unitedmodelers  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> unitedmodelers
Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
unitedmodelers - 2/25/2003 8:11:40 PM   
Matt Kirsch



Posts: 7087
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Gordon,

Please don't be too offended, but I'm afraid your view doesn't address reality. Sure, you just want to fly, but it's not that simple, and you know it.

That club field you fly on didn't magically appear. A group got together at some time and decided they wanted a place to fly. They discovered that most landowners are understandably quite hesitant about allowing these noisy, child-maiming machines on their land. The AMA provided these guys with an easy and inexpensive means to prove that they were serious, and insured in case of the unthinkable. Dangling the AMA like a carrot in front of landowners finally convinced one of them to bite, and allow access to the club field you fly at.

You don't have a choice, as it was already made for you. However, you want to fly, so you now have a dilema. Can you live with yourself if you "compromise your principles," give up your "freedom of choice" and join the AMA for a few minutes of happiness? I can.

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 26

unitedmodelers - 2/25/2003 10:10:12 PM   
bpannier



Posts: 177
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Status: offline 		If you want to know what the policy covers they will send you a copy of the policy and you can read it yourself I believe it is Gulf Insurance.

_____________________________

73s Bud. AMA 739, WB7NDL

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 27

unitedmodelers - 2/26/2003 12:27:07 AM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by gbisapk
I said "and yes, I do just want insurance"

Gordon [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mkirsch
Gordon,


You don't have a choice, as it was already made for you. [/QUOTE]


mkirsch,

You are wrong, Gordon does have a choice! He can go out and purchase some property and start a club of his own! Then he can invite whoever he wants to come fly and assume the risk on his insurance!

I don't understand why people keep saying they don't have a choice!

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 28

unitedmodelers - 2/26/2003 6:02:14 AM   
Gordo-ProBro



Posts: 1984
Joined: 9/3/2002
From: Tulsa, OK,
Status: offline 		I love this PLACE!

First, to DAN T - Please, please, please, don't ever say that!!! I didn't mean to connect my views with our club's! You will get me drawn and quartered! LOL! Would you mind editing that reference out?

Will be at the MEM day fly, loved it last year.

Please come over this spring, the dates for the funfly are on the web site. Our NEW FIELD will be ready, I hope! Your landing gear will like it!


mkirsch: You I like! Reality is a real good thing. Dan called it a "necessary evil (or whatever)" and we can agree on that! We could have an agrument then go flying!

The only dispute I would have with your post is that there is more we can do. First, this is good stuff, make noise and get the attention of the leadership and membership, as the "squeaky wheel gets the oil" (why do you think special interests run our country?) Second, participate on the local level. Despite what others spout, If we could insure our club through other than the AMA, we wouldn't miss anything! (IMO!) Noone here uses anything else! We work the land, literally, build the stuff that we need, teach the students, etc. That's the REAL hobby! Last, learn and VOTE in the national elections (sounds like a PBA for the whole country, huh?)

MARK - DITTO, but then we tend to agree.

P-51B - oh.

Gordon

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 29

unitedmodelers - 2/26/2003 7:52:07 AM   
changed


 

Posts: 153
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: dfgd, NB, BANGLADESH
Status: offline 		What do you guy's do, pick a thread and argue until you get tired of typing. I see the same names over and over again, why dont you start a thread called "pissing contest". Just my 2 cents worth.

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 30

Got us! - 2/26/2003 9:15:02 AM   
Gordo-ProBro



Posts: 1984
Joined: 9/3/2002
From: Tulsa, OK,
Status: offline 		Hey, that was good. I'm still laughing and I'm one of the guys your talking about. I like being bitten once in a while!

Gordon

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 31

unitedmodelers - 2/26/2003 9:00:17 PM   
Matt Kirsch



Posts: 7087
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Any way with all that said my beef is that the AMA has become a "self aware entity" and therefore practices "self preservation tactics" and excluding other viable insurance is one of those tactics. Since the AMA does indeed provide coverage at a separate charge for the club and land owner they could open their doors to other insurers for club members that meet their minimums but instead they practice exclusionary tactics instead.[/QUOTE]

That's the thing. It's not exclusionary. There's nothing stopping non-AMA members from working out an agreement with the landowner under which they would provide their own insurance.

It would be really nice if they also worked out an agreement with the club that does all the work to maintain the site. I mean, would you like it if you spent tons of time and money to develop a facility on loaned/leased land for your personal use, only to have the landowner go over your head and tell other people that they can use the facility YOU worked so hard to develop?

"Preservation tactics." Give me a break...

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 32

unitedmodelers - 2/27/2003 12:38:11 AM   
mongo


 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: online 		if you spend dollars and time in developing "loaned property, ya get what ya deserve.
if you "signed" a lease that is soo loose as to allow the property owner to"go over yer head" you also get what ya deserve.
a proper lease will not allow the property owner to co lease or co use the property leased.

_____________________________

for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 33

unitedmodelers - 2/28/2003 2:20:45 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by littlecrankshaf

mkirsch since your post is directed to me,instead of any informative nature to this thread, I feel the need to respond so that you may elaborate further and therefore you may contribute in a positive way even if by accident.

I guess you missed the point or I need to type a little slower for you so try to keep up.

Ok let's say I show up at an AMA event AND I was not an AMA member but I had a insurance policy from Loyds of London and it matched or exceeded the AMA insurance in every regard. I'll bet I would still be excluded from participating in the event.

