RE: Airplane rudder gyro  
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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros >> RE: Airplane rudder gyro
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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/21/2007 5:03:23 PM   
Big_Bird



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Jay, he really looks the part. Here is my John and the full scale John.

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Ken
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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/21/2007 5:51:50 PM   
jjmretired


 

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Ken,

Nice looking airplane. Great minds think alike.

Jay

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/21/2007 11:21:54 PM   
Flyfast1


 

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Hello,

I am currently experimenting with a Futaba 401 gyro in a 1/4 scale ME 109G (102" with a Quadra 75cc engine and am very interested in the experiences of others using this gyro in fixed wing aircraft. Before people ask, yes, I know how to use the rudder and always fly coordinated turns. But, this airplane has notoriously difficult ground handling because of the narrow landing gear which are in a V configuration. When the tail first lifts off the ground, this plane has very little rudder authority because of the small size of the vertical fin and rudder and it can turn hard to the left, especially when there is a crosswind coming from the left of the aircraft. It is extremely difficult to time exactly when to add right rudder and if it is not done immediately, the plane turns left and it is very difficult to bring it back right with rudder.

Within the last few weeks I installed a 401 gyro and a Futaba 9252 digital servo on the rudder and tail wheel. I have so far used it only in normal mode and have it coupled to a switch on my transmitter so that in one position the gyro operates in normal mode and in the other position the gyro is disabled. On the ground when I pick up the tail and move it quickly to the right, to simulate the P factor causing the plane to yaw left, the gyro briefly adds in right rudder and then the rudder returns to neutral (assuming I am not touching the rudder stick). My experience so far has been that using the gyro in normal mode has not really helped. When operating in normal mode, the gyro will only briefly move the rudder to the right in response to a left yaw. In actual flights, the right rudder correction performed by the gyro when operating in normal mode has not been enough to hold the plane on a relatively straight line and I don't think has helped me to put in right rudder myself by giving me a "head start". The right rudder added by the gyro is just not enough in normal mode. The gyro adds in right rudder very quickly, but neutralizes the rudder just as fast. I have adjusted the rudder travel on the gyro so that I am getting full rudder deflection and also increased the gain to about 80%. I have turned on the digital servo switch and set the delay to 0.

So, that brings me to where I am now, which is to try the AVCS (or heading hold) mode. I am optimistic based upon my ground experiments, but also have some reservations. I'll start by saying that I will use a switch on the transmitter to enable and disable the gyro. I think being able to disable the gyro from AVCS mode is prudent from what I've read. I believe the recommendation from Futaba is to use a switch to change between AVCS and normal modes, but to adjust the gain in the normal mode to be very low, say a few percent, so that it is effectively a disable mode. In AVCS mode when the plane is on the ground and I lift the tail and move it right (nose going left), the gyro will correct with right rudder. But, unlike the normal mode, the gyro will hold right rudder until the tail is moved left back to the starting position. As the tail is returned to the starting position, the gyro neutralizes the rudder. This seems to be the desired behavior to assist with straight line take offs. But, here is the strange part. After picking up the tail of the plane and moving it right, the gyro will move the rudder right to correct. Now add in some right rudder using the transmitter stick, to simulate a take off run. This creates some sort of an offset in the rudder and after the gyro has corrected the heading the rudder is no longer at neutral, but still has some right rudder deflection. You have to manually move the stick back to the left to take out the right rudder offset. Try it and you will see what I am talking about. I am trying to envision how this would work in actual practice. Would this mean that after rotation I will still have right rudder applied until I correct it manually? Perhaps the solution is to not use any manual rudder and let the gyro handle it? From what I can tell, the gyro is very fast and in AVCS mode will hold right rudder until the plane heading is corrected to the starting heading That sounds okay, but may be hard to do, given my natural reaction to use a lot of right rudder with warbirds. Thoughts?

-Ed B.

(in reply to jjmretired)
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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/21/2007 11:32:40 PM   
hlhamner


 

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Hi Ed,

There's just not a lot of understandable information about using gyros in aircraft out there and I haven't uses the heading hold mode on my GY401 for take off but rather for 3D hovers.

However, I suggest you let the gyro handle the rudder on takeoffs because it can correct many times faster than you or I can. If you are in HH mode on the ground move the rudder right and left 2-3 times quickly and then let it center. You will notice the gyro will center the rudder while in HH mode just like rate mode.

I'm going to try my airplane on heading hold mode for takeoff and see what happens. I don't plan on touching the rudder and, if something goes wrong, I'll just switch the gyro off. I'll let you know next week.

I suggest you try some of the Jet forums because those screamers need all the takeoff help they can get.

