Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (Full Version)

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DrScoles -> Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 4:31:42 PM)

I built one last year, love it. Finished the second one yesterday, and realized(after I was done) that I didn't narrow the chord towards the wingtip. What is this going to do for performance. The chord should be around 5" at the tip, and mine is 5 3/4" Curious to see if I notice a difference....

Mike



The Internet Killer -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 5:02:35 PM)

I didn't narrow mine either, as long as both wing tips have
the same cord, shouldn't be a big disadvantage, but I could be wrong.



Montague -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 5:23:16 PM)

I doubt you'll notice much. I take it you're supposed to trim off some of the trailing edge?

At worst, your TE is a bit thin, which could make the aileron mount a little fragile, or it could cause odd airflow around the aileron which might cause wing flexing and/or aileron flutter or a little extra drag. But that's all "worst case", I doubt you'll notice any change at all as long as both tips match (or are at least close).



The Internet Killer -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 5:43:01 PM)

Hey, Doc, noticed your in Redmond Wa, if your ever up to a drive they are holding combat
every other Friday evening at Bellair Flyers in Bellingham.

Mr Monty Sir, I have a question for you if I may. My newly repaired avenger rolls left at launch,
flys straight hands off, niether climbs or dives when power is cut, and rolls to the left are fairly axial,
but rolls to the right involve a large dive as it goes inverted. Any suggestions ???
( I should add, it has a single aireron servo)



Montague -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 5:57:03 PM)

Hmm, that's a rough one.

If it was me, I'd probably ignore the going left on launch as long as the plane didn't also go left in a hard turn or loop.

When I trim fly, one of the most important thing I do is max rate turns left and right. Any oddity in the rudder trim (twisted vertical stab for example) or wing oddities will often show up there with the plane always stalling the same way.

The rolling thing is a little harder to figure, but it's probably one of a couple of things. It might just be your thumb moving off-center a little as you do the roll, and feeding in some elevator.

Assuming it's not that, you might try some vertical rolls, espeically at idle in a vertical dive. It's most likely that you have a something in the aileron travel that's causing the ailerons to deflect unevenly. That uneven deflection is leading to just about a perfect amount of differential for a left roll, but a totally wrong diferential for a right roll. It's not uncommon for me to have a plane that rolls one way better than the other, or is more axial in one way than the other and unless it's really bad I usually don't sweat it. (after all, combat wings often get "dynamically re-trimmed", so a lot of time spent getting it "perfect" can easily be wasted when someone hits the wing and moves stuff around on you).

Which also reminds me, make sure you're wing is on straight and level.

I've also traced that kind of thing to problems with the aileron hinges or a bent pushrod. If the aileron LE can move vertically against the wing TE, then depending on the airflow and the pushrod and aileorn horn arrangement, sometimes servo deflection will rotate the aileron as desired, and sometimes it might move the whole aileron up or down instead, which can do some odd things to the roll. This often shows up as the aileron trim seeming to change a bit in flight on it's own as well, but not always.

Hope that helps.

AJ often reads these forums, hopefully he will pop in and comment on both problems.



The Internet Killer -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 6:02:58 PM)

Thank you, Sir.



Montague -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 6:17:03 PM)

Oh, I forgot, while I do often ignore some left-turn on launch, you might want to look carefully to see if the plane is rolling left, or if it's yawing left then rolling due to the yaw. It happens fast, so you need to watch the nose and get a good, straight launch. If it's yawing left, check the vertical stab for twists and your thrust line. Since your engine is mounted horizontally, make sure the engine mount isn't bent and that there aren't any cracks in the fuse that allow the engine to move.



Capn America -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/26/2007 9:20:10 PM)

I had the same problem with one of my sscavenger wings, try balancing the plane tip to tail and see if its heavy to one wing tip, not likley to be the problem but possible. My problem was a bit of warp in the wing (Ailerons were not centered to counter the wing, had exaxtly the tendancy you described. Wrecked it once and re glued the center and it was fine, must have taken the stress off the warp... Lay the wing out as it was built and look for a warp or twist



The Internet Killer -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/27/2007 6:19:52 AM)

Nope, Sir Monty nailed it. the fuse had a hook to it (bent to the left).
Some not so gentle pressure straightened it up, just have to remember
to check it before the first flight of the day. It may have contributed to
a kind of a corkscrew action in a right hand roll, but I need to play with
it a little because the aireron deflection is not quite even on both wings
either.



