RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo

RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo
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[Poll]

Supercharger OR Twin Turbo

Supercharger

34% (13)

Twin Turbo

65% (25)

Total Votes : 38

(last vote on : 6/26/2008 1:16:40 PM)
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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 3:34:43 AM

subarubrat

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Couldn't quite cram them all in one frame, but I am sure car nuts will recognize the wing and intake. Now, so I don't totally hijack this thread let me get my two cents in on this root issue. I would go with a single super charger. Reason being allot of issues get real simple for an engine like that. One belt replaces two sets of hoses, custom exhaust piping, and dual air metering to say just a few things. Let's face it, a well built engine with a single SC will make the power your after so why get complicated and more expensive just for the sake of doing so? That is fine if that is part of the goal, having a piece of art engine and that is as good a reason as any. But for straight performance that single SC has allot of merits. One pull in the other direction, a turbo engine runs in a vaccume as a lightly loaded low compression engine at cruise and mild acceleration. That means the engine is only under boost and more stress when you are accelerating. There are merits to a streetable turbo setup as well. The choice isn't absolute, but given all the options, I would go SC.

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here is a link.... http://www.subarubrat.com/Lotus.htm

< Message edited by subarubrat -- 4/10/2007 3:41:25 AM >

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 5:19:10 AM

rideicon

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and lambo?? wheres the lambo???
the turbo spools while cruzing and will close the blow off valve and waste gate as soon as you smash on the gas and have all the boost right there, but have less strain on the engine. Turbos are not as expensive as superchargers in most cases. when you start doing custom intercoolers and fuel mapping they cost more, but make much more power.

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 3:33:11 PM

Tripower455

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quote:

There is as much of a leap in handeling between the Mustang and the STi in real world as there is between a sport bike and a harley dresser. Most of it comes down to power you can deliver controllably and under conditions impossible in a RWD car. The STi has all wheel drive first off, with limited slip front and rear as well as a DCCD center differential that gives computer managed power division between front and rear. Accelerate through a charp corner and drop the hammer on a RWD car and your going to loose it, in an STi, or EVO or other similar car you will be able to control that delivery and pull much harder. Off camber turns, lane transitions, skid recovery, etc. instead of fighting the power delivery it is integral to the car.

I'll give you all of that. especially in wet or snow.........

But again, in the real world of driving around on real streets, all of that doesn't make that much difference......

I will say that the WRX STI is one of the few imports that has impressed me...... If they'd take the baloney slicer off the back I'd like it even better! How does the AWD hook on the track? I imagine it just scoots!

Oh, and that Lotus is pretty cool too........

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Post #: 28

RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 4:32:41 PM

Tripower455

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quote:

Tripower you keep saying why start with a smaller engine if you want to make more power in regards to drag racing. horse power is not everything, although it is a major factor .

The guy who started this thread was asking about making 1200 hp to move a pickup truck. IMHO, that is a pretty steep goal for a lot of reasons, especially if he wants to drive the thing more than fix it. Regardless of how he makes the power, IMHO, he should start with the largest displacement engine he can. Why handicap yourself?

As for the 10 second car.......

With the old heads/intake (stock tripower setup, mildly ported cast iron heads), my '66 was running in the low 12's at low teens in the 1/4, 7.80's/low 90s in the 1/8.

I usually run the 1/8th as the closest 1/4 mile track is 100 miles away, and I also have a convertible. There are no bar requirements at my ETs in the 1/8 but there are in the 1/4, so it works out.

I have only run the 1/4 mile twice in that car, and the better of the 2 was 12.28 at 114 on drag radials. I would've run it more but I got booted after the second run for no bar. I thought I'd get kicked off after the first, so I wasn't too upset.

I could probably knock a tenth or 2 off my 1/8 mile times with larger rear tires, as with the 4:10s and 26" tires, I have to use 4th gear to make it down the track as I hit the rev limiter in 3rd about 200 feet before the traps. With 28" tires, I could just run it in 3rd and not have to shift again. Slicks would also help, and I am gonna borrow a set next time I go, if for no other reason than to be able to use the slicks only lane during test and tune. The DOT lane gets slick as ice after the morons run through the water box on DOT tires.

My friend is running 11.70s all day, with a '68 GTO with a 406. It is has docile street manners and looks completely stock. I could not tune my 462 to get those numbers for all I was worth, so I upgraded to more flow....I was running the same Crane HR cam at lower CR, less flow but a lot more displacement. His 45 years of Pontiac race tuning experience might also be a significant factor......

