RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Pylon Universe - RC Pylon Racing >> Club 40 >> RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/8/2007 3:04:18 PM   
Ken Erickson



Posts: 307
Joined: 12/17/2005
From: Columbus, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Opa,

You are set up fine for aerobatics. Take Doug's movements for the racing.

I have not been using nose weight on my LA, but start every heat with a full tank. A bit of weight would not hurt. If you don't want to go the full 2 oz, there are 1/2 oz brass nuts by Higley available.

With the LA, there is no worry about the muffler bolt.

Ken Erickson

(in reply to antique opa)
       Post #: 101

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 2:56:54 PM   
stanlattrell


 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/20/2005
From: Leander, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I am an experienced RC pilot, but new to competetive events and club 40 racing has captured my interest. I have read every post on both the club 40 forum and the club 40 - rules forum, and am very familiar with the rules as they have been discussed in these forums. I was at my first ever organized RC event this weekend, and a situation developed that I feel needs attention. There appears to be some confusion
about the "extra lap for a pylon cut" rule. There was a case in the finals where a pilot cut a pylon early in the race, but flew an excellent race and completely lapped his next best challenger, crossing the finish line with 11 laps ahead of the challenger who had completed only 10 laps. The judges declared this pilot placed 2nd, because he "had to fly 12 laps to make up for the cut pylon. Because of this, this pilot was not able to advance in the finals, even though he clearly had better skills and a faster airplane. Would someone out there help this "new guy" understand what was going on, and how this rule is to be applied to racing events?? I would like to know for sure what is expected of me if I cut a pylon in a race -- I'm sure that will happen if I keep going to races.

(in reply to Ken Erickson)
       Post #: 102

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 3:42:40 PM   
gunfighter


 

Posts: 630
Joined: 7/13/2002
From: Canyon Lake, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Stan,
First let me say that we are still having a few "growing pains", and there were several mistakes made at the event Saturday.
As the CD, I take the blame.
We had pilots for lap counters all day and I was amazed at the number of "discrepancies" we had. This was caused, I feel, by the lap counters trying to watch the race while they are counting. They loose track of which plane they are supposed to be counting and miss a lap or count a lap twice. If some one has a suggestion to aleviate this I would love to hear it!
Re: the 11 lap rule - If you cut a pylon the lap you are on does not count. You must run another lap to make that up. Where the problem arose was disagreement whether the pilot that cut was ahead of or behind the 2nd place plane.
If the plane that cut was ahead, and on the same lap, then he would only have to lap the second place plane 1 time to be in the lead.
If, however, the plane that cut was behind another plane, then he would have to pass the other plane twice to take the lead. It was my understanding from the lap counters, that the plane that cut was behind when he cut.
After a rather in depth investigation, it appears there were 2 errors by 2 different lap counters during that race. 1 lap counter only counted to 9 while the other rightfully counted to 11. This was not discovered until after the next main was run so there was really nothing I could do about it. If this race had been for money or big prises, I would have declared the race void and run it again. By the time I realized what had happened, one of the planes involved in the heat was destroyed in a crash so a re-run was impossible.
We also had a problem with a cut judge. This person had worked as a cut judge before with no problems that I was aware of. this race, he decided to call a cut if the plane did not go completely around the poles. Our rule is you just have to fly past the pole. This caused a couple of people to "cut out" and DQ.
When this was discovered, the judge was replaced and more specific instructions were given to the cut judges. I then had a pilot that wanted me to go back and adjust his score card to show a first place instead of a DQ in one race. I could not do that because when the second cut was called, the lap counter stopped his watch and quit watching the plane, so no one knew where he would have finished or what his time was.
It seems the larger this gets, the more problems we discover. The race group and all the clubs involved are working very hard to get this right, but it will take work and understanding by all to make it go.
Please keep the comments coming. I do not mind CONSTRUCTIVE critisism. That is the only way we learn what you liked and what you did not like.
Next race is June 9th at the Prop Busters field in Somerset.
See you there. And by the way - you guys are in trouble because I am actually going to race at the next one!!!

(in reply to stanlattrell)
       Post #: 103

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 4:24:31 PM   
daven



Posts: 6911
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Years ago, locally, we changed our rule on 11 laps to make things easier to keep track of with limited help.

If someone cuts, they still only fly 10 laps, but go to the end of the finish order.

For example.

Say the plane that finished 1st, has 1 cut, and no one else cuts. The person who finished 2nd, would get 1st, The person who finished 3rd would get 2nd, and the person who finished 4th would get 3rd. And the person who finished 1st with one cut, would get 4th place (1 point).

