ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Ok, the overview list is pretty long, so let's address a section at a time. First on the list is "Programs". The whole list can be found here: http://www.modelaircraft.org/overview.asp
Let's try to keep our eye on the ball here and see what the whole list boils down to. It should be interesting. Who knows? Maybe I'll be the one to change my tune.

Depending on the course of this thread, I may continue through Service, Events and Products.



PROGRAMS

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Sanctioned events - more than 2,500 annually Errr... this isn't free. Not exactly a benefit, more like a revenue stream.
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Assistance in getting and keeping flying sites Rarely I've seen articles about this. Last time the Feds were more help?! Still, I'll give'm this one.
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National Safety Advisory Program and Safety Code Standards Huh?
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Annual Youth Scholarship Program Is this an appropriate use of funds? Certainly it's not a "bad" thing, but do you think it's appropriate here?
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Youth Education Programs, YES Grants I'm not even sure what they mean by this. I've seen clubs with youth programs, but never seen anything from the AMA directly.
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Club chartering Program providing club and site assistance to nearly 2,450 local clubs Whom we can force to pay $58 per year per person. Oh, this is the second claim for flying site assistance
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Dues structured by age groups ‑ younger and older modelers pay less Gee, thanks.
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Opportunities to serve in leadership roles of Contest Director and/or Leader Member Why would I? Only if it's necessary for a club function!
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World Championships Teams selection and financing, plus travel assistance Wow, I'm soooo not happy about this! And I won't be until I see it on ESPN or some other national network!
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Support and promotion for the sport of aeromodeling for schools, service groups, and clubs Last time we (the club) asked for promotional materials, we got some xeroxed papers. Woohoo.
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Air Show Team Program offering demonstrations of model aircraft to millions of people Millions? Who are these people and when did this happen!?
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Club Officer Recognition Been club sec for two years and I have no idea what this means.
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Mall Show Programs for clubs Wazzat? More xeroxes? Maybe they mean program like at a wedding or something. No clue here.
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Historic Preservation and Research programs (Museum, Archives, and Library) I'm in agreement with this. If I could get copies of archived plans, etc for cost this would be a real benefit.
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Introductory Pilot Program Good program. Especially since they worked to minimize paperwork.
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Attendance at major modeling trade shows for member assistance and to provide public awareness of aeromodeling Exactly which trade show are they attending that isn't aware of aeromodeling? And if they aren't even aware of model airplanes, how are they going to be members and receive assistance?
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Conduct of volunteer programs for members participating in the International Aeromodeling Center activities Huh?
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Leader club recognition What, in MA?
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Hobby shop displays as an AMA information center Been to many hobby shops and never seen one. Kind of stretching it to put it here as a program. This is micro-information. Next line should say something about taping xeroxes to windows around town.
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Hall of Fame recognition Hall of Fame could be cool. This should be a good source of articles.
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Experimental Aircraft Inspections for models over 55 lbs. Safety Nazis should be kept busy!
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Turbine Waivers for jet pilots See previous

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

One of my favorite movie quotes and movie. It actually a lot more funny to watch the entire scene. Truly a classic and very befitting of this thread. [link=http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html]LINK TO DIALOUGUE[/link]

But apart from better sanitation, medicine, education, irrigation, public health, roads, a freshwater system, baths, public order and the wine... what have the Romans ever done... for us?

