RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES
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RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/10/2007 11:20:29 PM

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Joined: 1/23/2002
From: Arcen, , NETHERLANDS
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Isn't it so that any cetane booster will do? I get mine at the local gas station.
It is a pity that the resulting combustion products are corrosive. When I used to use straight 1:1:1 fuel, I never had to worry about after run, open exhaust port storage etc. Even in engine storage for 20 years! Now I have to be careful not to have corroded cylinders, pistons and bearings in two weeks.

_____________________________

Pe, Dealer for MVVS, MTW and Mejzlik; www.mvvs.nl
There is sanctuary in analisys.

(in reply to merugo)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 12:20:26 AM

AMB

Posts: 3948
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: winter park, FL, USA
Status: offline

Pe I have never had a problem with commercial fuel (davis) in theory the nitrite cetane booster could cause problems but a guess the Kero and castor may offset it, one hot and humid day day over a year afo I was flying my diesels and a Saito 56, I had forgot my after run oil after flying the saito I just put in a little dieselfuel hooked up the glow plig, left it on
ran it dry the engine was fine a year later I has used air tool oil, ATF, dieselfuel, in my 4 strokes and have never rusted a bearing actually more diesel in them and never have had rust ,martin Irvine does state to leave the piston at the the bottom of the stroke to air out martin

also my engines and planes are in a spare room not a shed or garage hence no high humidity issues

< Message edited by dieseldan -- 7/11/2007 12:27:40 AM >

(in reply to pe reivers)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 1:57:38 PM

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Joined: 1/23/2002
From: Arcen, , NETHERLANDS
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The corrosion problem was reported to me by a customer. Home brew ether-kero-castor + 2% IPN
He used the 3241 tuned muffler with the engine (steel cylinder + iron piston), but was not sure if oil from the muffler had returned into the cylinder. I advised him to al least disconnect the muffler. With MVVS that is very easy. Just release the spring clip.
Like I said before, never a problem with my ancient 1:1:1 mix, so my (too?) quick conclusion is that IPN must be the corrosion factor. A google search confirmed this. Some of my diesels have been in storage for 30 years without any after run treatment, and still are without corrosion.

_____________________________

Pe, Dealer for MVVS, MTW and Mejzlik; www.mvvs.nl
There is sanctuary in analisys.

(in reply to AMB)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 2:58:38 PM

Posts: 1717
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Bergen, NORWAY
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: merugo

Motorboy,
you have lost your daily occasion to be respectfully silent.

BTW, dear Pinocchio Peugeot Mechanic, if you want to buy one of your well known Peugeots, pls refer to
http://www.krausmotor.de/Peugeot4.htm, they will arrange to fill your boring ignorance finding for you a
Peugeot/Citroën L4 OHV 2498 D J9 2.5 D with engineXD3P (157) for as low as 6.968,87 .
Maybe they will allow you to make a short test run with a bit of turpentine added, and may give also some discount being your colleagues.
Ugo

The engine code in this webside http:www.krausmotor.de/Peugeot4.htm are not all engine code complete as i can compare with the partscatalog and workshop book for Peugeot cars printed by Peugeot Automobiles S.A. The Krausmotoren are a workshop who are ovehauling a lot of engines and do not have complete survey over all motorcodes.

I wrote the engine do not exist XD 3P 157, because you wrote the number 157 are not correct engine code. XD engines are out of production, there are rare see them at road vehicles now in our days. The number 157 or WJZ, WJY etc are lawcode adapted to country who has rules for emission in their country and are wrote in the vehicle identification number (VIN).

How the engine code are wrote:

DW10BTED4, TU5JP4, ET3J4, XD4x90, XD4x88 etc.... Never wrote with "/" as here: TUD3/W, TUD5Y/L3 who are listed in Krausmotor as we has correct engine codes in our catalogs by Peugeot automobiles S.A.

One supplement: Why you are loaning the text XD 3P 157 from webside Krausmotor to make a post as here http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6089119 #17?? To ornamenting your post are not good for RCU folks and here are not place for lie in RCU!

< Message edited by Motorboy -- 7/11/2007 3:31:11 PM >

_____________________________

Jens Eirik
All landings are just controlled crashes!

(in reply to merugo)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 4:29:27 PM

blw

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Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Auburn, AL, USA
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Let's get away from arguing about Peugeot engines please........

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RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 6:15:14 PM

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/12/2004
From: Barrow in Furness, UNITED KINGDOM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pe reivers

FORMULA (in order of decreasing percentage of volume ):
1)-..40..%...ether....
2)-..40...%..Kero....
3)-...20...%..Castor...
4)-....2...%...Truck diesel fuel cetane improver..

