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Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/25/2007 9:36 PM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi All,

At Toledo last year, and a few times since, I've spoken to pylon pilots who were interested in an automated scoring system. I had a chance yesterday to sit down and think through some of the issues. As I had hoped, the telemetry system we have now, with some cosmetic/packaging changes and lots of software changes, would work well. The "wireless dashboard" we manufacture (shown below) would be set up to indicate lap times, total time, etc. Probably more interestingly, it would be set up to alert when cuts happen.

The onboard unit weighs about 40 grams (1.5 oz). The units would just drop into the planes, with just a connection to the RX (or separate battery) for power. Each plane in the air would need the onboard unit and dashboard, so I assume that a club would require 3-6 systems to be operational for the events. The units are also have data loggers, so the race and results can be downloaded to a laptop for automatic tabulation.

The software/firmware that we'd need to do is quite a project, and will require solving some fun technical issues, so I want to judge interest before we undertake this. Let me know your thoughts!





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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/25/2007 10:11 PM   
dclancey


 

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Status: offline 		This would be a blessing for all pylon fliers. Our local club could do away with trying to find workers, or in our case hiring help. Please keep us informed about your progress.

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/25/2007 11:56 PM   
stand-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		Removing the unit and downloading each unit into a computer would probably be a deal breaker. You'd have to remove your wing before and after each event. Recording the cuts would be interesting, but the NMPRA timer program already does that. The pilots need the cuts in real time as once they have cut they have decisions to make as to how they will fly the rest of the course. So the cuts beed to be posted where the pilot and caller can see them while racing.

To get around the problem of disassembling aircraft you'd need to have at least two sets (8) of these things so that the next heat isn't sitting on the start finish line with their wings off, waiting for the previous heat to take apart their aircraft and download the results to a computer.

Just some thoughts,
SD

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 1:01 AM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback!

You would definitely need to remove the wing to add/remove the unit before/after the flight, unless pilots purchased their own personal units. We'd be ok with this. It would not necessarily be a requirement to download the data to a PC - the handheld unit can do all calculations, and perhaps just the handheld units could be connected to the PC to download each pilot's results.


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 2:40 AM   
dwbebens


 

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Status: offline 		It would be good if your onboard units could download wirelessly while the race is in progress.

The previous replies bring up some very real issues.

In the RC Car events, they use little transponders that are fitted to each car. The race organizers supply these units. They are very tiny and need no external power; they have their own internal rechargeable battery. Many of the racers buy their own. Each one has it's own unique digital code. Would it possible to adopt this kind of technology to pylon racing. Having enough range for pylon racing probably would be the biggest problem.

Doug Bebensee

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 3:42 AM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi Doug,

Thanks for the feedback. The onboard unit is wirelessly transmitting down to the handheld unit, and the handheld unit is doing all the calculations.

Transponders would not supply cut detection functionality, I believe, and would have several other problems, such as range. The system we would do is GPS based, FYI.


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 3:53 AM   
garys


 

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Status: offline 		Something else to remember is extras would be needed due to crashes, which depending on the price, could be prohibitive. If a club were to buy them, who pays for it when it crashes? Sounds like a risk most clubs probably wouldn't want to take.

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 6:37 AM   
daven



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Status: offline 		I guess we would all need to stop crashing

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 8:23 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		What is the estimated cost?

To what extent are they crash-resistant?

Ken Erickson
San Antonio

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 8:56 AM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi Ken,

I believe cost would be about $500 total for the onboard system + dashboard receiver, software, etc., for a single unit. We can certainly work out signifcant qty discounts for clubs, however.

Our stuff is pretty tough. It's relatively rare that we have a unit come back physically damaged - one of them free-fell from about a mile up with a bunch of weight on top of it. :-)
Most things can be repaired anyway, unless you hook it up to a 50v pack by mistake.

< Message edited by billpa -- 3/26/2007 8:58 AM >


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/26/2007 10:46 AM   
smitty9969


 

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Status: offline 		Sounds like a good product for practice..

Timer .. cuts..

If it clean planes, put me down for 2..

Smitty

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 3:26 AM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi Smitty,

We would hope the device will be beneficial for both practice and actual event scoring.

If you buy two, we will include a free bottle of Windex. :-)


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 5:16 AM   
gunfighter


 

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Status: offline 		That would be $500.00 per plane?

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 6:09 AM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi Gunfighter,

It would be $500 per system, before any club discounts. I am assuming that the club would need 2x the # of systems as it allows simultaneous flyers.


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 7:52 AM   
Ken Erickson



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Status: offline 		That would put it out of the range of anything we would do.

But, couldn't one receiving unit catch from a number of airborn units. (different heats, of course). As we race in four lanes, four receiving units could receive from a number of the same coded airborn units. Just could not turn yours on until you were at the starting line.

Still, that would be $2000.00 plus cost of the other airborne units.

Still . .

Ken Erickson

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 8:08 AM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi Ken,

Yes, that would absolutely work. I also wonder if it would be possible to move the units from plane to plane between races, to further save costs. This is also not factoring in volume discounts, further things we can adjust in the design to reduce price, etc.

But, is this scoring system needed? That's the overriding factor.


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 8:43 AM   
garys


 

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Status: offline 		Since the system is based on GPS, what is the accuracy of it? I can see issues in the more competitive classes if the system is recording cuts based on GPS positioning and its accuracy.

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 4:07 PM   
daven



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Status: offline 		In my opinion, having to remove the units between heats would make the system prohibitive for our needs. Add to that the midairs, and you would be going through units left and right.

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 5:27 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		I don't think the market would support it. Too much hassle, WAY to expensive. Gary's point on accuracy unless you have some form of e-differential. On the other hand, the chip set to do this will only get cheaper over time.

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 5:37 PM   
Jim Duda



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Status: offline 		"But, is this scoring system needed? That's the overriding factor."

In a word - YES! Anything we can do to automate (and remove the human error factor and manpower) would be desireable. Seems like we have the technology and GPS positioning is only going to get more accurate over time. In fact, I wonder how it presently (GPS) compares to human judgement as to cut accuracy?

If we can get the costs down and solve the transponder issue (attaching/detaching to/from planes between heats) I'd be all for it.

< Message edited by Jim Duda -- 3/27/2007 5:45 PM >

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 5:47 PM   
daven



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Status: offline 		Yes Jim, you are absolutely correct. This system, or something similar is definately needed.

The problem is, is that its too expensive (right now) to start down this road, but if we don't start going down the road, it will never evolve into something viable.

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 6:09 PM   
Red Baron Dave



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Status: offline 		Here is my .02cents

Pylons are raced at the Club level in 2 locations locally each with very similar "SWRA" type rules (hint: Reno is VERY close! )

There is a total of 3 breakout timed classes and heats of 4/5 are common with up to 3 brackets per class.
There is usally about 2 minutes between the last plane landing and the first plane of the next heat taking off (30 racers is common) - so scratch the idea about 'sharing' units between planes.
Cost would be an issue, as these events are used as money makers for the Clubs for the year

Individually I could see a couple of the trailered 'money and speed first at all costs' guys jumping on board as just another toy in the box and cool sticker to add under the canopy.

My guess is that the traveling Unlimited teams is your best bet if you wanted a 'race standard'

Finally we do need to go down this road, improve, simpifly and make it a replacement for the stopwatch and corner 'minders'

Cheers and good luck
Red Baron Dave

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 7:48 PM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi All,

Thanks for all the great feedback. Clearly cost is the biggest issue we face, per the posts so far. I gave this some thought last night and think that reducing the cost to around $300 per complete system is possible, by eliminating the data logging and expandability features. But, come to think of it, I doubt if these features would be critical for this environment. This also reduces the weight by about 3/4 ounce.

The airborne unit would come in at about $200, and based on the feedback above, there would be 2 airborne units needed per "dashboard." If max 4 planes are in the air at once, that puts the club's cost at around $2k. Is this still astronomically expensive for clubs, though?

Re GPS accuracy, I've done some "thought experiments" with our system and believe we can get excellent cut detection with some clever firmware programming.


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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 8:23 PM   
Scorpion Racing



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Status: offline 		Just a thought Bill, would it be possible to design a system that would put a device on each pylon, start/finish and other places needed and just have the onboard unit use these "transponders" instead of GPS? That would eliminate the satilite linking (or sometimes lack of...) and give a lot more acuracy since you are flying around the transponder, or thru a break-beam line (turn 1 and the start/finish line). I know you can get a GPS within fractions of an inch (we use them in our surveying) but would a transponder system work and be a little more cost effective?

Just an idea, I don't know if it would work...

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RE: Eagle Tree pylon scoring system - any interest? - 3/27/2007 8:36 PM   
billpa



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Status: offline 		Hi Scott,

That might work, and might be the best solution if it could be made to work, in terms of cost. It's likely not something Eagle Tree would do, because we have no "leverage" of existing products to bring to the table. Since the market is so specialized, I hope is that we can leverage our existing technologies (mostly) to get a solid system out there without a big investment in hardware R&D.

< Message edited by billpa -- 3/27/2007 8:37 PM >


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