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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Engine Manufacturers Direct Support Forum >> Jett Engineering Support >> Mounting pipes with O-ring header
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Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 3/18/2007 2:01:05 AM   
Build-n-flyer-RCU



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Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Evans, GA, USA
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I received a pair of Jett FIRE 50's with pipes a couple of weeks ago and I have been working on installing them in my Duellist. Dubb custom-tuned the nitro pipes for me and they connect to the engine by slipping over an O-ring on the header.

I finally got a chance to put one on the stand today and fired it up. I was very impressed by the smooth operation and power but have some questions. My experience with tuned exhaust is limited- I've used tuned mufflers but never an actual tuned pipe. And turning this kind of RPM is a whole new ball game for me!

The instructions say to strap the pipe down at its widest part instead of at the end. I used plastic wire ties to do this like I have seen in pictures. But vibration along with pressure in the pipe wanted to push it off the header (it didn't actually come off but it certainly didn't seem very secure!). So what is the best way to secure the pipe? How about gluing the pipe down with RTV along with the wire ties? And would putting some hi-temp RTV in the joint along with the O-ring help the seal?

Per Dub the pipes are tuned to 17000 RPM on a 10x6 prop. I added 3% Castor to 15% Coolpower since Morgan fuel is just about all I can get around here and mounted an APC 10x6. I tried to keep it rich the first run as per the instructions and found that the engine would only come on the pipe if the needle was set pretty close to peak. The next run I managed to go past peak and got it hot (blew the plug) before realizing that 16700 was all it was going to do.

Next I changed the prop to a Bolly 9.5x7. The engine seemed to like this prop better and peaked out around 17400. I ran a couple of tanks with the Bolly keeping the mixture set a bit below this to finish the break-in.

Should I expect better performance than I got with the 10x6? Should I put it back on and give it another try?

For the maiden flight on the plane I will be much more concerned with thrust and throttle response than speed. Should I try a 10x5 or 9.5x6 to run up more RPM and maximize thrust? The plane should weigh in at around 12 lbs and propping the engines for thrust will help make sure it gets off the ground OK. Also is there such a thing as too small a prop?

I may go ahead and order up one of Jett's test stands before running the second engine to get everything as solid as I can on my rig...

Walt





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VQ P-61, H9 150 P-51, D-F Decathalon, NEA Twin Air, Duellist, Nobler, GP 60 Extra, Arrow racer, LT-40.. the hanger is full!!
       Post #: 1

RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 3/19/2007 3:11:59 PM   
bob27s



Posts: 4637
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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Hi Walt......

You will love those engines ----- they are running very well.

The engines are still new. The break-in process must be completed, per the instructions.

For those engines, put them on a test stand, and utilize a 9x6 or 9x7 prop. Sounds like you utilized the Bolley 9.5x7 - that is a bit higher load, appears to have allowed the correct operating conditions. If you were able to run at 17,000, while rich, that would have been ok.

You want to run the engines, slightly rich, but running at the rpm target. Start the engines, take them up to 17,000-17,200 rpm and run them there (again, this will be a slightly rich mixture) with the lighter prop for about 15 minutes.

Once the initial break-in process is complete, the engines will run anywhere from 16,500 to 17,500 at peak with an APC 10x6 once installed - this is perfect. Sometimes rpm will vary 200-300 rpm just from location, humidity, temperature, fuel - phase of moon.... stuff like that. So do not worry. Using a bit lighter prop for the first few flights will help. RPM is your friend. The engines will gain in rpm as they get more time on them too. One thing you will notice, is that the pipes will cause the engines to run at the tuned point - so they may actually synch up very well in flight when at full throttle.

Just avoid getting the engines lean. That is about the only thing that can hurt them. Find the peak rpm (briefly) and back off 400-500 rpm from that peak. If it gets past peak and gets hot, shut it off. ..... let it cool down completely before trying again.

For first flights on the plane, if you have a pair of those 9.5x7 Bolley props ..... use those. They pull very well, and really let the engine unload. You can also use the 10x5 prop if you wish.

As for the pipe mount, usually a nylon tie works ok, but alone it does not cut it. There must be some sort of saddle to rest in, usually with a rubber or silicone pad on it that can get a slight grip on the pipe.

This one here is a good example. This is a dave brown pipe mount. Notice where it is located - just aft of the pressure fitting This way the pipe can not slide aft - pressure fitting prevents that. Also, the rubber pad located on the mounting saddle keeps the pipe secure and prevents rotation.


One other way that does sometimes help with the o-ring mounts is to capture the pipe aft of the diverant section ... something like this


And it is possible to mount off of the pipe exhaust tube end, it is just the least prefered.... some of the whiplash and diamond dust guys prefer this, mainly since it is a convenient place to mount it. Just tends to provide the least stability. If it works out for the Duellist installation


Example pipe mounts
http://www.dbproducts.com/store/tpmt.htm
Personally, I prefer to use isolator mounts for the pipes when possible.
http://www.dbproducts.com/store/hclp.htm

Another trick Ive learned - when using the tie-wraps, sometimes you can use a piece of fuel tubing over the tie wrap - Ive done this to avoid scratching the pipe up, and sometimes it can help get a bit better grip on things.

I hope this is helpful...

Bob Brassell


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Bob Brassell
Jett Engineering - Engine Mfg Support Forum Host

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RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 3/19/2007 7:32:16 PM   
Build-n-flyer-RCU



Posts: 1049
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Evans, GA, USA
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Thanks Bob for all the good info! As usual I am sure that I will understand exactly how to do it right after making mistakes and learning from them.

The initial break-in is probably most of the way complete for the first engine, but I have yet to run the second. And the first one could probably still use some more run time.

So I will continue to work off the test stand for a bit.

I think I will try making a dished saddle out of ply to match the pipe shape and coat it with RTV, then fix it to the stand and strap the pipe down against the saddle with a tie-wrap. This would make for a neat installation on the plane if it works OK.

The Bolly 9.5x7 seemed to be small enough for break-in, but close to the edge. I will begin with a 9x6 or 9x7 for the second engine.

Walt

_____________________________

VQ P-61, H9 150 P-51, D-F Decathalon, NEA Twin Air, Duellist, Nobler, GP 60 Extra, Arrow racer, LT-40.. the hanger is full!!

(in reply to bob27s)
       Post #: 3

RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 3/27/2007 5:58:23 PM   
bob27s



Posts: 4637
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From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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Hi Walt....

Just wanted to follow up a bit ... how did you make out on the pipe mount?


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Bob Brassell
Jett Engineering - Engine Mfg Support Forum Host

(in reply to Build-n-flyer-RCU)
       Post #: 4

RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 3/28/2007 1:35:12 AM   
Build-n-flyer-RCU



Posts: 1049
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Evans, GA, USA
Status: offline
Bob,

Thanks for asking. None of the pipe mounts in the links look like they would work well on my Duellist. But I think I have a good plan mapped out now.

I got a new Jett engine test stand and bolted it down to a heavy piece of 2x8 lumber to make sure there were no vibration issues with the test board or mount. I "hollowed out" a small piece of light ply so it fits the shape of the pipe at its center, then actually "glued" the pipe into the hollow with some clear silicone and used a tie-wrap to make sure it stayed secure. Then I fixed the ply at the proper location and height to the test board with some wood screws. I ran a couple of tanks of fuel through the engine and it worked perfectly. No excessive vibration, no leakage from the o-ring and everything stayed perfectly secure. And the clear silicone pulled away easily to release the pipe afterward.

So unless you can think of any potential problems, this is my basic plan for mounting the pipes on the plane. It already has "saddles" above the wing that the pipes are meant to fit into. I will epoxy some light ply with hollows to fit my pipes (like my test part) into the saddles, and use silicone and a tie wrap to secure each pipe in place. I figure it will take a month or so to finish mounting the engines and to get everything else done to my satisfaction, then we'll see how the plane flies!

Absolutely no problems running the engine this time. And now that I know how to set things up and what to expect, the initial break-in of the second engine should be a breeze.

Walt

_____________________________

VQ P-61, H9 150 P-51, D-F Decathalon, NEA Twin Air, Duellist, Nobler, GP 60 Extra, Arrow racer, LT-40.. the hanger is full!!

(in reply to bob27s)
       Post #: 5

RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 4/6/2007 7:57:25 AM   
Build-n-flyer-RCU



Posts: 1049
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Evans, GA, USA
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Bob, I broke in the second engine this afternoon. This time everything went very smoothly.

I started by running two tanks using a 9x6 APC. This allowed me to run rich at 17,000 RPM while fully on the pipe. I did try leaning it out during the second tank to around 18,000 for a few seconds, and I am sure that I still did not reach the peak.

Then I ran a tank with the same Bolly 9.5x7 that I used for the first engine. Performance was exactly the same as for the first engine with the peak right at 17,400 RPM. So it looks like the engines are very well matched which will be ideal for my twin.

Some prop selection questions...

Seeing the engines mounted on the plane I have decided that 9.5" is the maximum diameter that I can go with because of ground clearance. So the Bolly 9.5x7 is my baseline prop. Since the plane will weight 12+ lbs I really don't want to go any smaller on the diameter.

One thing I have noticed is that the engines don't come on the pipe completely until almost 17,000 RPM and the needle is a bit touchy until they go through the transition. Since the peak is only 400 RPM higher than this with the 9.5x7, there is not much room to set them rich at least for initial flights without being in the transition zone.

So I am thinking of trying a 9.5x6, at least to start with. Am I right in thinking that I should be able to set the engines at 17,000 RPM or maybe a little more with this prop and still be safely on the rich side? If so, would you recommend APC or Bolly?

Walt

_____________________________

VQ P-61, H9 150 P-51, D-F Decathalon, NEA Twin Air, Duellist, Nobler, GP 60 Extra, Arrow racer, LT-40.. the hanger is full!!

(in reply to Build-n-flyer-RCU)
       Post #: 6

RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 4/6/2007 4:33:33 PM   
bob27s



Posts: 4637
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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Hi Walt.....

The 9.5x6 is fine for the first flight. Either the bolly or APC will work well. The loading on these is similar to the APC 10x6 props. They perform about the same too.

You may notice the engines getting "fat" in the air once the props unload - that just means the pipe is "set too long" and the engines are under-propped. No worry... they will remain reliable. You may find that the aircraft flys great with the 9.5x6 props - and the engines are happy. In that case - dont change a thing

Do not worry quite as much about where the stage point is for the pipe. They actually pre-stage down around 15,000 rpm --- and will hit another note as they get up over 16500. So it is nearly impossible to precisely set the engines between 16,500 and 17,000 - that is the pipe step.

Just find the peak rpm, back off 400 rpm (or thereabouts, probably a 1/8 - 1/4 turn on the needle) for flight for the first flight. You may have to watch quickly if you use a tack - as the engine slows it trickles off the pipe and then drops quickly - that is ok... leave it there. No need to go much beyond this on the rich side. Too rich and you may find the engines will want to load up when throttling through midrange.

dont worry about the weight of the plane vs the prop size. My guess is your initial acceleration will be just fine


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Jett Engineering - Engine Mfg Support Forum Host

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RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 5/20/2007 11:24:56 PM   
Build-n-flyer-RCU



Posts: 1049
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Evans, GA, USA
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Bob,

My Duellist flies!

You are right take-off power is not a problem.

Getting the engines to come up on the pipes without sagging too much was tricky. Luckily the airplane is very forgiving and engine synch is not a problem once in the air. And at full throttle they sound great! Take-offs were "interesting" though.

The engines are obviously still breaking in. With the Bolly 9.5x7 props they were peaking just below 18,000 RPM and I tried to set them around 17,400 for flight. This was probably about 1/2 turn off peak.

No problems with the pipe mounts, etc. which was what started this post.

Take a look at the video and let me know what you think. Just scroll down the page, the Duellist video is a the bottom.

Video page

By the way the plane flies great! We eased into high speed passes and it was rock stable. I finally opened it up all the way and got a little flutter so I have a little work to do. But it looks like the plane will be able to handle the speed.

Walt

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_____________________________

VQ P-61, H9 150 P-51, D-F Decathalon, NEA Twin Air, Duellist, Nobler, GP 60 Extra, Arrow racer, LT-40.. the hanger is full!!

(in reply to bob27s)
       Post #: 8

RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 5/21/2007 1:32:13 PM   
bob27s



Posts: 4637
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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Outstanding !! I am glad to hear it flys well

Sounds like the engines are running well too. RPM you noted are right on the mark.

Be sure to seal the hinge gaps on all of the control surfaces (if not done already). Will keep the flutter monster away.

Clearing the pipes at full throttle before takeoff is usually a good idea in any case. That was common practice in my ole pattern days.

Give the engines a some more flight time time first, but you may want to EVERY so slightly richen the lowspeed. Sounds like one of the engine may be just a tiny bit lean going through midrange on throttle up. Hard to tell from the video - sounds like it drops of quickly - does not catch and stumbles, rather than loading up. Again, don't mess with it quite yet.

In fact, you may want to try those 9.5x6 props before trying any tweeks too - might get rid of the issue entirely.

If you have time, post the project over in the extreme speed forum. The guys over there eat this stuff up

The plane looks excellent - Video is great....

Contiuned good luck with the aircraft !

And when time permits, email me a few photos - one with you and the plane if possible too. bob27s@hotmail.com

Bob Brassell

< Message edited by bob27s -- 5/21/2007 1:41:07 PM >



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Bob Brassell
Jett Engineering - Engine Mfg Support Forum Host

(in reply to Build-n-flyer-RCU)
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RE: Mounting pipes with O-ring header - 5/21/2007 11:31:55 PM   
Build-n-flyer-RCU



Posts: 1049
Joined: 9/26/2002
From: Evans, GA, USA
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Yes you are right about one of the engines wanting to stumble a bit. The right engine starts the transition onto the pipes just over 1/2 throttle. The left one doesn't want to transition until the carb is most of the way open. Adjusting the hs needle doesn't help. But I'm not sure whether its just a break-in thing or whether the low end needs adjusting.

The two pics I posted are the only ones I have right now. I'll try to remember to get one with me in the picture next time I bring it out.

Walt

< Message edited by Build-n-flyer-RCU -- 5/22/2007 11:46:23 AM >


_____________________________

VQ P-61, H9 150 P-51, D-F Decathalon, NEA Twin Air, Duellist, Nobler, GP 60 Extra, Arrow racer, LT-40.. the hanger is full!!

(in reply to bob27s)
       Post #: 10

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