Also why didn't you start with the AMA services or products first, most of the programs are just user specific and optional. Whereas most of the services and products effect most of the members and have a lot more teeth for the money. I see you don't partake in many of the "programs" which the AMA offers. I guess we'll start off with what doesn't effect you first to get the threads propaganda level raised to code red as quickly as possible, then well lift our spirits by reading the benefits which suit you a little better. Kinda like what they do you to you in the Corps, knock you down to zero then boost you back up. This thread is now on at boost level zero.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Just taking them in the order presented. I welcome a response to my points. If you just want to argue STL, do it somewhere else. I won't be sucked in this time. I seriously want to see if any of this is useful or outdated. Period.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Wait who was arguing? You're entire post was sarcastic PT, I was just playing along. I don't have anything else to say about this thread. I know which benefits I receive from the AMA and the ones that I don't.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Which is to say you don't have any counterpoints. Yes, some of my answers were sarcastic, but that happens to be how I feel about the "list". If anyone does have a real counterpoint or just an opinion, feel free to post it. This isn't an attack by me on folks that support the AMA, but rather hard look at ... (wait for it).... what you get for $58!

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

I gave you my counterpoints, they are in bold above. I bolded the funny parts just like you did. Here are the remainder of the counterpoints below, in no particular order of course. Sorry to boost the morality of the discussion so quickly. I give this thread only a few more posts till it get's zapped anyway, you did everything you could to come out swinging other then wear boxing gloves.

Let me help ya out there with that one.

PRODUCTS
-Model Aviation magazine ‑ The AMA Voice of Aeromodeling News
-Standardized AMA competition rules ‑ the FAI Sporting Code Competition Regulations
-Modeling publications available to members at discount prices through Supply & Service Department
-AMA Insider for clubs
-Delta Dart Kit for introduction to aeromodeling
-Hobby Shop Lists for promotional needs
-Club Labels for promotional needs
-Club Newsletter Labels for promotional needs
-Museum newsletter Cloud 9 for patrons
-Model Flier's Sporting license for sanctioned events
-Advertising about the Association Services in other modeling publications
-AMA Convention (formerly known as IMS Show)
-Sport Aviator (online magazine) – Dedicated to helping the new model pilot
-Grand Event – exposing individuals to all aspects of the hobby of modeling

SERVICE
-Liability Coverage for the Operation of Model Aircraft, Boats, Cars, and Rockets
-$2,500,000 Comprehensive General Liability Protection for model activities for members, clubs, site owners, and sponsors
-$25,000 Accident/Medical Coverage for members
-$10,000 Maximum Accidental Death Coverage for members
-$1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism Coverage for members
-Primary Site Owner Insurance ‑ up to $5,000,000 each location
-Published information ‑‑Financial reports, Contest Calendar, Construction Articles, Claim reports, and general news
-Information how to obtain Non Profit status to retain income as a Tax Exempt organization under IRS Section 501(c)(3)
-Accumulated assets ($11 million)
-Safeguarding radio frequencies through liaison with Federal Communications Commission
-Achievements recognized through the Awards Programs
-World Record performances processed through FAI
-Affiliate of National Aeronautical Association
-Contest scheduling coordination to avoid conflicts
-National Records recognized and recorded
-Liaison maintained with major Government agencies (Corp. of Engineers, Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines, and FCC)
-Film Library with rentals available to members, clubs, and general public
-National Museum ‑ Frank V. Ehling National Model Museum ‑ free admission to all members
-Museum Store for visitors
-Museum Patron Program
-Support and sponsorship of technical meetings
-United States representation to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), Lucerne, Switzerland
-More than 50 full-time staff members dedicated to serving all aspects of aeromodeling interests
-The National Center for Aeromodeling, the world's only full‑time model aviation facility
-Lee Renaud Memorial Library ‑ more than 25,000 publications and books with research service available
-Specialty member programs offered only through AMA membership ‑ Credit Cards and Eye Care Discounts
-Serving aeromodeling since 1936‑ more than 70 continuous years
-Convenience of using a Fax machine to send and receive information
-Affiliate of National Aeronautical Association
-Web page on Internet ‑ Information dissemination
-Internet E‑mail ‑ to improve ease of communications
-Federal land use with Department of Interior
-District meetings for in-person contact
-Free 800 number for member service Administrative staff to assist with explanation of various programs
-Coordination with Federal Aviation Administration to promote safe regulations for flying
-Online Club Charter Renewal Kit
-Online Membership Manual
-Purchase model plans
-AMA Product Guide – WebStore