DrScoles -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/29/2007 3:31:16 PM)

I flew the crap out of this plane last night, works great! My other avenger can snap with too much elevator, this one holds its line the whole time. I see that Seaholm has used delrin for the engine mount on the new one, I'd like to have a stiffer mount on mine, after a few flights, it bends to the left...

I think I hooked a buddy on combat last night :-) I built avenger #2 solely to drum up interest, (and have someone to play with)

I've done almost every aspect of R/C, turbines, big 3d planes, helis, gliders... combat is the most fun I've had so far! And for the cost of the turbine jet I built, I could buy 35 ready to fly avengers! Defnitely great bang for the buck.

Mike



aimmaintenance -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/30/2007 11:57:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DrScoles

combat is the most fun I've had so far! And for the cost of the turbine jet I built, I could buy 35 ready to fly avengers! Defnitely great bang for the buck.

Mike


I also have more fun with combat than any other aspect of RC. If it wasn't for combat I probably wouldn't be fly much at all. Just watch the burnout factor.
Once ya really get hooked and start traveling a bit to different events. Building 3 or more planes per event. Watching them all get smeared in one day then going home and doing it all over again can get a bit tiresome. I limit myself to just 5 or 6 events a year so I don't turn it into work.
Have a ball with it. It's great fun!



Alex Treneff -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (6/30/2007 5:35:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DrScoles

I built one last year, love it. Finished the second one yesterday, and realized(after I was done) that I didn't narrow the chord towards the wingtip. What is this going to do for performance. The chord should be around 5" at the tip, and mine is 5 3/4" Curious to see if I notice a difference....

Mike


The wing doesn't come already in the right shape? That's interesting. Such a small change will usually not make a large impact on flight characteristics, but I wonder why they left this trimming job up to the builder?

As long as it flies ok, no reason to change it now!





vertical grimmace -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/1/2007 12:11:27 AM)

Yes Alex, that is correct. The Avengers did (do?) not come with the wings already the finished shape. I have built and designed many foam wing airplanes for C\L and R\C combat and blocking out the foam is the first steps in the process of cutting an accurate core. This was one of the very disapointing design aspects of the Avenger in my opinion. That is why i choose to fly the Battle axe. Much easier to build.



sgilkey -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/7/2007 3:58:11 PM)

All that matters with the AVENGER, or any combat plane, is that the span, and root and tip chords, are the same. The instructions say to measure the chords and trimto "spec" but this is an unnecessary step. First, make sure the span is the same on both cores, and if not, trim the longest one at the tip to match the shorter one's span. Then, butt-match the root and tip chords (i.e. just hold them together and eyeball the chord match). If they're the same, you're good. If not, mark how much the wider one needs to be trimmed back at either the root, tip, or both, and use a straightedge (an aluminum yard or meter stick works great) and sharp #11 knife to trim the TE to the proper chord. It helps to have a shallow angle between the blade and the foam (i.e. don't have the knife standing straight up) to keep from snagging/gouging the foam. Trust me, you don't have to trim the core chords "to spec", just match them. On 90+% of our AVENGER cores there is no trimming necessary, the occasional one needs touching up a tiny bit. The end results are worth it- it's the best-flying combat plane out there in any class, IMHO.



WolverineRC -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/8/2007 8:15:12 PM)

And for my $.02


I trim the TE of the cores I cut to match the aileron stock that I'm using at the time and make sure that the tip and root chords are the same on each wing panel.

Also a single edge razor blade works great for cutting the TE of the cores.

And yes them Avengers are darn good flying planes.

Charles



Alex Treneff -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/9/2007 1:53:06 AM)

Just get a Battle Axe and don't worry about trimming any cores!



aseaholm -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/9/2007 2:37:18 PM)

Alex,

Talking smack before a contest is one thing, trying to run down a competitor's product in hopes to boost sales of your own is quite another. People are pretty savvy, these types of tactics rarely work out in the long run.

