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Nitro Planes Bobcat - 7/6/2007 4:15:21 AM   
R/CPULLER


 

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I am writing this in hope someone has an answer. I have a Nitro model Bobcat which is electrified. A friend had one with glow and it went in. It went the entire length of our field and went straight vertical and was uncontrollable. Has anyone experienced this and do you have an answer to the cause? We feel the problem might be the CG but can't get a definite answer from Nitro. No one there seems to have any technical answers. The mains were too far back and they were moved forward closer to the approximate CG. Also the horizontal stab was changed out to a flat stab since an aeronautical engineer in our club felt a lifting stab would keep the nose from rotation.
I was told by John of Nitro that a user of username OPJOSE is an expert on this plane. Hopefully I will get a response from same. E-mail me at jyalove@verizon.net

Thank you RCPULLER
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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 7/6/2007 4:45:59 PM   
opjose



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I e-mailed you are replied to you in the other thread as well...

----

It sounds like you had the Nitro Models Bobcat .50. Is that correct? Did you get the one that is retract ready?

As posted here, the C.G. should be set to approximately 10.3"-10.5" from the leading edge of the wing at the wing root.

The plane will fly with the gear as it comes, but it is important to make sure that the attitude of the plane at rest on the ground has a positive incidence relative to the ground. If you don't do this the plane will not lift off the runway at run-up.

There was no need to change out the stab as you've done. Many here have flown it as is.

----

As everyone in the other thread has suggested, it sounds like you may have set the CG wrong initially which caused the problem.

---


Everyone there seems to be having a lot of good luck with this plane going as far as installing turbines ( !!! ) in it.





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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 8/29/2007 7:10:00 PM   
Gary G


 

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OPJOSE, I have a question please. I'm up in Alaska, my dad's in TN and doesn't have a PC, so I'm asking this for him. He's got a Bobcat Jet 50 (like you've been discussing), and it won't lift. Here's the scoop: He's got a K&B 61 engine, and has tried 11x8, 12x6, and 13x6 props. He's got a big wheel up front (fixed gear) to have a positive incidence relative to the ground. The CG is correct based on your advice to the other gentleman's posting. He's got a 560 foot runway and when attempting to take off (yes- into the wind) it doesn't lift. It does make a really nice nitro r/c car. My dad's been building planes of one sort or another for over 50 years so he's hasn't made some novice error (like I make : ). Thank you, Gary gone2dog@mtaonline.net

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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 8/29/2007 7:52:16 PM   
opjose



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There has to be something keeping the nose down, forcing it not to lift.

Did you retain the engine's slight up pitch when you installed it?

Could the aileron's not be centered, but are actually slightly deflected down, causing inverse reflex. This would also cause the plane not to lift. Try making the aileron centering such that there is a degree of upward incidence of the ailerons at stick center.

Are you sure the wing has 2-3 degrees of positive incidence.

A "big wheel" may not do the trick if the plane pushes the nose down at runup. Particularlly with soft wheels.

You maybe loosing all positive incidence as the plane runs up to speed.



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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 8/30/2007 5:12:53 AM   
alburman


 

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I also lost one that was uncontrollable immediately after take off. My mistake was that I forgot a basic rule of balancing. If the fuel tank is in front of the CG, balance with the tank empty. If the fuel tank is behind the CG as on the Bobcat, balance with the tank full. I CG'ed with an empty tank. When I fueled it, I had put about eleven ounces behind the CG making it extremely tail heavy. You know the rule, a nose heavy plane fly's poorly but a tail heavy plane flys only once.
Al Burman

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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/7/2007 10:59:05 PM   
opjose



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There are a few areas that you have to be careful about with this plane, especially if you have not flown a Bobcat type plane before...


- When setting the neutral point of the elevator control surface, align the trailing edge of the elevator with the back TOP edge of the stabilizer.

Initially I did what I would do in any normal plane. I used a straight edge along the bottom ( flat part ) of the stab, and aligned the elevator to this, assuming that this was the ideal "neutral"... boy was I wrong!

The plane would NOT lift until it was far down our paved field, then it JUMPED into the air almost straight up.

After landing the plane one of our resident "jet guys" looked it over and pointed out that I had it "forcing the nose DOWN"...

He was right... I popped out the control horns and moved them over one tick on the servo, so that the trailing edge was level with the back of the upper part of the stab...

Now the plane flew perfectly.


- You can set your radio up with FLAPERON's to help in landings... e.g. right aileron on channel 2 and left aileron on channel 6, and use the radio mixing for flaperons.

If you do this, unlike conventional planes, you want the both ailerons to come - UP - 1/4" or so when you hit the flap switch.

This will cause the plane to balloon up in flight a bit, but it will land with a beautiful nose high attitude.


- DO NOT break in a new engine on this plane! Because it is a pusher prop plane, the engine will tend to overheat on the ground.

Get your engine broken in and tuned up elsewhere, then move it to the Bobcat when it is ready.

I used a GMS .76 Ringed engine with an APC 11x7P pusher prop. This turns out to be a very nice combination. Some people are also using Graupner 11x8P props with success.


- If you purchased the retract ready version, first attempt to loosen the mounting blocks from the underlying wood support, using a screwdriver. On one wheel one was not properly glued.

I would recommend popping them up ( or off ) if possible and liberally applying epoxy to the whole area.

If they are somewhat secure, expoxy all the exposed wood areas around the gear mounts. You'll be glad you did.