Now would that tell you the AMA is trying to open the door to all modelers or to just the modelers of the AMA?

IMO and my ONLY point is that the AMA should try to find more ways to include all like hobbyist in every way possible. Actually isn't that the "original"precept of the AMA? Has it somehow been forgotten?

I just don't believe the benefits that the AMA gives to other modelers should just be incidental.

...Therefore if UMA's insurance is up to the minimum standards of the AMA why shouldn't they be allowed to participate with us as long as all other requirements are met for any particular event?

Do you disagree? If so state your reasons why. [/QUOTE]

In this post you have turned the subject to sanctioned events. Keep that in mind. This response is to that issue alone.

As far as I know, there is no mention for any insurance in the sanctioning process.

What is required at an AMA sanctioned event is AMA membership.

Now, look at other groups that sanction competition. If you want to play on the PGA tour, must you be a member of the PGA? If you want to compete in NASCAR, must you be a member of NASCAR? The ABC (American Bowling Congress)? How many more can you name?

In the interest of promoting competition, the AMA has made it possible for the CD to process your AMA membership on the spot, so you will not be turned away.

If my memory serves me correctly, AMA membership was required at sanctioned events before the AMA ever provided insurance coverage as a benefit to it's membership.

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 34

unitedmodelers - 2/28/2003 2:51:46 AM   
Matt Kirsch



Posts: 7087
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		You'd win that bet. All you've got is a piece of paper that say's "Lloyds of London" on it. I as the hypothetical CD am not an insurance agent, and I have no idea what the legalese on that paper means. Furthermore, I don't have time to read through it and make sure it's valid and up to date. I can't take your word for it because I don't know you from Adam, and you could be lying, waving a worthless piece of paper you made up on your computer in front of my face. If you have an accident, it's my kiester on the line and I'm not willing to take that risk. There are 25 people in line behind you waiting to sign in, so produce an AMA card or move along please.

Tell me this; what would the point of "opening up the door to all modelers" be? The AMA is not a charity. The AMA not only wants you to fly, they want you to join. Anything less would be unbelievably idiotic.

Bottom line here is, the AMA provides a convenient and affordable means for sanctioning competition. Ask Frank Tiano (if he doesn't bite your head clean off for speaking in his presence) the hoops he had to jump through to insure his last jet meet. It certainly wasn't as simple as filling out a couple of short forms and sending in a $20 filing fee. The purpose of this hobby is to have as much fun as possible with as little adminstrivia as possible. The AMA does a great job of taking care of all that malarchy so we can get back to doing what we wanted to do in the first place.

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 35

unitedmodelers - 2/28/2003 3:13:39 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		littlecrankshaf

what you posted was "AMA event". The ONLY AMA events are sanctioned events. It may not have been what you meant, but, it was what you posted.

If you were allowed to fly in a sanctioned event, and were not a member of the AMA, it was simply a matter that the CD did not do his job.

JR

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 36

unitedmodelers - 2/28/2003 3:54:29 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by littlecrankshaf


Technically all flying within the AMA scope is an event unto them. [/QUOTE]

LOL. What in the heck is the "AMA scope"?

Now you are making it up as you go along. Show me something, anything, anywhere that says that.

Rhetoric does not pass for fact.

To carry this a little further, you try to cloud the seperation between the AMA and an AMA chartered club.

The AMA does not tell the AMA charted club how to conduct itself. That goes for everything from it's organization to it's policies about who may fly. The AMA neither tells the club that it must be democratic nor that only AMA members may fly at the club's field. Yes, there are requirements to become a chartered club, but they go to things like not allowing prejudice (in the traditional sense) and requiring all flying members of a charted club be AMA members. Whether a club choses to charter with the AMA is a decision made by the club.

If insurance is an issue, it is made an issue by the club. There are some very good reasons that most club's that have complete control of a field do not allow non-AMA members to fly there. They are based in good sense and self-preservation.

When you chose to say AMA and mean the national organization and the charted club interchangeably, that is flat wrong.

While we are at it, lets make the distinction about sanctioned events. CD's sanction an event through the AMA. The sanctioned event may or may not be affiliated with a club. The sanctioned event may or may not be flown at a club field. The CD is THE authority at any AMA sanctioned event.

JR

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 37

unitedmodelers - 2/28/2003 5:19:10 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by littlecrankshaf
scope ... range, space, room,field,influence,margin,Freedom,reach,grasp,confines,comprehension,gamut,realm,latitude,span,breadth... Oh heck get your own dictionary

Anyway...

J_R wrote



Having your cake and eating it to? [/QUOTE]

No

Just stating facts. You do know what facts are, don't you?

You might want to read the AMA 2003 club charter package on the AMA web site. It is full of facts that you might find informative. Who knows, you might find something about the "AMA scope".

JR

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 38

unitedmodelers - 2/28/2003 6:20:17 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by littlecrankshaf



Is it only me or is there some conflicting statements above?

The AMA neither tells the club that it must be democratic nor that only AMA members may fly at the club's field.

Vs

Yes, there are requirements to become a chartered club, but they go to...requiring all flying members of a charted club be AMA members. [/QUOTE]

If you will go read the charter package carefully, you will know. If not..... I dunno, stay uninformed and misinformed, I guess

(in reply to beavertail)
       Post #: 39