Hank

(in reply to Flyfast1)
       Post #: 29

RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 12:25:24 AM   
Big_Bird



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Yes Ed I have a thought WHAT? Just like the Geico caveman commercial.

That was a very clear and informative explanation of what you saw going on. This is the first time that I have read of an actual use of a 401 in AVCS for takeoff and I have done many hours of searching for just this case. I have a feeling that anytime you touch the rudder during takeoff that the return vector is modified. I did read somewhere that if you use AVCS during takeoff that you should let the gyro do all of the work. I have no feeling for whether the person saying this was commenting on personal experience.

All that I am about to say is assuming that the gyro is working correctly and not malfunctioning. You said "I'll start by saying that I will use a switch on the transmitter to enable and disable the gyro. I think being able to disable the gyro from AVCS mode is prudent from what I've read." From your previous experience with the normal mode it seems to me that it is a safe mode (even with some correction) and that by going to normal from AVCS would effectively take you out of harms way.

You said "After picking up the tail of the plane and moving it right, the gyro will move the rudder right to correct. Now add in some right rudder using the transmitter stick, to simulate a take off run. This creates some sort of an offset in the rudder and after the gyro has corrected the heading the rudder is no longer at neutral, but still has some right rudder deflection. You have to manually move the stick back to the left to take out the right rudder offset." After you have helped the plane with the rudder stick during simulated takeoff and it did not come back to the original heading with neutral rudder would the rudder go back to neutral on a different heading? If this is the case then this is where you could get into trouble by setting a new heading. Once you are aware of this fact then the best thing would be to leave the rudder alone during takeoff and keep a finger near the switch to switch it back to normal if a problem developed. Also, one would have to be very careful to not bump the rudder while moving the throttle forward.

A big thanks Ed from me for jumping in here.

< Message edited by Big_Bird -- 8/22/2007 12:28:26 AM >


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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 12:28:49 AM   
Flyfast1


 

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Hank,

I agree that there doesn't seem to be much information out there about using gyros in fixed wing aircraft.

Here is my current plan:

I will use a switch on my transmitter to control the gyro between the AVCS and normal modes. In the normal mode I will set the gain very low so that the gyro is effectively disabled.

Switch transmitter to AVCS mode and power on transmitter. Power on receiver in plane. Confirm operation and then move switch on transmitter to normal mode. Start plane and taxi to centerline of runway and line up plane. Move switch on transmitter to AVCS mode. Perhaps move rudder left and right here to center? Although it will already be centered because I taxied in normal mode. Wait a few seconds and then start take off roll. Immediately after rotation switch to normal mode.

I think this approach will work and provide the desired result, but I'd like to get a little more comfortable with how using the rudder manually on a take off roll while in AVCS mode affects things. Your suggestion to not touch the rudder and let the gyro do the work makes sense, but I need to know how it reacts in case I do also use some manual rudder.

-Ed B.

(in reply to hlhamner)
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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 12:44:05 AM   
Flyfast1


 

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Ken,

"After you have helped the plane with the rudder stick during simulated takeoff and it did not come back to the original heading with neutral rudder would the rudder go back to neutral on a different heading? If this is the case then this is where you could get into trouble by setting a new heading. Once you are aware of this fact then the best thing would be to leave the rudder alone during takeoff and keep a finger near the switch to switch it back to normal if a problem developed. Also, one would have to be very careful to not bump the rudder while moving the throttle forward."

I am going to check this again tonight when I get home from work and will post my observations. If what you said is true, then perhaps the best approach would be to not touch the rudder, or risk changing the heading during the takeoff roll. I am trying to think of this in the context of a helicopter and I think it makes sense. Disclaimer: I know very little about helicopters. Ok, now that the disclaimer is out of the way, when a gyro is used in a helicopter in AVCS mode to hold yaw, when the rudder stick is used, it has to change the heading that the gyro will hold to, otherwise one would never be able to intentionally change directions (in yaw). In other words, imagine a helicopter hovering in front of us and we are behind it looking at the tail towards the front. If one uses left rudder, the helicopter will rotate counterclockwise (I think), pushing the tail to the right. If we release the stick after the tail has moved 30 degrees to the right, then that should become the new heading that the gyro will correct to. I may have the direction backwards, but the principle should be the same. Now, if this is true, then when the AVCS mode is used on the rudder of a fixed wing aircraft, manually moving the rudder should change the heading. I will check this proposition tonight.

I think the gyro in AVCS mode has great potential for certain airplanes, such as the ME109G, but I want to be completely comfortable with the behavior before I actually use the AVCS mode.

Thanks for the contributions here.

-Ed B.

(in reply to Flyfast1)
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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 1:46:29 AM   
Big_Bird



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Ed, I understand what you are saying about the helicopter and I think all this applies to the airplane rudder. I think what is happening is this. When you help the rudder in AVCS on takeoff, the direction that the plane is pointing when you neutrailize the rudder stick becomes the new heading. During initialization and side to side tail wiggle is when the gyro memorizes neutral. I may be all wet on this theory and you should be able tell me after you check it out. I should have my 401 by Friday.

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 2:28:23 AM   
jkhorvath


 

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The GY401 gyro in AVCS mode will allow you to use the rudder during takeoff. You should use the "bump" method of stick movement rather than holding the stick off center. It will consider this stick input as the new direction to head into and will do whatever it needs to with the rudder to cause the airplane to head into that direction.

Actually, I found that AVCS mode was the most convenient gyro mode to use for any type of ground handling on fixed wing aircraft. In this manner, regardless of aircraft design or cross wind, the AVCS gyro will move the rudder in whatever direction it needs to, with an amount equal to the set gain percentage, in order to head into the current direction, or the new direction as requested by the rudder stick.

As a side note, remember that you will never want to trim the rudder after you have successfully powered up an AVCS gyro. To do so will cause the gyro to "continue to head into a new direction forever" since the new trim will be interpreted as the pilot continuously holding the stick to one side. If you need to trim the rudder, then always remember to "reboot" your electronics afterwards (always do this with the aircraft on the ground and standing still with the engine off).

< Message edited by jkhorvath -- 8/22/2007 2:29:49 AM >

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 4:11:36 AM   
Big_Bird



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Excellent information. I read somewhere not to use sub trim on the rudder channel (set it to zero). I don't see where a little sub trim (to center the rudder trim indicator on the transmitter) would have any effect on the gyro if this were all done prior to initializing the gyro.

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 1:23:00 PM   
jkhorvath


 

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As long as the adjustment is done prior to initializing the gyro, you can set sub-trim anywhere that you like.

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 8:02:20 PM   
BarracudaHockey



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You have rate mode (normal mode) and heading hold or AVCS

In rate mode a gyro will dampen the rate of any heading change on the yaw axis. So if you were hovering a helicopter in a side wind it would eventually end up weathervaned into the wind but at a managable rate.

In HH mode hovering in the same side wind the helicopter will stay put. If the wind blows harder it will apply more correction until it runs out of travel or stalls the tail blades but it will fight to stay put. (yes left stick gives counter clockwise yaw)

May people tinkering with heading hold for the first time post questions about why does the tail rotor (or rudder in y'alls case) not return to center. On the ground the helicopter isn't doing what its told so its holding it there waiting for it to act.

Now moving the discussion to planes....(keep in mind my main thing is helis but I fly gliders, warbirds, 3d, whatever)

I installed a 401 in my funtana for giggles and could floor the power from a stand still and it would scoot straight down the center line. That was in rate mode. I'd never personally use HH in a plane for anything other than torque rolling.

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 9:17:48 PM   
Big_Bird



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quote:

ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

You have rate mode (normal mode) and heading hold or AVCS

In rate mode a gyro will dampen the rate of any heading change on the yaw axis. So if you were hovering a helicopter in a side wind it would eventually end up weathervaned into the wind but at a managable rate.

In HH mode hovering in the same side wind the helicopter will stay put. If the wind blows harder it will apply more correction until it runs out of travel or stalls the tail blades but it will fight to stay put. (yes left stick gives counter clockwise yaw)

May people tinkering with heading hold for the first time post questions about why does the tail rotor (or rudder in y'alls case) not return to center. On the ground the helicopter isn't doing what its told so its holding it there waiting for it to act.

Now moving the discussion to planes....(keep in mind my main thing is helis but I fly gliders, warbirds, 3d, whatever)

I installed a 401 in my funtana for giggles and could floor the power from a stand still and it would scoot straight down the center line. That was in rate mode. I'd never personally use HH in a plane for anything other than torque rolling.

Very good comments. Like the Funtana, my Extra 300S or Giant Aeromaster or Super Decathlon can be floor boarded without the need for a gyro. There are special planes such as the Jungmeister, ME 109, DC-3, and many WWI planes that can benefit from a HH gyro.

Some of us have been hashing this around in preparation for getting our feet wet with AVCS mode on. At this point I'm trying to learn all that I can before the big event. I fully believe HH is doable in one of these special planes. I have never been in the habit of floor boarding my Jungie but once the tail is off the ground you really have to be careful before it gets airborne. Once it is airborne it is a dream to fly.

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RE: Airplane rudder gyro - 8/22/2007 9:36:44 PM