PROGRAMS
-Sanctioned events - more than 2,500 annually
-Assistance in getting and keeping flying sites
-National Safety Advisory Program and Safety Code Standards
-Annual Youth Scholarship Program
-Youth Education Programs, YES Grants
-Club chartering Program providing club and site assistance to nearly 2,450 local clubs
-Dues structured by age groups ‑ younger and older modelers pay less
-Opportunities to serve in leadership roles of Contest Director and/or Leader Member
-World Championships Teams selection and financing, plus travel assistance
-Support and promotion for the sport of aeromodeling for schools, service groups, and clubs
-Air Show Team Program offering demonstrations of model aircraft to millions of people
-Club Officer Recognition
-Mall Show Programs for clubs
-Historic Preservation and Research programs (Museum, Archives, and Library)

Introductory Pilot Program
-Attendance at major modeling trade shows for member assistance and to provide public awareness of aeromodeling
-Conduct of volunteer programs for members participating in the International Aeromodeling Center activities
-Leader club recognition
-Hobby shop displays as an AMA information center
-Hall of Fame recognition
-Experimental Aircraft Inspections for models over 55 lbs.
-Turbine Waivers for jet pilots

EVENTS
-National Aeromodeling Championships, world's largest model airplane contest
-World Championships and other special activities hosted
-Development of new outdoor promotional modeling events

Roby

The 58 bucks allows me to fly at the club field every week
and to fly in a few local AMA events.

Works fine for me as I could care less about any of the other stuff.
What more could I want ? What more do I need ?


Roby

SSRCCPREZ

Ummm.... I don't even know that this thread dignifies a response. BUT having no dignity I shall respond.
I think you are doing nothing more than trying to encite another AMA $ucks thread. $58.00 a year is .16 cents a day. You wanna fly at a sanctioned field pay the 58, you don't then don't. If you have issues with the AMA, instead of posting on RCU, have you contacted your DVP with not just criticisms, but constructive,realistic ideas on improvement? Are you an associate DVP? Are you an AMA "Good Guy" or are you just a pissing endlessly about the $58.00. Better yet can you provide half the things the AMA does for $58.00 or less? If so then GREAT where do we all sign?
Starting trouble for the sake of starting trouble is fruitless. Ther eis no point to this thread other than to stir the pot. C'mon man we are all beter than this.

mscic-RCU

My Feedback: (6)

I get to fly at three club fields and some sanctioned events. Other than that, they don't do much for me.

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

I couldn't have said it any better.


50%

JUGFLIER

What do i get for 58 bucks? See link. www.colbertrcflyers.com . this field and club is not available without the insurance and owner liability protection provided for by AMA. End of subject.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Ok, so far my point is being born out. At this point, since nobody is arguing this based on the original post, I don't see much of a reason to extend it. STL, all you did is post the list I'm talking about. So what is your counterpoint? My point was and is that the AMA doesn't really DO much for the money. The mission is born out by the clubs with little or no support by the AMA. What they DO isn't communicated very well.

Consider this, the AMA collects over nine million dollars in dues every year. Don't you think you'd see some support of the people that actually pay that money in?

I was simply stating my feelings. I didn't say anything personal. Not even about you. (how tough was that!) So why do you think it will get "zapped"? Like I said, if you have a real counterpoint, please post it.

That's not true. Why did you post other than to stir the pot? I don't see you posting anything constructive here. You're just being judgemental.

As you've no doubt heard, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This thread and my words are what I have to offer. I understand that I will be criticized for it. Perhaps one day when I don't have small children, I will have time to work in a position within the AMA. Right now, I don't have the time nor inclination.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Do you want me to actually go through every one of your bullet points? Which one to start with, I don't know how about just about every one of them. I mean my god man you actually want someone to debate your 25 points? Most of us guys have to already put up with lists like this from our signifigant others after dinner and now we have to debate 25 points at a time here too?

Reading your initial post is like thinking about a person who wakes up in the morning, has a nice stretch and yawn, rubs their eyes, looks out the window and sees what a nice sunny day it is outside and then walks over to the dog and kicks it for no particular reason. But hey, that's just my feelings, nothing personal.

Tell ya what ... I'll debate your first post just for kicks.

Revenue stream? Do you know what they cost, practically nothing if you can put it into perspective. Sanctions are what $5-$25? Let's see that may cover the expense it takes the time for the person in Muncie to push the paperwork through the system and maybe they make a few bucks, so what.

Now what does that get the site owner, 2.5MM of additional coverage. What do you think it would cost him/her to add a rider onto their homeowners/site insurance policy for some kind of contest for the site? Bet more then $20. What the AMA provides is an additional group rate service for AMA members, at a low low price, yes that would be considered a benefit ONLY for AMA members. Let's not forget the contest tools the AMA provides as well.

And I'm pretty sure the event holders can figure out a way to get their $20 back somehow ... call it landing fees, hot dogs, soda pop, sweet tea (for you Jawja folk), raffles or other revenue streams for themselves and their clubs. Can't even imagine the profit margin is on sweet tea ... must be round a thousand percent or so. It works out for everyone, ya know team effort and stuff. A club could make $500 for itself in one sanctioned event without putting hardly any effort into it. What do you think Joe Nall pulls in for their $20. So now you have a sanctioned event and the site owner gets add'l coverage, everyone's happy, cept the AMA, they made a measley $20 and you made $500 or more. Don't forget to donate that raffle money too ... as if.

ira d

While I dont agree with some things the AMA does I think $58.00 per
year is rather affordable, I would like to see an option to make the
insurance primary, also find a way to insure clubs without everyone
haveing to be a AMA member to use them, and drop the waiver system.

I think the main thing the AMA needs is some leadership changes but
thats just my .02 .

Jim Thomerson

I too would like to see the team selections and world champs on ESPN. I like the Jumprope and Tunbler Stacking competitions, but a little more variety would be nice.

I'm glad the AMA gives what support it does to the teams, but the lack of publicity is unforgivable.

rcmiket

Hey STLPilot what ever happened to the flying field you and friends were putting together in Central Park? Let me refresh your memory you were going to show us all how to get a flying field. Well were losing ours and I was looking for pointers.

Mode One

I get what I want out of my $58.00 membership fees for the AMA. I can't convince you it's a good deal and you can't convince me it's not! So, where do YOU go from here? Join, don't join, start a new orginization, or don't, I couldn't care less, because I'm staying right here!

I'm not saying the AMA is perfect, nor am I saying it can't be improved! I am saying with the magazine and additional liability insurance coverage alone, I feel it's worth the cost. Obviously many of you don't; so, what else is new?!?

SSRCCPREZ

Frankly in direct answer to the post that started this thread I can sum the answer to the question up in one sentence.

I get out exactly what I put into it.....and sometimes more

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Ira, if I had about four or five thousand people that thought like you did, I could retire early. In style! Whether it's affordable or not isn't the argument. What do you get for your dues? Errr, so far it's just the insurance. But that's what, less than 1/5 of your dues? Think about it. How many digits are you willing to put in the Pres. paycheck? (I think 6 is one too many.)

Jim, I agree in a way. If those guys had to pay their own way, I'd bet they would find a way to get sponsors, which would require publicity for their product and you would see a different scenario. Subsidizing never works, capitalism works every time.

Mode One, as I said in the original post, I'm open to a good debate. Sway me. Change my mind. I gave every opening. Just because they run out of money doesn't mean it's being properly spent or that the AMA is being properly administered. All I'd like to see is one single persuasive, thoughtful argument for something on the list. So far everybody is agreeing that everything in my original post has merit. They need to take a long, hard look at why people should sign up and pay dues. One day the strong-arm tactics will fail when there is an option. Personally, I think the AMA has potential. But it's buried deep under people who just don't think their power could ever be challenged.

