RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 3/31/2007 11:48:38 PM

DonStegall

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline

Stan,

There is a little history to support lowering the engine. The MidWest Four Star 40 racing group allows lowering the engine 1/4" for better fuel pickup.

Dub made some TT Pro .40 mounts and they could enhance the engine performance.

BTW, I like your new RCU identifier.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO - http://www.rcpro.org - http://www.rcpylon.com

(in reply to StanDouglas)

Post #: 26

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 3/31/2007 11:56:49 PM

HighPlains

Posts: 2640
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
Status: offline

Actually Stanley, lowering the engine also lowers the drag slightly. But thanks for playing.

_____________________________

In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to DonStegall)

Post #: 27

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/1/2007 2:53:21 AM

Druce

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Edmonton, AB, CANADA
Status: offline

WELL....
if I can't lower my motor a 1\4 " then I'll raise my tank up a 1\4 " maybe even use large fuel tubing, the florescent kind and really go fast.... and I won't tell anyone!!

(in reply to DonStegall)

Post #: 28

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/1/2007 5:31:19 AM

Oldbob

Posts: 158
Joined: 6/29/2005
From: georgetown, TX, USA
Status: online

Don, since you put it that way, it’s like getting three planes for the price of two. This would go along with the low cost concept of Club 40 Racing. Therefore interchangeable wing and fuselage is fine so long as they are parts from the same manufacture, are of the same design and are a direct fit (bolt on) requiring no modifications to make them fit.

Bob

(in reply to Druce)

Post #: 29

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/1/2007 1:10:32 PM

DonStegall

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline

Bob,

That is exactly the point. The wings are fully interchangable. They have the same airfoil, are the same size, and have the same mounting dimensions. The LA Racer 40 is just a nicer looking Sky Raider Mach II.

In fact, If a guy broke his wing on an SRM2, anyone wiith eiher a SRM2 or an LR40 could loan him a wing. Same thing with an LR40.

The only mounting issue is that a lot of people are replacing the wing bolts with 1/4-20 nylon bolts. So the wing bolt holes may be drilled out. But with washers, even a drilled out wing could be used on a "Stock" plane.

You can take the concept even further. Some people are dumpster diving and saving parts. A whole wing might be put together from two damaged wings. If it is an LA Racer 40 wing, why not let somebody use it on their Sky Raider Mach II? Or if someone with an LA Racer 40 needs a wing, why not let them use the Sky Raider Mach II wing? I personally don't think the internal servo of the SRM2 would give an advantage when used on an LR40 fuselage.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO - http://www.rcpro.org - http://www.rcpylon.com

(in reply to Oldbob)

Post #: 30

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/2/2007 12:37:28 AM

StanDouglas

Posts: 112
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

Alrighty then,

We had an emergency meeting today of the Club 40 board of directors and the AMA representatives. It is now official Club 40 is now an AMA official event # AMA 426.3; Club 40 will follow the following rules:

Airframes:
1) SRM2 or an LR40 only, but any parts may be interchanged as the contestants see fit.
2) No modifications of any sort may be done. This includes recovering or re-heating covering to remove wrinkles.
3) All original supplied parts must be used even if they don’t work.
4) Supplied spinners must be used and must be red,
5) Only white glue may be used to join wing halves and no other reinforcement is allowed.
6) Absolutely no epoxy on any part of the aircraft.
7) Foam safe CA is not allowed on any part. Only Amberoid glue can be used in areas where the Chinese worker made a mistake.
8) The original covering must be not removed. In the case of a repair silk span and clear dope is the only acceptable repair material.
9) Fiber glass not allowed
Engines:
1) Only Engines purchased on EBay are allowed.
2) APC 10x8 propellers are the only approved prop.
3) Balancing is allowed by grinding at the hub with a Dremel tool only; no LiPo Dremel tools are allowed
4) Fuel tanks must be the supplied tank and pass a 40 PSI pressure test at registration.
5) No pressure line from the muffler is allowed.
6) Fueling must be done with a Dave Brown hand crank pump.
5) No starters allowed, all contestants must hand start their engines.

Radios:
1) Only 4 channel radios are allowed and no rate switches.
2) Servos must be bushing type.
3) All radios must be on channel 32.
4) No LiPos allowed.
5) No field recharging of batteries allowed.

Reclaim rule:
1) Any engine may be reclaimed by punching out anyone you can for $10. But if you lose the fist fight its $50.
2) Any airframe may be claimed, including the engine, for $50. Exception, if the airplane is claimed by a spectator it’s $60.

That’s it all the new rules in a nut shell.

Excuse me! What is today’s date?

Well it's 4/1/2007 here.

SD
Also new today free broad band:
http://www.google.com/tisp/index.html

< Message edited by StanDouglas -- 4/2/2007 12:57:03 AM >

(in reply to DonStegall)

Post #: 31

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/2/2007 3:04:04 AM

garys

Posts: 744
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

Stan, I like most of your rules, but I suggest a few changes.....

1. The Dave Brown Six Shooter fuel pumps are too high tech...I suggest fuel bulbs only.

2. If a SRM2 wing is to be used on an LR40, or visa versa, it must be mounted upside down, providing anhedral, therefore negating any possible advantage of the wing swap.

3. If a contestant wins a heat, he must fly the next heat with his prop on backwards to give his competitors a better chance in the next round. The winner of the contest must fly the entire next contest with a backwards prop. God forbid you have a repeat winner, as we must remember this is a politically correct world where all competitors get a prize, regardless of skill level, practice, and preparation.

_____________________________

GS

(in reply to StanDouglas)

Post #: 32

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/2/2007 4:03:38 AM

Ken Erickson

Posts: 305
Joined: 12/17/2005
From: Columbus, IN, USA
Status: offline

Not actually a relpy to Gary.

Why does this thread remind me of the AMA forum????

Ken

edited to change "forum" to "thread".

< Message edited by Ken Erickson -- 4/2/2007 4:05:53 AM >

(in reply to garys)

Post #: 33

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/2/2007 2:28:40 PM

diggs_74

Posts: 1268
Joined: 1/20/2004
From: Emerald, WI, USA
Status: online

Isn't it funny that no matter what class of racing is being discussed, it always turns into this..

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Lee LaValley
NMPRA# 33w

(in reply to Ken Erickson)

Post #: 34

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/2/2007 2:39:53 PM

DonStegall

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline

Lee, it's not just racing. The pattern guys get into it, the combat guys do the same. Even the scale guys have similar type discussions. Sport Scale has been a hot topic in the past.

Any form of competition has to have regulations, and they have to be debated to come to terms. It is actually healthy as long as people keep it in perspective.

Club 40 Racing is about FUN. Arguing isn't fun, but things will work out. MANY people are getting hooked on the Sky Raider Mach II and the simple pleasure of low key racing, even if it is just on a virtual course.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO - http://www.rcpro.org - http://www.rcpylon.com

(in reply to diggs_74)

Post #: 35

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/2/2007 8:03:41 PM

DonStegall

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline

Addressing the “cheeks” on the Sky Raider Mach II is required in my opinion.

The Florida group allows using material to tie them together to stop them from vibrating.

Not only do they sometimes flutter at speed in the Advanced/Gold class, but they vibrate harmonically on the ground.

Why is this an issue? At our field weekend before last, a new plane was being run up on the ground. The plane was vibrating. A helpful bystander pointed out that the cheeks were vibrating. Unfortunately he did this by pointing to the cheeks through the propeller arc. His wounds required many stitches and he missed at least a week of work.

Call it a modification if you want. I call it a safety issue and I will fight to allow reinforcing the sides of the engine compartment so that something like this does not happen again.

I personally will not refer to Club 40 Racing as a “Stock” class any longer. Modelers have a hard time tolerating deficiencies and I think that ruling out “common modeling practices” like sealing hinge lines is not in the spirit of keeping Club 40 a FUN racing class. From now on I will refer to it as a “Spec” class. This terminology works in R/C car racing and many other forms of racing.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO - http://www.rcpro.org - http://www.rcpylon.com

(in reply to DonStegall)

Post #: 36

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/3/2007 2:29:51 PM

dwbebens

Posts: 200
Joined: 4/25/2005
From: Dickson, TN, USA
Status: offline

Greetings;

I've copied and transferred my previous post on the "Club 40 Hangout" forum onto this forum.

