The Myth Of Tiger 112  
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All Forums >> RC Cars, Buggies, Trucks, Tanks and more >> RC Tanks >> War Room >> The Myth Of Tiger 112
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The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 6/6/2007 10:02:02 AM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I feel compelled to write about an error I see reported over and over again in my search for information about pz.abt 501.

The captured Tiger tank in Tunisia, number 712 is not the former 112. Despite obvious evidence that it is a 2nd Kompanie tank it's reported over and over as a the 112 and even today wears this mistaken turret number.

How do I know it's not 112? Here, take a look at the first two photos. Notice the gouge from a hit on the front plate above where the tow shackle mounts? A very unique identifier!

Because of the numbering system used when the 501st was absorbed into the 10th Panzer Division the 112 became the 724. Some say 112s serial number is 250012, that maybe so but it doesn't preclude a hull number. The 250011 was the 231 of the 2nd Kompanie completed to a later fitment then the 1st Kompanie tanks!

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< Message edited by swathdiver -- 6/6/2007 10:05:08 AM >

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James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?
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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 6/6/2007 10:24:37 AM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		So what tank is it? Probably the 212 and I'm not sure. What is certain is that it's a 2nd Kompanie tank.

The 2 Kompanie tanks were completed after the 1st Kompanie and their track stowage box was mounted like all later Tigers on the leftside of the rear plate on a bracket. Examining photos of the 712 at Aberdeen confirm the mounts. 2nd Kompanie tanks had spare track link brackets mounted on their glacis plate not on the bottom of their rear hull plate. 2nd Kompanie tanks also mounted spare track links on the lower front plate but upside down compared to our models, they used two bars of metal going across the front to hold the links in place. The weld marks are still visible today where they once were. Of course everyone knows the 1st Kompanie mounted their headlights down low, it's impossible to do on a 2nd Kompanie tank because of the spare track brackets. Check out the photos below and tell me what you think.

Why the number changes? After the 501 was absorbed into the 10th PzDiv there was a reorganization after the debacle at Beja where 7 Tigers were knocked out. Then all the remaining 8 Kompanie tanks were absorbed into the 7th Kompanie of the 7th PzRgt and it appears not all were re-numbered. Some were because we have photos of two 833 tanks of the 8th Kompanie of the 7th PzRgt, one a Tiger and the other a PZIII.

So that's my theory and I believe it's pretty solid. Why would the museum in Munster not realize this?



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_____________________________

James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

(in reply to swathdiver)
       Post #: 2

RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 6/6/2007 2:51:28 PM   
Stern



Posts: 665
Joined: 11/27/2005
From: rosenberg, GERMANY
Status: offline 		Thanks for your thoughts !
This is what historic tanks makes so interesting - the search is the goal !

Towards the discriped tank I do have no knowledge ... but maybe this can help you:



Here you will find more pictures

Here is the story about the tank

Translation Help !

Greetings


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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 6/6/2007 6:54:24 PM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		That's the tank I'm talking about. You can just make out the 8 underneath the 7 in that picture. The spare track links are still installed on the glacis plate. Also, they took the front mud guards from a 504 tank and installed them by this time. Right before shipping it back to the USA.

_____________________________

James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

(in reply to Stern)
       Post #: 4

RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 6/8/2007 4:21:24 PM   
Stern



Posts: 665
Joined: 11/27/2005
From: rosenberg, GERMANY
Status: offline 		Really not my "field" the 112 - but I tried to translate the story into a short summary ... if you want to discuss your point - feel free to write in english in the linked forum - they will try to answer you !

--------------
Tiger I "112", chassis number 250012, was the 3rd Tiger that had been unloaded in Africa - at the 23.11.42 in Bizerta at Tunis.


Tiger of the 2/ 501


At the 01.12.1942 had the Tiger 112, 124, 131 and 142 (together with 4 Panzer III N - 7,5 cm short) their first battle contact ( 3 hours) with tanks (Sherman, General Lee and M3 Scout Car) of the 1. US-PzDiv. 34 tanks were destroyed. No Tiger was lost.

At the 18.01.43 the 112 had his second deployment at Djebel Solbai - but there had been no real battle.

A big success for the 1./501 was the 19.01.43. The 1./501 made a push at Hamra and got 106 vehicles and 25 new cannons.
This day brought also the first problems for the Tiger - engine problems, that were solved by the mechanics till the next mornig.

In the morning of the 21.1.1943 the "fight group 501" reached the crossing Ousselteia-Kairouan, where soldiers of the infantry had notified a birtish tank crowd. 56 tanks of different types in a dip. 12 tanks attaked the 2. Zug 1./501 - after the shot of 3 of their tanks the british tanks went away.

In a battle in the night of the 22.01.1943 the 501 including Tiger 112 fought a british attack with tanks back. Tiger 112 got in this night a hit at the KWK that could be still seen. Own tanks losts happened not in that night.

After this time the 501 had been divided. The 1./501 came to Zaghouan and the 2./501 to Pout du Fahs.
The 1./501 came to the 10. Panzerdivision (PzRegt 7) as 7. schwere Kompanie (heavy tank companie).

At the 14.02.43 the campaign "Frühlingswind" was started - end at the 17.02.1943 . All Tiger of the 1./501 got new turret numbers - the „112“ became „712“ - the Tiger of the 2./501 became „8XX“, that were included to the 10. PzDiv as 8. schwere Kompanie.
The 1./501 had 1/3 of the success of 165 shot enimy-tanks.