STL, "Jawja folk"? I think your prejudice is showing again. Other than that, you proved my point rather nicely. It's really pathetic that you like or dislike people based on geography.

Jim Thomerson

From what I understand, if you are on a world champs team, you can expect to spend considerably more on the trip than the AMA support. Plus, in the areas I am familiar with, you have probably already spent several thousand dollars getting your stuff together. practicing and going to the team trials. Of course there are fewer state-supported teams to fly against than there used to be.

In the distant past the AMA sent your hometown newspaper a press release if you even entered the Nationals. Recall the nice article about the Junior Free flight World Champs in Model Aviation? I wonder if the AMA sent press releases to the hometown newspapers of those yourn folks.

Mode One

(In reply to Ptulmer)

1). A fairly common cost for a monthly model airplane magazine subscription: $35.00.
2). $2,500,000.00 liability coverage. (What would the premium for such coverage be? Could it be obtained for $25.00? This would seem like a great deal to me! Yes, it is not primary, so then, how much does your homeowners or renters insurance cost you? Certainly more then $25.00)!
3). Pay the operating costs of the orginization and all other expenses the AMA has $3.00.

$35.00 + $25.00 + $3.00 = Oh oh! I've over spent! $63.00 and the AMA does it all for only $58.00, They are truly amazing!

Yes, the figures are imaginary. Maybe it's $30.00 for the mag. and $20.00 for the insurance and $8.00 for the AMA. Or, maybe it's $12.00 for the mag., $45.00 for the insurance and $1.00 for the AMA.

I don't think it's to much to pay, you do, like I said, what else is new?

Lomcevak Duck

My Feedback: (14)

What do I get? Nasea, heart burn, indigestion, upset stomach... sounding like a pepto-bismol ad eh? If I weren't required to have it for the fields at which I fly, I would drop AMA faster than you can remember the rest of that singing ad.

-Steve

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Of all the services provided, here's a short list of those I use.

The 72 mhz. frequency band. Without the AMA it would not be available. If not for 72 mhz, none of the following frequencies currently in use for modeling would have likely ever happened.

Insurance if it's ever truly needed.

A magazine that provides me with a wide array of information covering many facets of the hobby. This permits me to broaden my interests into areas that I would not have considered otherwise.

AMA insured flying fields, maintained by clubs. The insurance coverage permits the land owners to feel more secure in permitting a potentially dangerous activity on their land.

An organization that interacts with the federal government regarding airspace issues and regulations that could negatively impact my pursuit of happiness.

Like I said, it's a short list. I use more, but that's all the typing I'm inclined to do tonight.

jetmech05

For 58 bucks:
I get a magazine I enjoy.
I get to fly at a field thats 15 minutes from my home.
I get insurance,(required to fly at said field)
someone, from lessons learned, made a list of safety rules that are reasonable
IMO that aint bad for 58
Plus I understand thet represent our interests with the FAA and FCC

perhaps we should re-name this portion of RC Universe the pi** and moan thread

Mode One

Ptulmer, (I realize the above was stated by Lomcevak Duck, however!) You and many others ask those of us whom are not dead set against the AMA, to explain why we feel the way we do, to sell you on the value of the organization and being a member. We have done this add-nauseum! The above statement by Mr. Duck, is typical of what we see from those who are opposed. No explaination, only statements to the effect, that they hate the AMA, or that the AMA is pretty much useless!

Now, the reality of the situation is, even if you and Mr. Duck were to explain your reasons for: hating, disliking, lack of interest in, the AMA, it's unlikely you could dissuade those of us who: like, love or are o.k. with it. Therefore it certainly is reasonable that you have your opinions. Given this, it is also reasonable for us to assume the following isn't really true: "Sway me. Change my mind".