The way the mix it was obtained: ..hand mix, ether-to castor, add kero, stir, add cetane booster, stir, store in aluminium flask

1)ENGINE:...MVVS .15 ABC glow conversion...CARBURETOR: .RC.. RUN TIME: .15 minutes .STARTING: ..hand... USER:.me.....
Comments:
four drops prime, engine starts third flip, sometimes tends to bite back, runs with a deep throated bark. Conversion is meant for high rpm operation, where cast iron pistons will be too heavy to balance well.

Hi Pe,
Interesting to see your fuel mix.
Why so much ether ? At 40% it seems a lot, most commercial mixes use about 30% and I have been having success with fuel that has only 10% ether content, Chevy has been doing even better at around 6% ether content.

More Paraffin/kerosene in place of some of the ether.... better power ? Or, do you need the high ether content for cooling at the high RPM's you mention ?

My PAW .15's run very well on 10% ether. I have an MVVS .21 glow that I may convert to diesel some time.... beautiful engines MVVS, run well, start just by glancing at them...... well I guess you already know and that's why you sell them

(in reply to pe reivers)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 7:41:13 PM

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Joined: 1/23/2002
From: Arcen, , NETHERLANDS
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MVVS advises 45% ether!
My old mixes always were 1:1:1 On this mix both MVVS and a russian MARS (MAP3) I have would not start well. Maybe the fuel was too old, so I will make a new batch and see. On the 40-40-20 mix starting of both MVVS and MARS were excellent.

_____________________________

Pe, Dealer for MVVS, MTW and Mejzlik; www.mvvs.nl
There is sanctuary in analisys.

(in reply to slope-soarer)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 9:17:34 PM

Posts: 1717
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Bergen, NORWAY
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: pe reivers

MVVS advises 45% ether!

I has MVVS 2.5 RC, bought in Praque. In user manual are there 45% ether. It has been told the MVVS diesel engine will be less stressed by high ether percentage.

_____________________________

Jens Eirik
All landings are just controlled crashes!

(in reply to pe reivers)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/11/2007 9:43:07 PM

Posts: 2991
Joined: 1/23/2002
From: Arcen, , NETHERLANDS
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I have seen the experiments with very low ether. They do require a high ether prime to get the engine running and up to some temperature. There just ain't no substitute for ether. It is about the only liquid with that low a selfignition temperature, so the compression heat in a cooled down engine will ignite it.
Some makes of diesel engines even required 70% ether, 30% oil, no kero at all. The more kerosene in the fuel, the harder the life of your diesel will be, both in terms of mechanical loads caused by the high required compression ratio, and heat load. You make the choices and take the chances, depending on the use of the engine and life expectancy. If the engine has but one race to go, that choice will be different as when the engine has to serve everyday joy of flight.

_____________________________

Pe, Dealer for MVVS, MTW and Mejzlik; www.mvvs.nl
There is sanctuary in analisys.

(in reply to slope-soarer)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/12/2007 2:11:36 AM

AMB

Posts: 3948
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: winter park, FL, USA
Status: offline

BLW looks like its "DIESEL" the guys get carried away prehaps the best way to handle is thru the private E mail available on the site martin

(in reply to blw)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/12/2007 2:17:47 AM

blw

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Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Auburn, AL, USA
Status: offline

Martin,

Yep.

Some interesting stuff on here.

< Message edited by blw -- 7/12/2007 2:18:28 AM >

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The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

(in reply to AMB)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/12/2007 2:28:31 AM

AMB

Posts: 3948
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: winter park, FL, USA
Status: offline

BLW being most of the guys are interested in anything diesel I was on the engine conversion site (the weed wacker thing) there is a company called surplus center at
www.surpluscenter.com all kinds of stuff including diesel engines 1 cylinder and up the little 4 cy cat looks nice martin

(in reply to blw)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/12/2007 6:24:20 PM

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/12/2004
From: Barrow in Furness, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pe reivers

I have seen the experiments with very low ether. They do require a high ether prime to get the engine running and up to some temperature. There just ain't no substitute for ether. It is about the only liquid with that low a selfignition temperature, so the compression heat in a cooled down engine will ignite it.
Some makes of diesel engines even required 70% ether, 30% oil, no kero at all. The more kerosene in the fuel, the harder the life of your diesel will be, both in terms of mechanical loads caused by the high required compression ratio, and heat load. You make the choices and take the chances, depending on the use of the engine and life expectancy. If the engine has but one race to go, that choice will be different as when the engine has to serve everyday joy of flight.

Seen the experiments with low ether...... but have you tried them ?

There seems to ba a common misconception that low ether = higher compression.

Why does this "myth" persist ? Probably because the originators haven't tried making their own fuel and then testing it fairly extensively.

My findings, not based on hearsay but from actual use.....

Low ether mixes of initially 15% ether and now 10% ether content have been tested and used for a while. Engine compression is the SAME as when running 30% ether in a commercial fuel mix.

I did some tests with no ether fuel and the compression was a full 1/2 turn LESS than when running a normal 30% ether mix.

What is causing the compression setting to be no higher with low ether fuel than normal high ether content ? The magic ingredient is the IGNITION IMPROVER. This is a case of more is NOT better, too much ignition improver and you will find that the compression is being backed off further than normal and too much can also cause other problems.

The ignition improver I use is made specifically for use in diesel road vehicles and the main ingredient is 2-ethylhexyl nitrate. I use about 2.5 %, initial experiments with 5 % resulted in the compression being backed way off from normal.

Engine life adversely affected by running low ether content ? Trevan has had about 8 gallons of the stuff through his engine with no evidence of problems, a guy I have flown with was using no-ether fuels years ago and has shown me the same engine still running O.K today.

Granted.... a couple of drops of high ether fuel enable a cold start, the engine does run somewhat hotter with less ether but still within acceptable levels.... it is a heat engine after all !

A number of those reading about the experiments with low and non-ether fuels are of the opinion that they won't work because................ put your own reason here............

The only way to prove the matter is to take an old engine and TRY. That way the sceptics may get a surprise

According to theorists there is NO way that a bumble bee can fly....aerodynamically impossible !

I have edited my post so I can add........

I would not be inclined to try low ether content fuel in engines of less than 09 size. I reckon the small engines definitely need the ether content.

< Message edited by slope-soarer -- 7/12/2007 6:27:27 PM >

(in reply to pe reivers)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/25/2007 10:53:48 PM

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Joined: 1/23/2002
From: Arcen, , NETHERLANDS
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So far my own tests indicate a clear trend.
With less ether, the engine becomes increasingly harder to start, until it will not start any more. In my test engine, that is about 20% ether.
This is not about running. It is about general handling. The low ether fuels do not provide higher rpm in my test engine, so why on earth would I want to use low ether fuel? Why?
The required extra cetane booster additives make the engine run with a detonation crackle and I have to lower compression until it disappears. RPM also are lower when I do. Why would I want that compression lever juggling?
Just by defining the ether-kero mix I can make my engine run at the same compression setting for running and starting. That is what I like to have. Simplicity in operation, and only one fuel in my box.

_____________________________

Pe, Dealer for MVVS, MTW and Mejzlik; www.mvvs.nl
There is sanctuary in analisys.

(in reply to slope-soarer)

RE: DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES - 7/26/2007 7:02:59 PM

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/12/2004
From: Barrow in Furness, UNITED KINGDOM
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Hi Pe,

I have seperated out your original post and put it in brackets so I can respond to it more clearly.

(So far my own tests indicate a clear trend.
With less ether, the engine becomes increasingly harder to start, until it will not start any more. In my test engine, that is about 20% ether)

That is true, the higher ether content gives easier starting and somewhat cooler running.
However once running, apart from the engine being a bit hotter, there is no advantage to having higher ether content. The high ether content pushes up the cost of the fuel considerably.

A couple of primes with high ether fuel usually makes the engine hot enough to run on low ether. That's not such a big chore, I use a small tin of 30% ether fuel and a small eyedropper.

(This is not about running. It is about general handling. The low ether fuels do not provide higher rpm in my test engine, so why on earth would I want to use low ether fuel? Why?)

In your case you may not want to use low ether fuel, however the original object of this thread was to discuss ether content, alternative lubricants and gather information on alternative fuel mixes that people have actually used. If you don't want to run low ether and/or different lubricants then you are in the wrong series of posts !

(The required extra cetane booster additives make the engine run with a detonation crackle and I have to lower compression until it disappears. RPM also are lower when I do. Why would I want that compression lever juggling?)

Extra cetane booster ? Extra is not the way to go. Too much cetane booster and you will experience problems. One of the indicators of too much ignition improver (that's what it is - not cetane booster) is the need to back off compression much further than normal. Get it right and the engine will run at normal compression settings and you shouldn't be able to tell the difference apart from it being a bit hotter. The 2-ethylhexyl nitrate I use is a modern substitute for the older IPN and is supposed to be an improvement on those older ignition improvers.

(Just by defining the ether-kero mix I can make my engine run at the same compression setting for running and starting. That is what I like to have. Simplicity in operation, and only one fuel in my box.)

The PAW diesels I normally use require a 1/4 turn compression increase to start and then are backed off that amount when running.... that is normal PAW diesel operation on normal commercial fuel mix with 30% + ether content. My fuel mixes require exactly the same procedure so there's no difference in operation at all !

You prime your MVVS with 4 drops of fuel... obviously high ether