I replaced the heads, intake and put larger carb bowls on it. I have not gotten to the track with it yet, but the car feels a lot quicker. I need to recurve my distributor for the new heads, as the new ones use "fast burn" chambers, and require a lot less total timing than the old iron heads. I was running 36 degrees total (20 mech, no vac) with the old heads at 9.5:1 cr. The new heads like 30 total at 10.5:1! I also took about 100 lbs off the nose by replacing the iron intake and heads with aluminum pieces. The aluminum tripower intake is pretty cool. Looks totally stock, yet weighs 14 lbs, and I had it ported, so it flows 30% better than stock as well. (I guess I am not stuck in 1970, as hydraulic rollers and fast burn chambers, durable 5 speeds etc weren't even around then).....

It should run in the mid 11's, but my point of all this is that is HASN'T.......... (just like yours hasn't run in the 10s)

There are lots of guys running very similar setups to mine that are running in the deep 11's, and even into the 10's. That doesn't mean that mine will.....

Maybe I should put twin turbos on it!

Actually, there are some guys doing that with the large displacement OMF engines.....

< Message edited by Tripower455 -- 4/10/2007 4:54:05 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 4:52:11 PM

Tripower455

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From: Naples, FL, USA
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quote:

also yeah Tripower the older fords are the same, but who would go out and buy one of those nowadays? i was sure he wanst talking about one of those, if you are ive got a 94 3/4 ton here with a 460 big block, gets ****ty gas mileage but runs great, $1,000.. come get it!!!

Cool!

Now that would be a better place to start for a 1200 hp truck engine!

Actually, if you were closer, I'd seriously consider that truck. If Fords weren't such a PITA to swap between engine families, I'd put a 460 in mine, but I don't want to have to source a ZF with a BB belhousing pattern for a 4WD. Also, my kids are getting close to driving age, and while it isn't great, the 351 does get better mileage than a 460, especially around town. Both of my kids are gonna learn to drive on this thing, and it will be their vehicle to use until they have some experience under their belts. Everyone should know how to drive a manual, and I like the idea of 5300 lbs of steel around them......

Personally, I like the way the older Fords look better than the newer ones, but that's subjective and I am an OMF after all. In fact, the only reason I'd buy a newer one would be if I were gonna get a diesel.

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 11:41:28 PM

subarubrat

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Another angle to look at this is do you want a 1,200Hp car, or do you want the performance of a 1,200HP car? Here is what I am getting at; Power to weight is the great equalizer. That Lotus outruns an Enzo Ferrari on the track. A bone stock one will outdo a bone stock Vette of the same year, all on a fraction of the power. If you want the same performance with allot less money and allot more reliability look into a few ideas. Take a Porsche 914 or VW Ghia. There are top notch suspension and chassis upgrades to turn them into serious track cars that are rough riding but absolute monsters on the street. Drop in a Subaru STi motor which can put down just over 400Hp with minor work and no internal upgrades and give you daily driver reliability. Drop that in and spend the money on a proper trans and you will have a streetable car with what your looking for, unless it is simply the claim to 1,200Hp which again, I get.

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/10/2007 11:42:29 PM

rideicon

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From: anderson, CA, USA
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I don't think i'd ever buy a full sized gasoline power truck... and if i acquire one somehow i'd just sell it.
hondoctors 4 door integra has almost 550hp and runs a 11.0, with a stock trans.
mine will go a 10.9 with interior, at worst its going to run a high 11, if i don't get the quaffe lsd done before i put it back together after paint. I'm really not to worried about this car though i've got 3 street bikes and I'm actually trying to sell the car to fund my f-650 twin turbo cummins build. Just wanna make a fun dune/ daily driver 6 door cab truck that will be legal on the streets. the integra gets me too many tickets and for that reason, along with the street bikes.... i dont get my license back untill early next year....
hondoctors 4 door integra 11.09 its got like 545hp or something like that, a more mild b series build but it runs strong.
that ford here with the 460 is pretty beat up, it was used as a ranch truck so the registration is out of date a few years, but its only got something like 80k miles or something

oh sub brat, those sti swaps in bugs and ghias are badass, were doing an old porche with a sti swap. most of those things do wheelies, lol
also the lotus is badass but the engine is a little weird to work on and the resale isnt' great on them, id totally take an ariel atom over one, weighs much less, at only 1042lbs or something and they have a k20a2 engine with a jackson racing supercharger at 300hp, and if you have read my other posts here you know that the k series engines are capable of holding tremendous hp with stock enternals, keep that head, do the tsx k24 bottom end, add a turbo like a gt40 along with that supercharger it already has and push 700hp through that thing!!!!! that was what i was going to build before i built my big f250, and i've been debating building an atom, M3, or a bunch of other cars but i've landed on the f650, that thing would rock! and i could live in it between apartments, lol

oh and Tripower455 if you wanna go faster maybe you should acid wash some of the weight off your car. lol. Tiny amounts of weight make big differences on the track.