"It looks like everyone posting here on this subject is basically in agreement. I think it could be said that most of us want to reduce the possibility of speed creep due to "inch-worming" the rules. The rules need to clearly specify, as an irrevocable principle, that there are to be NO speed enhancing modifications to either the airframe or engine. Again, the basic principle to be adhered to is that there be NO speed enhancing modifications to the airframe or engine. Any durability, or safety enhancing modifications which do not enhance speed should, of course, be allowed. Other allowed mods should include what are called "good building practices"; so long as they don't enhance speed. It is the job of the CD to see that both the letter of the rules and the intent of the rules are being followed. It is also the job of each contestant to see that his airplane follows the intent of the rules.

It's good that we're having this discussion so soon in the life of this event. It shows that everyone is well aware of what can happen and has happened in the past, and that they are wary of it happening to Club 40 racing. I am very encourage by this discussion.

Doug Bebensee"

P.S. I'd like to add that I feel very strongly about the fuel issue. I think it should be pegged at no more than 15% and be supplied by the hosting club. There would be a substantial performance increase and cost penalty to allow high-nitro fuels. For one of our Florida Club 40 races it only costs about $2/person per race for the hosting club to supply the fuel. Our entry fees are $2 (so far).

Also, a little creative outlet can be a good thing, if kept under control. I like what Stan Douglas said about this in his post #25 second paragraph.

Doug Bebensee

(in reply to DonStegall)

Post #: 37

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 4/3/2007 4:22:15 PM

DonStegall

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline

Here is a portion of a document I am working on. Let me know what you think. It is not intended as "Rules", but as a supporting guideline.

quote:

The airframes used in Club 40 Racing are to remain essentially stock. The goal is to maintain a level playing field and to have fun. Anyone who has flown R/C for any length of time knows that airplanes get hurt and need repairs. Many modelers learn what areas of a particular model need improvement to hold up to everyday use, or more demanding use in R/C pylon racing. “Common Modeling Practices” will be allowed in the assembly and maintenance of the aircraft. This is not the same as “Common Speed Enhancement Practices” which shall not be allowed. This guide will list the areas that are subject to interpretation and provide guidance for groups and contest directors running Club 40 Races.

The engine shall be mounted upright in the position as provided “out-of-the-box”. Raising or lowering the engine is not allowed. If the front of the aircraft is damaged and needs to be repaired, the builder should attempt to locate the engine in the original position. Shimming the engine mount to change the thrust line is acceptable. The firewalls vary in horizontal and vertical thrust and adjusting the thrust is a common modeling practice. The stock engine mount should be used unless one is not available. Replacement engine mounts should be of the reinforced nylon type. Aluminum engine mounts are not to be used unless a stock or nylon mount is not available. The engine may be moved fore or aft to aid in balancing the aircraft. Engines must be securely attached to the engine mount with four screws.

The supplied plastic spinner may be replaced with a spinner nut or a spinner of not more than 2.5 inches in diameter. Heavy hub spinners are allowed as are spinner weights that fit inside a spinner. It is the modeler’s responsibility to ensure that the spinner assembly is safe. Cracked spinners shall not be used and the spinner must fit the propeller properly.

The sides of the Sky Raider Mach II at the engine compartment sometimes vibrate harmonically or flutter in flight. Two methods of addressing the issue may be used. A piece of wood or tubing may be used to connect the two sides. Doublers of plywood may be used on the inside of the compartment sides. A combination of the methods may be used. No attempt to enclose or streamline the engine is allowed. No rounding of edges or reshaping of the compartment sides is allowed. Repaired noses should be as close as possible to the original shape. Removal of the compartment sides is not allowed. Openings for clearance of mufflers and needle valves are allowed as needed. Any modification deemed to be an attempt to provide for speed enhancement shall not be allowed.

The tank may be replaced with a tank of at least 6 ounces of capacity. Tanks must be positioned in the provided area and may not be moved back to the CG position. Any brand of tank may be used as long as it meets the capacity requirement. The tank may only be pressurized with muffler pressure. A local option is to allow bubbleless tanks that have an internal bladder may be used as long as the bladder does not provide for additional pressure other than muffler pressure. The stock tank may have a bladder added to it as long as it meets the previous requirement of not providing additional pressure.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO - http://www.rcpro.org - http://www.rcpylon.com

(in reply to dwbebens)

Post #: 38

RE: Club 40 - Rules /