing tube is wearing down on the drive shaft end, then it may be that the flex shaft is pulling in under load ( not enough gap) - otherwise you should not have ware at the drive shaft end)

Indatube - you will be amazed how much a flex shaft 'shortens' under load - 2 -3 mm may seem like allot - but chances are that it is taken up when you stab the power.
Happy to hear it made a difference.

Curls - rather contraction than expansion

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 6:52 AM   
surfcurls



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Status: offline 		YCP,

Point well taken, It's actually both that need the gap. Expand and contract

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 7:08 AM   
InDaTube


 

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Status: offline 		Why then, if you have a gap between the rear stuffing tube housing and the dog do you need a thrust washer between the two? 

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 8:58 AM   
bearcave


 

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Real inboard engine boats spend much time working out where the thrust point is wether motor or V drive setup for the best piont inside the hull (not outboards).... drag cars use rear end links attached to the chassis in various configurations to acheive the correct weight transfer when launching.
 
As a flex shaft only transmits tourque i guess the thrust point has to be at the end of the prop tube.... mechanicaly speaking would imagine it would be a wind-up (spinning water in) rather than wind-out situation (water out)....
Running thrust at the motor or end of prop tube, will this change the performance of an rc surfer hull..... very interested in any thoughts.

I like the different ways many try to seal the shaft have tried a few myself. YPC and Karl seem to have it sorted best but have noticed that when moving the water flow from large to small works like a venturi and not much gets in..... when stopped water goes up anything anyway.

Btw maui surfers........ Hotdoggin short boardin green flash lookin good!

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 10:24 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Indatube

When the flex shaft is under torque (at its shortest) and you have the gap width just right, the thrust washer should just be touching against the drive shaft housing face.
Try spraying you thrust washer a color and check it for ware after a surf session. If it is not showing signs of ware then you can reduce the Gap.
This may all sound anal - because it is - however - it all adds up to having an efficient set up with the least load.

Personally - I reckon the flex shaft and thrust washers are overkill......perhaps a band aid for poor alignment at best.

I run a very simple solid spring steel shaft 'without' any thrust washers either end. To date, the bearings within the motor have handled the load of the forward thrust without any issue or sign of ware.Surface drive props may warrant a thrust washer due to the single blade of the prop hitting the water and causing a hammering effect forward -BUT -Think about this - all the electric brushless plane motors, dragging some big planes around the sky without any thrust washers - a fully submerged marine prop will act much the same as a plane prop.

Bearcave -About the thrust point !...........Thrust from the prop is effectively a driving force through a straight line. The position of the prop will effect the trim of the vessel - BUT- the THRUST is not delivered at a particular point. In the case of inboards and V drives, the consideration is where the thrust line is in relation to the CG of the craft. You could have a prop at various positions along the length of the keel yet still maintain the same thrust line.

The pictures below are of an awesome coupler I have sourced to run with my solid shaft - it will smooth the slightest misalignment out perfectly and absorb any forward thrust through the center rubber housing. 20mm L X 16mm diameter. A miniature coupler like one would find in a Jet ski set up.

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 11:57 AM   
bearcave


 

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Thanks for that info I get the thrust line thing much better now but adding another thought...... In a theoretical world, if the prop was way up the front of the hull compared to way out the back, on the same thrust line, would the only real difference be the board reacting more like a front wheel drive than a rear wheel drive car?

btw I see you liked stand up jet-skiing and was wondering if you have contemplated doing a jet board.... or is that a way different journey for another time.. lol  

Liked the thought about the aero engine bearings...... and could you please tell where those awesome flex couplers can be found...

bearcave

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 12:48 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Howzit Bearcave................The year is kicking off with some great discussion........sometimes its mind boggling just how much goes into just about anything to get it to work properly, even a Yo -Yo has certain criteria........LOL

As long as the prop can be positioned within the projected thrust line 'theoretically' it should be the same - however ! - practically the CG and Lift will move therefore all things will change.

In your example it would only be possible if the thrust was paralleled or negative- otherwise the forward positioned prop would more than likely be set out of the water.

In Gas Inboard racing - some racers run a thrust washer on the drive shaft face - some eliminate the load of a thrust washer and run the dog drive well clear of the drive shaft face, placing the forward drive thrust directly on the bearings of the motor - there is NO Noticeable difference between the boats thrust line performance.
Both run Flex shafts to overcome the angle of the mounted motor in relation to the surface drive unit.
The thought that the 'flex shaft' will bow in the stuffing tube if the dog drive does not push up against the drive shaft housing face is understandable - BUT - in reality with most instillations being relatively straight ( less than 15 degrees) it is not a problem. A flex shaft develops serious rigidity ( stiffness) under torque.

As for the COUPLING - Its one of those "I have a Friend ' who works with them..............LOL - let me know if you would like one or two.......I'll get some prices.

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 6:33 PM   
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                       the reason we use flex shafts  on the maui rc surf boards is because we have twice the power and twice the size and weight, i used a  straight shaft when i was using 2 and 3 cell lipos ,, when we went to 4 and 5 cell lipo and a bigger prop  the 3/16 th shaft bent right at the end , to much power for a straight shaft ,,    plus the teflon keeps the noise down, ( a noisy rc surfer is annoying and the real surfers dont like the noise, ) i grease every time i go out, and never get  water thru  the stuffing tube, i agree for the smaller lighter  boards  with half the  power and weight the  straight shaft is great,   but if you want to go big in hawaii  our california you better have equipment that can handle ,   



                             maui john 


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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 7:37 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Maui John........LOL

Looks like you went on a marine 4 X 4 excursion over a reef with that prop and shaft..........LOL

Seeing that prop nut you are using, having a bigger OD than the props hub will also effect the performance of the prop. Its always best to purchase an actual prop nut by Octura or Prather or who ever......one that matches the hub OD.

I reckon the carbon fiber props are 'the better way to go'.......no sharpening and balancing required........they break before anything else........... work very well.......much safer around bathers/surfers. Their are great CF props available in 3/16 size on the web.

I reckon I should spend some time in the future sharing 'how to' better shape the stock prop's down for greater performance. That prop in the picture could shed quite a bit of face area which would make it far more efficient, as well as do with some sharpening and balancing.
Balancing a beryllium copper or stainless prop is 'crucial' - at 20 000 plus rpm if it is out of balance ( which is the case with all) it can generate serious vibrations that could even damage the electronics in the esc /RX or servo.

When I step up to 4s or bigger I would use a 1/4" shaft which would run the standard lead teflon bushes well - then turn it down to 3/16 at the end for the prop to fit.

With my current 1/8 shafts I now use 'Spring Steel' rather than Stainless, as the Stainless bends quite easy at the end, if the prop is badly fowled by debris in the water

I am not a fan of 'to much grease' in the stuffing tube - even with our gas boats - packed grease in the stuffing tube sucks the power out of a motor. A thin film of grease in the bushing area should be suffice to seal the set up.

My solid shaft runs free within the actual stuffing tube from the bushing point - only at the very end of the stuffing tube, on the motor side, does the ID step down to 3/16 to center the shaft.
I use the bigger size ID stuffing tube as a type of sump and inject a thick gearbox oil into it which works well to continually lube the bushing.

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 9:28 PM   
K-H2o


 

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    Maui john  actually uses a coat-hanger that he streightened out,  Then he welded on a lug nut he found at the beach.  Get that in a soda stray from McDonalds (used).   If you put enough greese in it it will work on 3 cells, but yu can see it can't handle 5  
  
    I'm all about streight shafts on Bronze bushings. but I use Hardend Stainless shafts. In stainless tubes, Lots of Greese and eventhough they are hardened you can still cut um.   I don't know about rusty spring steel.

    Aloha, Karlsharks

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/7/2013 11:29 PM   
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that's funny Karl 
 
                   ypc    i totally agree if i was racing in a pond,  but the guys you have my **** are not pro racers like you, they want to use them every day an not do any work on them, the flex shaft works like a culcth,  when it  hits a  rocks sand kelp what ever it well absorb the blow,    i agree it is not the most efficient, but it is very durable



                                                                                   maui john    


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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 1:32 AM   
surfcurls



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Status: offline 		Some great ideas to go green.

I'm thinking of duct taping some seaweed and plastic bags together for my new figure and using some sea grass
epoxied to sea shells so it can have The look of hair flowing. Looking to use crab claws for hands.

The deck will be secured by ocean tar found in the gulf after the BP oil spill
The new board will be shaped from foam bouys that washed up from the Japan Tsunami

Still looking for an Am radio washed up from Gilligans Island, and an old payphone
to make the Tx / Rx.

Looking into solder wire for a Shaft, The coat hangers seem like overkill, I can easily solder a lug nut to it.
Gonna cut up an old hub cap I found and sharpen it for props .
Heck I can even use the Mercedes Emblem that was on it, for a new logo !

It's fun to have a laugh in here now and then.
Heck I'm Curly.






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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:17 AM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Guys...........

Its really a case of 'what floats your boat'.........I just enjoy sharing info /experience and hearing what others prefer and have experienced.

Karl.....- Spring steel has memory (flex) which is great and it is no worse than maintaining a flex shaft........they both need preventative corrosive measures.......not hard to add some oil. Plus - very easy and inexpensive to replace.........scale of economics.

I added some pics of the spring steel drive shaft from Board #3........looking pretty good for the use it has had.

Muai....I have raced with flex shafts most of my life........understand them like the back of my hand......they to have their shortcomings ( excuse the pun) and weakness's.

IMO
The thing is with the rcSurfer that does not require the drive shaft to travel through a varied angle....its so much simpler/cheaper to use a solid shaft than having to bother sourcing/purchasing a flex shaft with a drive shaft end. A well fitted solid shaft can also run more efficiently with less load. I have never known a flex shaft to save any of my props when impacting an obstacle, once a flex shaft is under load, it is as rigid as a solid shaft .I reckon a correct solid shaft set up will outlast a flex shaft set up- as well as operate more efficiently.

THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS TO ALL IN OZ BATTLING THE HEAT AND BLAZE......................HOPE IT ALL COMES UNDER CONTROL SOON AND THAT ALL WHO ARE MISSING ARE FOUND.

Bro rcSurfer. ...
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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 10:37 AM   
bearcave


 

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Status: offline 		I think its safe to say everyone has their own ideas on how they prefer to paddle their own canoes..... as it should be and probably will always be.... lol
Well done guys the knowledge and practical experiences getting thrown around is great.

YPC.... Thanks for the thoughts about our fire season... the usual heat this time of year in Oz has got some fires going early... especially in Tasy (the little island hangin of the bottom of mainland) but so far not too many dead just major property loss.... there will be more fires but just like eskimo's are always aware of polar bears eating them now and then its another one of them things humans all over the world live with within the forces of nature, or other nasty humans doing bad things to them..... anyway nice thoughts mate....

btw its 9.30pm here in my fibro house and still 95 degrees F (35C)... got to 105F while workin today, think its time to go back to the cave lol but would realy like to get some of those couplings but understand if they are slightly in house.... what i have works ok at moment and have spare's but the steel ones are noisy and with both motors needing new bearings my boards sound like buzz saws haha!....always lookin for a better way of doing it but, hence why i watch this forum!

On a more humerous note....Hey Curly, I still use Gilligans AM radio and haha, I think i know what happened to Slash's head.... LOL

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 10:54 AM   
bearcave


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YPC

I reckon I should spend some time in the future sharing 'how to' better shape the stock prop's down for greater performance. That prop in the picture could shed quite a bit of face area which would make it far more efficient, as well as do with some sharpening and balancing.
Balancing a beryllium copper or stainless prop is 'crucial' - at 20 000 plus rpm if it is out of balance ( which is the case with all) it can generate serious vibrations that could even damage the electronics in the esc /RX or servo.


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I spent ages doing the above on an Octura prop (i could have spent $30 getting a prop guy to do it but had to have a go myself) and it came up ok...... was so keen to give it a run i just put a normal nut on the end and, well, it didn't go any better than the plastic one but........it fell off!

Yes i am a dickhead haha but maybe it was a blessing in disguise. The plastic/carbon prop being the weak link and breaking before bending/breaking the other bits is bearable for me atm. 

Regards bear in unbearable heat.... lol 

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:10 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Bearcave....as you say - working a prop is 'hard work'......... yet if done correctly, can be worth the time spent.

Some may not know this - BUT - the Beryllium Copper most Octura props are made of is very dangerous and can lead to cancer.
ALWAYS wear a dust mask when shaping metal props.

Modifying a prop may sound a tad overkill for rcsurfing - BUT - for starters if a 'metal' prop is run unbalanced ( which they all are standard out of the pack) it will sure do some sort of damage over time, especially to the electronics and bushing.

Sharpening the prop is also a must, or it will simply load up the motor and generate 'prop walk' which is a pulling of the tail to one side due to the rotation ( to the the left) - often tail lift can also become an issue due to a blunt prop, as well as premature cavitation.

The trailing edges of each prop blade should also be squared of neatly to ensure that the water breaks away from the blade rather than flow around to the back of the blade.

Besides the above MUST's........there is quite a bit one can do to a prop blade, be it Nylon or Metal to enhance the acceleration - reduce forward drag - torque roll - bite........etc.

This is an area I will spend more time on this year, now having the basic rcSurfer construction behind myself.

For the rcSurfer....plastic PP / carbon fiber props are great. For starters the Cost and Safety is tops. I have raced carbon props up to 70mm in diameter on my Gas outboards.....they are great props and have their own off the shelf advantages. Being lighter props they allow for much quicker acceleration and having thinner prop blades presents far less drag through the water. The blade itself is very easy to reshape to experiment with various shapes and cut a ways - being inexspesive allows for free'r poetic licence.......LOL

BEST OF ALL - as you say, when ever you hit something - it's simply a quick replacement of the prop - without the risk of damage to the drive train , mounts - even perhaps the motor shaft.

IMO
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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:25 PM   
billybongo63


 

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Aloha all!
MJ, Green Flash looks killer, so short and wide it looks like a skimboard I used to ride!
I love reading and re-reading all the tech stuff, so thank you all for creating a 240+ page manual!

Servo questions?
1) does anyone use tape? I noticed a little wiggle under load.
2) how strong should it be? I know thinking has progressed over the life of this thread.
3) name brand or knock off? I found these on e-bay
<noscript>

> >

 

 
Mouse here to zoom in
 
 
Have one to sell? Sell it yourself

FT5679M Low profile Waterproof HV high-speed digital servo for 1/10 EP/GP Car


Power 6V 7.4V
Speed 0.09sec/60° 0.07sec/60°
Torque 7.5kg.cm/104.34 oz.in 9.2 kg.cm/127.99 oz.in
Weight 53g(1.87oz)
Size 40.1*20.0*28.5 mm
Application 1/10 EP/GP Car

Digital, metal gears, fast ,waterproof, could be run with axis vertical, any thoughts?

Thanks for all the schooling-Billybongo


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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:41 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Billybongo......what cell count battery and board are you wanting to run it in ?
What is the price of the one above ?
Bro !

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:51 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey YPC!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180994260242?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
$45.99 US with free shipping.
looking at upgrading the Kyosho servo, as well as one for the new board Surfcurls is making for me.
Both running 3s, Kyosho = 3060kv, new board to be determined.
As I learn more, I hope to build the 3rd board of my quiver, have a few crazy design ideas I will be throwing out here as I go,
Just want to make sure they are some what viable so I don't sound to Lolo!
Thanks for your input-Billybongo


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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:55 PM   
YPC


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Curls........now I know where you draw your inspiration from...........LOL

Just think of the tens of 1000's of old Surfboards taking up space around the world........

Bro!

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RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 6:56 PM   
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Posts: 63
Score: 100
Joined: 7/26/2008
Last Login: 5/17/2013
From: Carlsbad, CA, USA
Status: offline 		In all my RC adventures plug and play is the altamate goal! My gliders so far is #1 untill I get too crazy and I barry it into the ground or hit another plane! A real close second is my sail boat only because i have to ajust the rigging, because of transporting (setting up the mast and tearing it down) it to the lake. Afrore a few years of trial and error got the surfer to point of being bone dry run aftore run did it become #3. When I started to see water in the hatch, it was time to invetigate,

But when someone writes about getting water through the drive shaft and someone says its the twist in your flex drive sucking in the water in and looking at my set up I deduct this would be imposible if the twist rotation is in the rotating direction out pushing grease and water out so maybe they will have to find a different manufature that makes the twist in the right direction. Now that being said if you don't maintanence the drive shaft often enough by the fact that you are using the stuffing box with grease as a seal and the twist pushes enough grease out, now water will invade the hatch. A simple metaphor would be like a concrete cement truck with its drum on a fixed angle w/fixed curved blade fins inside the drum rotating in one direction keeping the concrete via the fins pushing down keeping it in, then when you want to pour the concrete out of the drum and since the drum is in a stationary angle you reverse the rotation of the drum and the fins in the drum pushes the concrete up and out the end and down the shoot and concrete on the ground emptening the drum of concrete. Hope this helps alittle.
Later Dudes BB

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(in reply to bearcave)
       Post #: 6023

RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 7:03 PM   
YPC


 

Posts: 1550
Score: 145
Joined: 5/21/2009
Last Login: 5/18/2013
From: Cape Towm, SOUTH AFRICA
Status: offline 		Hey Billybongo......the servo specs look ok......I would like a tad more speed on the servo. It will certainly 'manup' to the task.
Dont be fooled by the 'water proof' claim - more like splash proof- like the ESC claims.
The price seems rather high for what it is worth and whatt is required - you could run a stock standard servo for the Kyhoso set up and reap the same rewards for $10 or less.

Bro rcSurfer. ...
Share the STOKE !



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(in reply to billybongo63)
       Post #: 6024

RE: RC Surfer - 1/8/2013 9:44 PM   
billybongo63


 

Posts: 14
Score: 100
Joined: 11/1/2012
Last Login: 5/4/2013
From: oceanside, OR, USA
Status: offline 		Yo Bro!

Thanks for the input, but unless I am missing something, (and believe what I read on the interweb),
isn't .09 seconds pretty quick for under $50, considering it's also digital and metal gears?

Oregon update:
Weather is warmer (50*) and wetter, so I've gone back to working on  my 1/10th scale toyota crawlers, 1 trailfinder pick up, 1 hj-45 franken-build, and a wraith basher with fj cruiser styling cues. I promise to work on setting up a way to get pictures on here!

-Billybongo




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If the waves were 3-4 feet, and I was only 1 foot, I would be trippin''!

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(in reply to YPC)
       Post #: 6025

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