The sport needs quality kits, which the AXE is, to sustain the event. Competition pushes manufacturers to make a better product. The AVENGER needs the AXE as much as the AXE needs the AVENGER. Each design has it's pros and cons, it's up to the customer to decide which best suits his/her style and needs.

All,

I'm pretty much a lurker on the combat forums these days. Kirk and the other experienced pilots here usually get questions answered before I can get done typing up a reply.

I would like to take a second though and publicly THANK our loyal AVENGER customers. You've kept us going for 6 seasons and over 14 design iterations now. Keep chasing those streamers, providing us with feedback, and having fun...



The Internet Killer -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/9/2007 7:33:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WolverineRC

And for my $.02


I trim the TE of the cores I cut to match the aileron stock that I'm using at the time and make sure that the tip and root chords are the same on each wing panel.

Also a single edge razor blade works great for cutting the TE of the cores.

And yes them Avengers are darn good flying planes.

Charles



Again sir, as a rookie I profusely apologize for the mishap that I had with the end of your streamer on Friday night
and promise you that I will try to not let it happen again.





[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



Montague -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/9/2007 7:38:20 PM)

Well said, AJ.




Alex Treneff -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/10/2007 2:02:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aseaholm

Alex,

Talking smack before a contest is one thing, trying to run down a competitor's product in hopes to boost sales of your own is quite another. People are pretty savvy, these types of tactics rarely work out in the long run.

The sport needs quality kits, which the AXE is, to sustain the event. Competition pushes manufacturers to make a better product. The AVENGER needs the AXE as much as the AXE needs the AVENGER. Each design has it's pros and cons, it's up to the customer to decide which best suits his/her style and needs.

All,

I'm pretty much a lurker on the combat forums these days. Kirk and the other experienced pilots here usually get questions answered before I can get done typing up a reply.

I would like to take a second though and publicly THANK our loyal AVENGER customers. You've kept us going for 6 seasons and over 14 design iterations now. Keep chasing those streamers, providing us with feedback, and having fun...


AJ, I told them if they buy a Battle Axe they won't have to trim cores. Nothing wrong with that. The Avenger is a nice flying plane and I never said anything against it. The people have a right to discuss what it takes to build each kit.

Thanks AJ for your work you do for combat. That's what we're doing as well with the Battle Axe. Two quality kits are better than one.



Demon -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/10/2007 11:03:03 PM)

Alex, please try to be less abrasive.

And AJ, please try to be less sensitive.

If I have to stop this car and separate you two, I swear that we're just going to turn around and go home - and that means no icecream for anyone! [:)] [:D]

D



rollo -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/20/2007 3:30:23 PM)

A moderator with the name DEMON now that's not intimidating. [:)]

On to my question, I just picked up my first combat kit and last night was pondering the covering to use on the wings. I was wondering if anyone has used or thought of using a very light fiberglass cloth. I mean the light stuff maybe 1/4 to 1/2 oz or even lighter. Any thoughts / comments?




Montague -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/20/2007 3:59:56 PM)

You can't go wrong with packing tape. Really, it works great, it's easy to apply, easy to repair, strong, light, and it even heat-shrinks a bit. Glass cloth is heavier and can really come apart on impact, though I do use a little on my wings in the center section to help spread the loads on the spars a little bit.

another problem you will have with putting glass cloth over foam is that the foam will really soak up the epoxy and that adds tons of weight. And I understand that polyester resins will eat the foam.



sgilkey -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/20/2007 4:42:38 PM)

you can apply f/g cloth with water-based PU or latex paint, both of which are reasonably light (compared to epoxy). however i do not recomment f/g cloth covering as it is very brittle and will tear rapidly once a tear is initiated (ie penetration from impact or a prop cut). satisfy yourself of this by covering a scrap panel with f/g cloth, ripstop nylon, tape, or some other material under consideration, and then bend the panel- the f/g covered one will be strong and stiff but it will fail explosively. the tape and RSN covered panels will not be as stiff but will not have the catastrophic failure of f/g. With tape, one strip may burst but the multiple strips have a kind of rip-stop effect that keeps the tear from propagating across the panel



rrh -> RE: Did I screw up the wing on my avenger? (7/20/2007 4:43:50 PM)

There has been some tries with rip stop nylon and waterbased polyurythane but most go back to packing tape after that mess [:'(]



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