Also see if you can insert a block of wood on both sides of the gear mounts, under the existing wood. Epoxy this in place.

Choose screws that will go through the existing mounts into this new piece of wood for a very secure and sturdy gear mount.


- I set up my front stearable gear using a Pull-Pull system. This worked great but I initially had problems with the wire tangling when the gear was retracted.

I solved this by letting the wire run UNDER a small metal bar that I placed at the point on the wheel well where the circular area of the wheel meets the longer area of the strut... ( pictures later ).

This prevents the wire from looping around the gear or kinking.

The pull-pull wire is strung THROUGH the plastic wheel well using a bit of tubing at the junctures.


( Edit: I was STILL not happy with the results... see subsequent posts for a much better solution! )



- I left about one degree of "reflex" ( postive or "up" aileron movement )when the ailerons are neutral.

This helped keep the nose from dropping, for hands free flight. If you use Flaperons, try it.


- As per another suggestion here, I ran my exhaust THROUGH the wing so it comes out under the plane by using a Dubro Silicon Exhaust Extender.

A great idea, now the plane stays clean.

I used grommet washer's I had on hand to strengthen the two holes I made for this... I also wicked CA onto the underlying Balsa after cutting the holes to both hold the covering and strengthen the area.



< Message edited by opjose -- 9/12/2007 8:48:50 PM >


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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/9/2007 2:54:11 PM   
Nitrodan73


 

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I purchased mine without the retract option. Does it come with retracts if I went with the option? I went with the non retract option because my CMP P40's retracts were junk so I didn't want to mess with retracts again for a while. But if anyone has any easy success stories, I might change my order. Pics would help!

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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/9/2007 6:16:11 PM   
opjose



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I think you misunderstood the web site.

There are two versions of the Bobcat in the .52 and 1.20 size Falcon.

One which is retract-ready, the other which is not.

The "retract-ready" is configured to accept second party retracts, such as the Robart retracts.

The plane does NOT come with pre-installed retracts.


The non-retract version would require extensive modification to retro-fit retracts.

I've posted pictures of the retract openings on other threads.



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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/11/2007 12:52:40 AM   
Nitrodan73


 

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Yeah I figured for an extra $5.00 it wouldn't come with retracts. If I am happy with the plane then I will order another and get the retract option on it. This is a cool airplne for the price! I am actually thinking about trying the next one with a EDF unit. That will be my first shot at electric. I will watch this forum for anyone who does a good job with an EDF.

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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/11/2007 4:24:20 AM   
opjose



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The plane flies great, but you would be advised to allow a longer than normal runway length especially for your first flights.

DO re-inforce and epoxy the main gear area as much as possible. Especially at the beginning, this area takes a lot of of abuse... you WILL bounce the plane on your first flights which is not good for it.

It lands hot... see above... for the flaps suggestion...


IMHO it is very different than a standard tail dragger.

Your first flights should be spent trying to get it back down safely and practising for landings.



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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/12/2007 7:58:43 PM   
Nitrodan73


 

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OPJose,

Thanks for the advice! I just got my plane in today and I didn't think the place where the front gear goes into is right. I have attched photos below to see what you guys think. It looks like the mounting blocks angle and the fiberglass on the front of the mounting blocks isn't really glued to anything. If the pics are blurry, i will try to take cleaer ones. See what you think. By the way, I ordered the plane with standard gear but got the one for retracts so now I'm tempted to get some spring airs.



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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/12/2007 8:04:51 PM   
Nitrodan73


 

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Looking at it now, It doesn't look so bad.

Opjose, What gear did you use for this? I don't know if I saw you post spring air 300 series or if that was someone else.

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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/12/2007 8:34:52 PM   
opjose



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It looks just like mine...

I used Robart retracts all around and these work fine.

The only problem I've had is with the steering linkage.

I WAS using a PULL-PULL system, and I did not like the results... I had two instances where the front gear failed to lock because of tension on the Pull-Pull lines ( they may have gotten caught up... ).

The nose gear then collapsed or rather retracted on landing causing a nose "rash".

BTW: I'd advise putting a bit of metal on the nose underside... I just did this to mine to prevent future scrapes.


I just saw an EASY way to do the linkages for the nose gear...

One of those "duh I should have thought of that" moments...



Basically put a metal "rod" perpendicular to the steering "T" that Robart ( or others ) provides.

( You can see it in the left most gear in the above picture... )

On this put a linkage that will slide up and down the rod, the cap the rod by any means so that the linkage will not come off.

You can then attach a stiffer single flexi pushrod to this.

When the gear retracts the linkage will slide on the rod thereby taking up the slack on the line.

When the gear goes down, the tension pulls the sliding linkage back into place.



< Message edited by opjose -- 9/12/2007 8:42:15 PM >


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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/12/2007 10:59:07 PM   
Nitrodan73


 

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How does a steerable front tire retract when it has a metal wire that is used to push and pull the steering "T"? I kind of see what youre talking about but I need a better picture. Do you have a photo of your setup? I will probably use air retracts because I have had nothing but bad luck with my mechanicals. $190.00 for spring airs air kit and everything.

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RE: Nitro Planes Bobcat - 9/12/2007 11:07:18 PM   
opjose



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In the "long" Bobcat thread, you'll see pictures where people have used guy wires for the stock Pull-Pull stearing for the "T".

This works but my wires inevitably get caught up... so I was looking for a better solution.

I'll try to make a diagram and post it.



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