At the end of February the 1./sPzAbt 504 with 11 Tiger had landed in Afrika. The last sign of "112" is in fights of the 504.

Tiger I „712“ - "112" had been found on the 21.04.1943 at Medjez-el-Bab - no crew. 112 went then from the British to the American.

------------------

Beneath the above mentioned hit at the KWK of Tiger 112, that still can be seen ... Just an idea - maybe the confusion about the number is caused, because Tiger 112 had been "cleaned" in 1944 !?! Maybe he got then the wrong 8XX and short time later the "correct" 712 !?!





Greetings

< Message edited by Stern -- 6/8/2007 4:47:48 PM >

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Fast as grayhounds - dogged as leather - hard as Krupp-steel

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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 6/8/2007 6:54:14 PM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the post, I've read that before and it has some errors. There was no Tiger with turret number 124, that would have been a PZIII. The photographic record does not support that 112 became 712. I think most of these posters regurgitate information read from books without doing a photo analysis as I have done.

I welcome any more information or debate over my contention that the 112 was the 724 and the Tiger now in Munster was from the 2 Kompanie.

Thanks Stern!

_____________________________

James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 2/27/2008 8:49:30 AM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Since the time of this posting I've learned a couple of new things about Tiger's of the 501st. The last couple of Tigers belonging to the 2 Kompanie, including the 712 and 833 were completed with 1 piece track guards and the hinged front mud guards as seen on later tanks. I earlier surmised that these had been purloined off a 504 Tiger, they are original.

An interesting note is that the 712 to this day wears at least one of the early style 2 piece side mud guards. You can see it changing positions in various photographs over the years. Must have lost one and grabbed one from another tank.

Have also learned that 2 Kompanie tanks were all odd numbered. Even numbers went to the PZIIIs. Thus there was 211, 213, 221, 223, 231, 233, 241, 243 and a company commander numbered tank 200. No photographs exist of 200, 211 and 221. The 213 became the 813, the 223 and 233 were blown up together at Beja as 823 and 833 respectively. 231 was never renumbered, it was one of the first losses.

Examining photographs of 712 leads me to strongly consider that it might have been the 813. Either that or 811.

Some of the confusion about 712 being 112 comes from the fact that its instrument console came from the 112 which is serial number 250012. I've gotten my hands on some new photographs and you can just make out the serial number in 2 places, on the front plate and on the jack block. One of the first 2 tanks issued to the 501st was sent back to the factory 2 months after issue and presumably returned as we have photos of both 250011 (231 tank) and 250012 (112) tank in Tunisia. Somewhere along the way 250031 (712) must have gotten its hands on the panel.

There's tons of other detail items too, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask and please don't hesitate to contribute your knowledge to the topic!

_____________________________

James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 3/28/2008 9:04:01 PM   
modelbob


 

Posts: 4
Joined: 3/4/2008
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I first saw Tiger 712 in 1955 inside the Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen when I was a teenager.I
I had my trusty Brownie Hawkeye camera, measuring tape, paper and pencile. Took several pictures and many measurements since I was going to make a model of her. She was in her original colors, and covered with ordnance shipping markings. I remember her colors as being
a grey with a very slight greenish tinge, not sand as most most North African vehicles. The ordnance markings were some yellow, some white. Unfortunately the pictures I took were in
black and white, I'll have to look for them. Anyway I hope she gets back to the USA soon!
modelbob@hotmail.com

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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 3/29/2008 5:39:24 AM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		This would be great! Was that when it was sitting next to the King Tiger? Do you remember seeing the previous turret numbers sticking through the paint underneath the 712?

The second photograph shows the tank in what appears to be 2 different colors. I know it'd been through a lot and could have been previous colors bleeding through at that point.

Do you know what kind and year car that is in the background? I used to know, memory is going quick!

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James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

(in reply to modelbob)
       Post #: 9

RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 3/29/2008 4:46:06 PM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Ok, sent the picture to my Uncle who knows cars as better then women! He said it's a 1972 Ford, either an LTD or Galaxie. So there goes my original paint theory!

_____________________________

James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

(in reply to swathdiver)
       Post #: 10

RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 3/29/2008 5:25:57 PM   
modelbob


 

Posts: 4
Joined: 3/4/2008
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Well , I found the pictures, only 6 small snapshots. Three of them show the interior. The left side hull and turret were cut open to view the interior at that time. She was displayed inside next to the TigerII. Other shots show suspension, sproket and roadwheels all closeups. One shot shows the front half of the right side hull and turret. Clearly shows the square armored
"patch" and the number 2. So much for the pictures.
For a really good history of 712 get a copy of "Tiger Without a Home" By Richard Cox, published by the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum Foundation, Inc. Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland 21005 $9.95. This is the difinitive history and covers shipment from Germany to
North Africa, battles, capture, shipment to U.S., evaluation, etc. etc. to 1995.
modelbob@hotmail.com

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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 3/29/2008 5:45:12 PM   
swathdiver



Posts: 3716
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Boynton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for looking would still enjoy seeing them if you get them loaded. I've been looking for that book on ebay. Is it still available at APG?

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James -
You do have spare boards, don't you?

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RE: The Myth Of Tiger 112 - 3/29/2008 6:56:05 PM   
modelbob