< Message edited by rideicon -- 4/11/2007 12:06:19 AM >

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/11/2007 1:21:09 AM

Tripower455

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From: Naples, FL, USA
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quote:

oh and Tripower455 if you wanna go faster maybe you should acid wash some of the weight off your car. lol. Tiny amounts of weight make big differences on the track.

I just took 100 pounds off the front AND added a minimum of 50hp........ Should put me right where I want it.

The weight savings alone is worth about a tenth.....

For the rest, I am not willing to do the stripper thing to it. It has AC, full upholstery, sound deadening, show paint etc in it. It runs a full 2 seconds quicker than the run of the mill stock musclecar, and still looks pretty stock. With the hood down, the only giveaway is the dash, but if you didn't know what it was supposed to look like, you'd think it was stock. I can drive it anywhere on pump gas with the air on and tunes cranking.... If it runs 11's, I'll be happy, and it should.... I was only a few tenths away with the old setup.

I can take it to a car show and win trophys (and have), and then drive it to the track and run well...... As with everything, it's all in what you're willing to compromise........

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/11/2007 1:29:21 AM

subarubrat

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You don't have to sell me on the Atom. That will give you the performance of an Indy car. As for the Lotus engine, I find it easiest to just pull the rear clamn sheel and it's all there for you in the open. And as for resale, I bought mine 1 year old and saved a ton of cash that all went into upgrades. Allot of folks buy them based on the performance and soon find out what it means to drive a race car on the road and then sell it.

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/11/2007 3:12:54 AM

rideicon

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yeah that compromise sucks! i was never willing to strip out my 4 door, yeah 100lbs should be a tenth or more, on a heavy car but 100lbs can be up to a half second on a car that weighs half as much to start with

see what i mean.
have you seen the lotus's with the k series engine swaps? slightly more hp, way better reliability, and the availability of upgrades shoots through the roof, honda engines love boost

and yeah wait a year or 2 or 3 and save tons of money! but don't buy one new

< Message edited by rideicon -- 4/11/2007 3:14:19 AM >

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/11/2007 5:50:17 PM

Tripower455

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From: Naples, FL, USA
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quote:

yeah that compromise sucks! i was never willing to strip out my 4 door, yeah 100lbs should be a tenth or more, on a heavy car but 100lbs can be up to a half second on a car that weighs half as much to start with see what i mean.

I don't think it sucks at all in my case. I've got a great looking, great running, fun to drive classic car that is appreciating in value every day. If I wanted a race car, that's what I'd have built (and still may.... my friend has a '64 Tempest post that weighs about 500 lbs less than my vert before weight shedding........). A convertible is not the car for all out track use for a variety of reasons, not the least of which that they won't let you run quicker than 13.99 on an NHRA track without a bar, and I am not putting one in a $60k+ car. They changed the rules a little, but they are still a little ambiguous and my car doesn't fall into the "stock" category, depending on the tech guy.

It's funny how guys think 11's aren't quick any more...... even the guys who CAN'T get their cars into the 13's! There's a guy at my track with a CRX that he has been working on for years. Looks like crap, sounds like crap, has no interior or hood but is running some type of turbo setup (the BOV is always popping as he revs it up in staging). I beat him EVERY time, often with little to no traction out of the hole (I have to feather it out in 1st, then hammer it in second, making for lousy 60 foots) as do all of my buddies with similar cars, yet, he comes up with excuse after excuse as to why his car won't break 10's (in the 1/8th) and how my 7's are slow....... I never say a word. I do laugh as he shifts at 12k or something and the car is going 15 mph.......

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RE: Supercharger OR Twin Turbo - 4/11/2007 6:27:14 PM

rideicon

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thats horrible, the has to be something wrong with that car, as i said before me and my buddy matt got a stripped out crx, it wasn't even as stripped out as weve done to some other of our cars, into the 12's in the 1/4 with stock tires and a bolt on turbo on the stock single cam engine, those single cams only rev to about 7200 on a good day....but we were estimating somewhere around maybe 165whp which is great for that car.
what i meant was that feeling you get when someone beats you and thinks they are faster than you even though it wasn't by much and you know that could kick his ass if you stripped your car out but you aren't going to go that far to get that satisfaction but you wanna kick him in his damn mouth! lol. thats what i was saying when i said compromise sucks!

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