DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...!

DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...!
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DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/24/2007 10:17:34 PM

FL_PI

Posts: 84
Joined: 5/30/2007
From: Kennedy Space Center, FL, USA
Status: offline

Hello all. I have had my DF for a month now, and after simulator time, I decided today was the day to try to turn on the df and spool up the motors and MAYBE get a little low level hover time with the tether cord.

No such luck so far. With manual in hand, I finally figured out how to turn it on and push the "arm" button, I set it down on level ground and waited for a few moments and began to spool up the motors. But only the front, rear and left motors were spooling up until it was about ready to lift off and of course it was wanting to tip over to the right because the right motor was not even turning yet.

So I ended up putting it on top of the case on a table and held it down with my hand on the
canopy and did a run up with the throttle and did eventually get all four motors turning (at maybe three quarters throttle?) and it was actually kind of hovering against my hand about 4 inches above the case. With it doing that, I manipulated the control levers and I could get it to move (tip) left and right, fore and aft, and I even had it yaw left and right, so I know everything seems to be "working" right, but when I spool it back down, the right motor stops first and when I stop it and start over, the right motor will not begin turning until all the other three are really going and generating lift.

Having read so much of the posting done here, I have tried rotating all four of the props/motors by hand and all four FEEL similar as far as restriction of movement, but none of them rotate what *I* would describe as "freely". If I try to "spin" any of the rotors and remove my finger from pushing the blade, the blades STOP immediately with no "free" spin down of any kind on any of the four.

One other thought I have is that on the simulator, I had moved the trim quite a bit on the various trim levers to get the simulator DF to hover fairly well, and I am wondering if the trim perhaps could be keeping the right motor from spooling up until so late? The "trim" on my transmitter seems to be one that you make electronic "clicks" right or left and the "lever" remains in the same position not at all like the transmitter on the CX2 that Bruce (BB_DF) recommended I also practice with. Those trim levers actually move in relation to the case. So, with my DF's transmitter I can not just look at the trim tabs and tell where each one is "set".

Is it POSSIBLE that I may have the trim set so far to the left that it could be "retarding" the right motor?

I have the DF TI V Pro with the Hitec Optic 6 transmitter.

Sure would appreciate the wonderful advise I see on here all of the time! Thanks in advance guys!

Ed

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/25/2007 1:33:39 AM

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

Hi Ed,

Exciting, eh? You probably have the HD motors and they do not turn freely at all. You can turn them but it is like a rotating into notched positions. They also do not typically all come up at the same time so you have to "goose" the throttle to get them started and quicky back it down a little to keep DF close to the ground. I went through the exact same thing the first time I attempted flight. I think you will find that these easy to make training wheels will help a lot since they prevent the tipping which allows the blades to hit the ground:

Training Wheels

Also, make sure that when you start the calibration that all the trims are set to zero. You want to determine the trim from the all zero position and not from any settings you used in the simulator.

Finally, I recommend that you NOT fly in TI mode until you can at least hover above the ground for a couple of minutes with TI mode OFF.

Of course, I assume you have read all of Sky High's FAQ pinned at the top of this forum.

(And as hard as it might seem to fly at first, after a while you'll wonder why you thought it was so difficult, almost like riding a bike)

Mike

(in reply to FL_PI)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/25/2007 3:44:12 AM

FL_PI

Posts: 84
Joined: 5/30/2007
From: Kennedy Space Center, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

Hi Ed,

Exciting, eh? You probably have the HD motors and they do not turn freely at all. You can turn them but it is like a rotating into notched positions. They also do not typically all come up at the same time so you have to "goose" the throttle to get them started and quicky back it down a little to keep DF close to the ground. I went through the exact same thing the first time I attempted flight. I think you will find that these easy to make training wheels will help a lot since they prevent the tipping which allows the blades to hit the ground:

Hello Mike,
I have read many of your posts and followed closely your video "trials" and TI flight recently.
Sooooo....... is it *SAFE* to "ASSUME" then, that the motors will "break in" or "wear in" and perhaps get closer to spooling up together?
I found it VERY disconcerting to have the one side lifting off the ground and the other set of blades had not even begun to turn.
I notice in your "inside" video that you have yours pretty well controlled by now for the indoors flight(s).

quote:

Training Wheels

Also, make sure that when you start the calibration that all the trims are set to zero. You want to determine the trim from the all zero position and not from any settings you used in the simulator.