Say the planes that finished 1st and 2nd each had one cut. The plane that finished clean in 3rd, would get first, the plane that finished 4th clean, would get 2nd. The plane that finished 1st with one cut would get third, and the plane that finished 2nd with one cut would get 3rd.

Not sure if this is confusing it or not, but alleviates the lap counting errors that happen far to often when cuts come in. I did some lap counting on Saturday, and caught myself forgetting to hold the lap card for a lap after a cut. Its easy to do after a long day in the sun.

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to gunfighter)
       Post #: 104

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 4:27:32 PM   
StanDouglas


 

Posts: 112
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		In any race venue there are going to be growing pains as we train people in running and judging races. I was a little surprised by the lack of attention some of our pilots gave to the lap counting job. In the first heat I flew a clean race and was given a time of 2 minutes. I was counting my own laps and flew 13 before I was told I was finished so I know I was timed for 11 or 12 laps. That's just the breaks.

I am working on my lap timer program that I wrote for running races at Speedworld Az. It's available on the NMPRA website. The additions I am adding to the system is a box that will sit in front of each lap official, total of 4 boxes. He will push a lap count push button switch at the completion of each lap and a 7 segment LED display will indicate the lap number just finished. In addition there will be a separate board with a push button for each lane to track cuts. It will require a 5th guy at the lap counter table to push the appropriate lane button when a cut is radioed in. This board will have 2 LEDs associated with each lane so that when one LED is on the pilot needs 11 laps and when both LEDs are lit for a lane the pilot has cut out.

All of this information is stored in a file on a laptop and may be examined and or recalled at any time during the race. All lap times are recorded along with any cut times so that one can determine where on the course a cut occurred and what the individual lap times where. By looking at the lap times it can be determined if a lap was missed and/or the lap timer counted a lap twice.

Since each lap is recorded the final time is easy to see and there's no mis-reading of the stop watch. The program will even calculate the finish places.

We will be using this system in the July race at ARCA along with Paul Herman's matrix program.

At some point I will be looking at adding wireless input from the cut judges and a lap/cut board for the pilots to see as the race progresses.

Hank Kauffmann and Len Gilmore are both working on improved wireless systems and I'm planning on gaining from their expertise both in hardware and software improvements.

Stan Douglas

(in reply to gunfighter)
       Post #: 105

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 4:32:16 PM   
stanlattrell


 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/20/2005
From: Leander, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Gunfighter -- thanks for the immediate response and clear description of the conditions of the cut pylon rule. In the instance I referred to in my first post, I was sitting in the No. 1 pylon cut judge position and got a first-hand and clear view of the occurrences. It is true that the flyer with the cut was behind the "next best competitor" at the time of the cut (1st pylon of the race). The cut flyer then proceeded to pass the "next flyer" during the remainder of the 1st lap, and then proceeded to gain ground and passed the same flyer again prior to the end of the race. This would seem to me to satisfy the 11 lap requirement, and to have finished in 1st place -- do I interpret your description correctly?? A suggestion -- which seems obvious to me, but I may not have the best view -- would be to have the timers/lap counters for single cut flyers count to 11 laps and stop the stopwatch at the finish line --Then check the time against the times of the other 3 flyers who have completed the race with 10 laps flown. If the single cut flyer has a finish time for 11 laps that is LOWER than the finish time of the 10 lap flyers --HE HAS WON THE RACE. Also, the times comparison would ACCURATELY place this flyer in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th positions, if they did not win. Would this work correctly as a PROCESS to eliminate the "interpretation" that is currently in use??
I believe the best way to remove discrepancies is: (1) to have clearly WRITTEN rules to use as a basis for this event that can be circulated to the participants on request and can be posted at each racing event for anyone to review, and (2) to have clearly defined and Written PROCESSES that all officials can follow and refer to if questions arise - also written and available for review at the event.
I would be willing to volunteer my time to help with this effort -- I also think this approach would help put this event "on the map" with other areas of the country and also with the AMA. Let me know what you think........