*THIS* is a LARGE question in my mind about the transmitter. First, am I correct in assuming that the trim settings do NOT change from session to session if you do not manually change them?
And if so, if you know anything about the Hitex Optic 6, HOW do you tell when it is centered (the trim) because as I mentioned, as best *I* can tell, the trim switches on my transmitter are SLIDE switches that are spring loaded and remain in the "center" position and I make adjustments by sliding the switch to click one or more times in either direction to make the trim adjustments. So if I have left the transmitter sit for a week or so (or even a DAY in my case) I have no recollection of how many clicks which way from center I have set the trim. I just know that I had the trim set to keep (in this case the simulator) the machine flying with as little movement as possible as far as the trim settings go. Have I explained that ok?

quote:

Finally, I recommend that you NOT fly in TI mode until you can at least hover above the ground for a couple of minutes with TI mode OFF.

Oh, yes, that was certainly my intent, in fact I had it connected to the "tether cord" and a gel battery I have purchased just for the "extra" needs for 12 volt power relative to using this machine and the video system.

quote:

Of course, I assume you have read all of Sky High's FAQ pinned at the top of this forum.

Oh yes, I have read as much of this Forum as I can possibly fit into my schedule and I have quite literally given up entire weekends reading the forum, studying as many of the videos, pictures and as much information as I can. I literally studied this group for hints and information for several MONTHS before making the final decision to call DFI and ordering mine. And I even scanned through the FAQ's you refer to, as completely as I could looking for this specific "problem" tonite before I even made my post, as I was afraid that this had been covered somewhere before and I missed it somehow.

quote:

(And as hard as it might seem to fly at first, after a while you'll wonder why you thought it was so difficult, almost like riding a bike)

Mike

Well, I was beginning to THINK that I was learning on the simulator and getting the handling down to some degree, but then I found the setting where your point of view does not change as opposed to the "following camera" version. Then I found I have a very difficult time seeing and recognizing from a distance which blade is the front. Which of course all of you guys have covered so thoroughly with all of the lights and other forms of designating the front of the machine.
And since I also took Bruce's (BB_DF) suggestion to buy and practice with a CX2 to "transition" from simulator to real air I am seeing that once you get out of ground effect it doesn't seem as difficult as some of it with the simulator.

Lastly Mike, may I inquire as to the huge tower in the trees at the edge of your lot. I have looked THAT over quite a bit in your videos too. Is it also safe to *assume* that you may be a ham operator? I am an extra class licensee and stuff like that catches my eye. In fact, in viewing so many of the "nick names" on these forums, I think I see quite a large percentage that appear to be hams.
One of the things in the back of my mind to use the DF for, in addition to as much use as I can in my work, is to hopefully use it to video connections etc., on towers such as that one in the side of your yard, thus (hopefully) reducing a bunch of climbing just to inspect stuff. I was just discussing that very thing with an acquaintance this morning, who has a 150' tower.

Thanks again for your information and taking your time to help out.

ED

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/25/2007 5:25:51 AM

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FL_PI

"Also, make sure that when you start the calibration that all the trims are set to zero. You want to determine the trim from the all zero position and not from any settings you used in the simulator."

*THIS* is a LARGE question in my mind about the transmitter. First, am I correct in assuming that the trim settings do NOT change from session to session if you do not manually change them?
And if so, if you know anything about the Hitex Optic 6, HOW do you tell when it is centered (the trim) because as I mentioned, as best *I* can tell, the trim switches on my transmitter are SLIDE switches that are spring loaded and remain in the "center" position and I make adjustments by sliding the switch to click one or more times in either direction to make the trim adjustments. So if I have left the transmitter sit for a week or so (or even a DAY in my case) I have no recollection of how many clicks which way from center I have set the trim. I just know that I had the trim set to keep (in this case the simulator) the machine flying with as little movement as possible as far as the trim settings go. Have I explained that ok?

Sorry but I do not have any experience with the Hitex Optic 6. The Futaba shows the amount of trim in the LCD so it is easy to see and return to zero. Maybe someone here can shed some light on that for you. If you are flying with TI OFF, you can keep the same trim between flights. With my two Draganfliers, I have found that if the motors are all adjusted (by loosening the screw on the motor mount and twisting back and forth) to be very straight up in alignment, you need little or no trim when flying with TI OFF. Even a slight angle on one of the motors will require extra trim. Of course, flying with TI ON is an entirely different story as you've probably seen from previous posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FL_PI

Lastly Mike, may I inquire as to the huge tower in the trees at the edge of your lot. I have looked THAT over quite a bit in your videos too. Is it also safe to *assume* that you may be a ham operator? I am an extra class licensee and stuff like that catches my eye. In fact, in viewing so many of the "nick names" on these forums, I think I see quite a large percentage that appear to be hams.
One of the things in the back of my mind to use the DF for, in addition to as much use as I can in my work, is to hopefully use it to video connections etc., on towers such as that one in the side of your yard, thus (hopefully) reducing a bunch of climbing just to inspect stuff. I was just discussing that very thing with an acquaintance this morning, who has a 150' tower.

Thanks again for your information and taking your time to help out.

ED

You assumption is correct. I am also an extra class (AF9Y) and you now know why I use the name "Old Man Mike". I own 20 acres and have two ham towers. The one close to the house is a typical HF/2mtr system with a 85 foot tower supporting an A4 Tribander and wire antennas. I've designed a motorized system to tilt it over so climbing is not necessary. The big tower in the field is a 2mtr Moonbounce array with six 42 foot boom 2mtr antennas that can track in AZ. EL and Polarity. I need to do some repairs on it since the last ice storm broke a couple of the yagis. That system is also designed to tilt over so that climbing is not required. You can see more details here:

AF9Y Website

If you have your HF station operational, maybe we could try to link up and talk more. It would be a good excuse to fire up the rig. Of course, the easiest thing today is to get on a Ventrilo channel with the computer.

I am most happy to be of any help. BB_DF and Sky High were a big help to me when I first started flying the DF. It was only a few months ago that I was going thru all the same things you are now. It seems like the learning curve is almost impossible in the beginning but then it seems to improve on an exponential basis. I can now walk around the yard and fly the DF in front of me like walking a dog with a few 360 degree spins thrown in.

Mike

(in reply to FL_PI)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/26/2007 1:53:48 AM

FL_PI

Posts: 84
Joined: 5/30/2007
From: Kennedy Space Center, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

Sorry but I do not have any experience with the Hitex Optic 6. The Futaba shows the amount of trim in the LCD so it is easy to see and return to zero. Maybe someone here can shed some light on that for you. If you are flying with TI OFF, you can keep the same trim between flights. With my two Draganfliers, I have found that if the motors are all adjusted (by loosening the screw on the motor mount and twisting back and forth) to be very straight up in alignment, you need little or no trim when flying with TI OFF. Even a slight angle on one of the motors will require extra trim. Of course, flying with TI ON is an entirely different story as you've probably seen from previous posts.

Ok then, that gives me something to look for. I had pretty well set down in my mind to read through whatever information there is that came with the DF and Hitex, to try to find any and all that I must have obviously missed about the Hitex Optic 6. I *thought* I had read everything at least once!
I know that it has an lcd screen and that there are several buttons on both sides of the screen, but I have been so focused on trying to get the simulator df to fly that I have touched nothing on the controls other than the two main levers and the trim tabs. I figured that it was set up to fly the thing and as long as I keep my fingers off everything else, hopefully I would not mess anything up.

As in my other "projects" such as in the ham realm, I tend to "over engineer" and I didn't want to get into the "guts" of this thing just yet. I also tend to be very conservative especially when it approaches possibly damaging something $pendy.... So I have no problem asking questions hopefully BEFORE I break something. Which is why I asked this post instead of just jamming the throttle and turning the thing over...

quote:

You assumption is correct. I am also an extra class (AF9Y) and you now know why I use the name "Old Man Mike". I own 20 acres and have two ham towers. The one close to the house is a typical HF/2mtr system with a 85 foot tower supporting an A4 Tribander and wire antennas. I've designed a motorized system to tilt it over so climbing is not necessary. The big tower in the field is a 2mtr Moonbounce array with six 42 foot boom 2mtr antennas that can track in AZ. EL and Polarity. I need to do some repairs on it since the last ice storm broke a couple of the yagis. That system is also designed to tilt over so that climbing is not required. You can see more details here:

AF9Y Website

If you have your HF station operational, maybe we could try to link up and talk more. It would be a good excuse to fire up the rig. Of course, the easiest thing today is to get on a Ventrilo channel with the computer.

Wow! I knew it *LOOKED* good from the df's view!
I do have my HF rig operational, but I can not tell you even close to when I last turned it on. I am so busy with work, and so rarely have time to "play" that I even used that excuse to put an HF rig into my car. But then I hate to get into a conversation in the car, because I can just envision, (and has happened a few times) that in the middle of conversation I get to a place where I need to get out of the car for a couple of minutes, and I don't want to stifle the flow of the conversation. So I rarely turn it on either, although as you well know that it can, I have talked from the car to islands down off the coast of South America, up to Toronto, Maine, Minnesota, Seattle area, California, Leavenworth Kansas of all places ! and so many more.
But I would be happy to attempt a radio chat someday if it can fall into our schedules. I only carry (ironhorse) hamsticks in the car for 10, 20 and 40. I have others but don't carry them. And I run a Kenwood TS-830S into a G5RV at the QTH.
MOST of my ham activities at this point are all EMCOMM related. I am the AEC for our end of the county and as you probably know, that means if anything nasty comes up it is my responsibility to get the volunteer communicators into the shelters and then run the net for our area and to pass traffic from and to the central EOC from our local EOC and to and from the shelters....

quote:

I am most happy to be of any help. BB_DF and Sky High were a big help to me when I first started flying the DF. It was only a few months ago that I was going thru all the same things you are now. It seems like the learning curve is almost impossible in the beginning but then it seems to improve on an exponential basis. I can now walk around the yard and fly the DF in front of me like walking a dog with a few 360 degree spins thrown in.

Mike

Thank you so much! And yes, both BB_DF and Sky High also have been VERY helpful both in their posts and in direct answers to me.
This seems to be such a great group and all so ready to lend an assist.
And I am certainly feeling the STEEP learning curve! I have so much to learn, not just about the DF, but I have NO R/C experience so EVERYTHING is NEW to me! Between this forum and one for the CX2, I am really learning a LOT! Not really understanding everything yet, but learning! (anyone know what an ESC is?)<grin>

Thanks again!
73,
Ed

KG4KVO

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/26/2007 2:34:15 AM

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

Ed,

Just wanted you to know that the DF is also my first venture into R/C so once again, we share a very similar experience.

Mike

(in reply to FL_PI)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 6/26/2007 4:27:02 AM

FL_PI

Posts: 84
Joined: 5/30/2007
From: Kennedy Space Center, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

Ed,

Just wanted you to know that the DF is also my first venture into R/C so once again, we share a very similar experience.

Mike

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the encouragement!
I just finished going through the book for the Hitec Optic 6 transmitter.
Don't you just KNOW that when I first looked through the book, I failed to see the destructions for the thing, because I thought it said setup for AIRPLANES, and since the Df ain't no 'plane, I skipped over those pages..... After MUCH perusing and re-reading, I FINALLY found the part about TRIM..... And it says that the "optic 6" KEEPS the trim settings for each aircraft between sessions. (you can program up to EIGHT aircraft "profiles" into it's memories)
So I checked out the TRIM settings for profile number one and I had both the YAW and the left/right set to +30 and +29 respectively. The throttle and fore/aft pitch trims were each ZERO. Geez, now I can hardly wait for an opportunity to get the DF out of the box and see if that had any effect on it!

At least NOW I Know that I can LOOK at the settings! And I WAS correct about the "slider" switches. the book calls it "digital" trim settings. It even has adjustment(s) for SUB TRIMS!
This being my FIRST R/C controller/transmitter, I think that this one is one heck of a FANCY gadget! All of this digital stuff, and on my very FIRST machine!
NOW, lemme see.... EIGHT machines POSSIBLE, huh?.... Hmmmmm.....

Thanks AGAIN!
Ed

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 7/4/2007 7:26:11 PM

FL_PI

Posts: 84
Joined: 5/30/2007
From: Kennedy Space Center, FL, USA
Status: offline

Well folks, Just an update on my incompetence as a NEWBIE.

Today, the 4th of July, I finally had "time" to again attempt discovery of the "flight" of the DF for real, as opposed to simulator time.....
I *was* going to start the flight practice with the CX2 outside that BB_DF suggested, but quickly decided that the breeze was too much for that machine, as I had read it doesn't like wind AT ALL.
I took the DF out to the carport and hooked it up with the tether cord and fired it up like I did a couple of weekends ago and this time the right motor spooled up just fine with the others. Perhaps the "burn in" from a couple of weeks ago helped in some fashion?

So with that "problem" overcome I just began like the book says and "skidded" it around the floor of the carport. It was a bit breezy and I definitely got to see how the wind gusts affect this thing and I managed to skid it around or do very short "hops" with it to familiarize myself with the controls.
I must admit that I wondered HOW someone could "lose" a machine like the gentleman posted last week, but I DEFINITELY can agree with his comment about how FAST this thing is especially in response to control inputs, even though I never got more than inches above the floor at anytime so far. (I have the transmitter and batteries on charge right now)
I really do believe that the simulator time also was a definite plus, but it is as you probably know, not 100% like the real machine. But I was able to move it around with the only real problem was occasionally getting the tether cord caught in a prop, and one time it came back at me faster than I anticipated and a blade struck the alligator clip on the tether cord at the battery and knocked it into the other and... hmmm a little FIRE!
But it was ONLY the clips and some insulation, nothing on the DF!
After that I unhooked the tether and switched over to a battery.

So, after the batteries charge, perhaps I can get in a bit more time today, but I can guarantee you that FINALLY getting a little bit of time has done nothing but whet my appetite to get back to it for more...

(in reply to FL_PI)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 7/5/2007 2:21:26 AM

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

Excellent. I think it is time to unleash the beast. But first, are you flying in the training mode (assuming that the Hitec has a training position)? If not, I can understand that it might first appear to be very sensitive to your joystick movments. You will find over time that it is a real advantage to have that quick response but during the early flying it can make things more difficult to learn.

Concentrate on trying to get it to hover about two feet off the ground keeping it inside of an imaginary 10 foot circle. Then a 5 foot circle. Once you can do that for several minutes you will be on your way to some higher flying.

Keep us up to date with your progress since it brings back memories for all of us.

Mike

(in reply to FL_PI)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 7/5/2007 4:16:25 AM

FL_PI

Posts: 84
Joined: 5/30/2007
From: Kennedy Space Center, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

Excellent. I think it is time to unleash the beast. But first, are you flying in the training mode (assuming that the Hitec has a training position)? If not, I can understand that it might first appear to be very sensitive to your joystick movments. You will find over time that it is a real advantage to have that quick response but during the early flying it can make things more difficult to learn.

Concentrate on trying to get it to hover about two feet off the ground keeping it inside of an imaginary 10 foot circle. Then a 5 foot circle. Once you can do that for several minutes you will be on your way to some higher flying.

Keep us up to date with your progress since it brings back memories for all of us.

Mike

Yes, the Hitec does have a switch that DFI has labeled for training or advan which I take to be "advanced"
However, I ASSUMED (you know what *that* does) that the training position was for when someone else like an instructor or someone with experience was connected with another transmitter connected to the "trainee" transmitter with the "training cable" I had seen mentioned in the book.
Again, I have not been just flipping switches, thinking that they had it set at the factory, etc., and I'd be best to not be just flipping switches and turning knobs, etc. And this transmitter has all kinds of "extra" switches and buttons.
The switch is in the "Advan" position.
While I did not get it to hovering above just a few inches, I did move it around within the reaches of the 12 foot tether cord, all on the carport. I am pretty much just concentrating on maintaining a low hover, and getting the "feel" of the controls and the responses.
But as for the rapidity of the response for example, since I am just hovering a couple inches or more, when I do a FORWARD move, this thing tips right up and heads out QUICKLY, and I think I may have even grazed the floor with the blades, although to no harm.
I'm thinking my larger "problem" for now is that I do not have the "fine" movements needed to make the very subtle changes to maintaining a stable hover. My old fingers want to make larger movements of the sticks, especially when it starts to head out quicker than I anticipated. so I am working on trying to use smaller inputs on the sticks and then next is co-ordinating the two sticks to make smooth changes such as now I pretty much stop and then use the yaw to change the front to face the direction I want it to go. I know as I progress that I should be doing yaw AND aileron, but right now it is one or the other pretty much.
But I am just happy that with the use of the simulator that I didn't do like I did when I first hooked up the simulator. I couldn't keep the thing from flipping over in the first seconds of operation for probably most of the first half hour of simulation.
So I am very happy with the status that with last week's spool up differential, and today's work that I did not flip it over and damage anything. I got a few nicks in the blades from the few times the tether cord got in the way, but with the folding blades that was no real problem.

Sky was correct about my question of the blades hitting the motor mounting screws. Apparently when rotating they flex or something so that they never hit. When I was rotating the blades by hand they would hit on about every rotation.

I didn't get to do any more today, but I am definitely looking for the next time I can work some time into my "schedule". It was great! And I really look forward to making the progress to higher hover, better maneuvering and eventually to getting some height and really fly it.

What possible difference would changing the switch to "Training" be? I'll have to see if I can find that in the book. Obviously when I saw the mention of the training cable and NOT having a training cable or instructor to connect to, I skipped that section too.... NOW I'm going to have to try to find out if there is a difference......?!

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

RE: DF Spool up - NEWBIE pilot...! - 7/5/2007 5:19:18 AM

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

There could be a training (copy function) spring switch which is not what we are talking about here. If it is like the Futaba transmitter, then the training position has already been set by the Draganflyer folks to be less sensitive. The function is actually called a dual rate switch where you normally program one position for fast response and the other for training or slow response. All you might need to do is put the switch in the training position and see if the sensitivity is reduced to something you like better. You may be in for quite a treat if this is the case.

Mike

(in reply to FL_PI)