(in reply to gunfighter)
       Post #: 106

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 4:52:51 PM   
gunfighter


 

Posts: 630
Joined: 7/13/2002
From: Canyon Lake, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Stan L - We are on the same page. In the race you described the lap counters apparently did not see it the same way you did. Unfortunately, 2 people can look at the same thing and see something different.
The process you describe is what we are currently using. The problem seems to be getting the lap counters to watch one plane instead of trying to watch the race AND count laps for 1 plane. We also had some problems with the stop watches. The buttons were a little "heavy" and several times the watch was not started / stopped at the correct time.
I am anxious to see Stan D's timing program in operation. I think it has great possibilities.
We really need to keep in mind that this is racing for FUN. We do not have big prizes or money for the winners. I realize we have some VERY competative pilots racing with us, but we really need to keep it as relaxed as possible.
the last official race I ran in, I was the first off the line, was never passed (though it was close) and crossed the line first. I was given second place because one of the lap counters was using the wrong start / finish line and called the second plane done when he rounded the number 2 pylon on the last lap!
I feel your pain, and we are doing our best to remedy the situation.

(in reply to stanlattrell)
       Post #: 107

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 5:20:54 PM   
StanDouglas


 

Posts: 112
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Fortunately at the end of the day the big money went to right person. I know I got my fair share.

Remember the famous paradyme of Wings Whiplash, "There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

Stan D.

(in reply to gunfighter)
       Post #: 108

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/21/2007 11:30:35 PM   
Ken Erickson



Posts: 307
Joined: 12/17/2005
From: Columbus, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Over on the NMPRA website, in the discussion forums, there is a thread about The Difficulties of Conducting a Race. (Worded something like that.) After 9 races, we have found that the two biggest difficulties are:

1. Finding enough experienced people to be officials.

2. Finding enough people, experienced or not, to officiate.

It has been learned that even "Advanced" pilots are not yet fully experienced lap counters. As the "Advanced" pilots are our best bet, they will be given another opportunity to become more experienced at the race on June 9th. These opportunities will probably continue, as the year progresses.

That, in a nutshell means that by focusing on "Difficulty #2" until we get enough experience to focus on "Difficulty #1", we may eventually find the next most vexing difficulty.

Those of us working on the committee want to make this a fun, hassle-free event for the participants and the officials. We are still trying to figure out how to do that. We welcome suggestions.

Unfortunately (or maybe experience accumulated) we have found a number of things that have not worked. It might take longer to list them than to list the things that have.

Willingly accepting suggestions at: kenerickson@satx.rr.com . Those received will be shared with the committee.

Thanks,

Ken Erickson






[code][/code]

(in reply to stanlattrell)
       Post #: 109

RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion - 5/22/2007 1:26:38 PM   
dwbebens


 

Posts: 207
Joined: 4/25/2005
From: Dickson, TN, USA
Status: offline 		In our North-Central Florida Club 40 racing series, I'm sure mistakes are made in the officiating. In general, the pilots don't seem too concerned. I'm sure everyone does the best they can.

The CD can make a huge difference in how the race is run because he sets the tone of the race. He is responsible for a clear and accurate pilot and worker briefings. He is responsible for pacing the race heats. He is responsible for resolving problems as they come up.

Let's remember what this racing class is all about. It is about enticing new people into pylon racing. It is about comraderie. It is about low-pressure racing. It is about having FUN. Let's try not to make a big fuss during a race when we think we've been wronged by the race officials - - others are watching what we do. If we act contentions, if we are argumentative, if we are grumpy and mean spirited, then it reflects badly on us and pylon racing. Many of the people we are trying to attract and keep are watching our behavior. They will base their decisions in part on the "friendlyness atmosphere" they see at these races.

As for myself, at times I may have been "wronged" by the officials. I couldn't prove it. More importantly, I wasn't even very inclined to argue or even question the decisions made by the officials. On the flip side, I KNOW that I've been given gifts by the officials at times. I have the attitude that it all evens out over time. Of course, it bothers me when I "think" I've be penalized in some way, but I keep a friendly attitude and go-with-the-flow knowing that it is more important that I don't spoil things by exhibiting a bad attitude.

We certainly need to develope and clarify race procedures. We certainly need to clearly brief the pilots and workers. We certainly need to keep control during a race and correct problems as they arise. What we certainly DON'T need during a race is a lot of squawbling, arguing, and otherwise poor behvior.

It's great that these things are being discussed on this forum. The more we all know about the race procedures, the better the future races wil run. I agree completely with Ken Erickson when he says that the major officiating problems are 1) getting enough experienced officials and 2) even getting enough officials. I think it goes-with-the-territory so to speak. This kind of casual racing comes with the price tag of casual officiating. We can continue to work on improving this. For myself, I'm willing to be patient and especially not to make a fuss at the races.


Doug Bebensee


(in reply to Ken Erickson)
       Post #: 110

Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Pylon Universe - RC Pylon Racing >> Club 40 >> RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]





Jump to: