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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 3/8/2003 7:46:26 AM   
Super Hot


 

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What is your Propeller Thrust and Wing Loading Calculator ?
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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 3/10/2003 10:05:15 PM   
GarySS


 

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Are you referring to the computer based Thrust Calculator program downloaded from: http://www.bmaps.net/ ?

Go to "Goodies". While an interesting program and fun to use it is overly optimistic when you get into larger prop sizes.

(in reply to Super Hot)
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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 3/21/2003 2:25:50 AM   
Cheech



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Get "ThrustHP" off the rcfaq website.

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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 3/27/2003 4:07:27 PM   
Jemo



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From: in, FL, USA
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The above calculators are the same..get it from either place

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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 3/31/2003 10:39:13 AM   
seanychen



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I find that Thrust HP's calculated static thrust is, like said above, "overly optimistic", even on small props. On a plane-engine setup that Thrust HP says I will have 1.5 thrust-to-weight ratio, I can barely hover at full throttle. I feel that ThrustHP's static thrust calculation is too high by 30~40%

_____________________________

E_Total = M*G*H + 1/2 M*V^2
When H=0, all of airplane's velocity becomes crash energy!

(in reply to Super Hot)
       Post #: 5

Also, - 4/1/2003 4:26:39 AM   
xlr82v2



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Joined: 9/21/2002
From: Ellis Grove, IL, USA
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ThrustHP does not use prop pitch as a factor in it's calculation... only diameter.

I guarantee that a 12x6 turning 10K is going to put out more static thrust than a 12x4 turning 10K rpm.

It's a nice toy, but I don't know how much I'd trust it to be accurate.


_____________________________

Brian

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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/3/2003 2:54:40 PM   
Blazer12003


 

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You know, I think ThrustHP is a good program. Remember, static thrust is different from thrust while the prop is "unloaded" in the air. The thing to note is how much horse power is required to turn a given prop at a selected RPM. I have a Magnum .91 4-stroke in a Super Kraft Cap 232 Sport, and I've tried a variety of props. A 12x8 Scimitar will turn at 10,000 RPM and require 1.2 horse, and give me 6.2 pounds of thrust. The model weighs in at 6.5 pounds It won't pull it strait up but close. A 13x8 shows 8.5 pounds at the same RPM. It will pull it strait up, but not too fast. My point is, it's a good place to start when trying to find a prop for you engine.

Remember to see what your engine is rated at power wise, and note the power requirements to turn a given prop to a selected RPM. Then ask yourself if the engine can pull that many RPM.

< Message edited by Blazer12003 -- Apr 3 2003 9:59AM >

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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/3/2003 10:37:05 PM   
PaulF


 

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ThrustHP is nice, but does me no good at the field. I made a small spreadsheet which I uploaded to my Palm Pilot so I can get insight into different props at the field.

You can play with Excel's Solver if you like to see what RPM you should be at for a given RPM; in it's current layout, you can see if you are under-propped based upon the horsepower of the engine and the prop used. You can also check pitch speed as well as total Watts used.

http://www.flindt.us/planes/prop_performance.xls

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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/8/2003 5:58:35 AM   
PatternFlyer



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Ok, I just downloaded the Excel file and checked out.
14x8 & 14x10 at 9700 rpm
showed same thrust values.
Thrust formula does not include the value of pitch, why is that?

Running a YS 91AC with 14x10 @ 9700 rpm has no difference from running a 91FX with 14x8 @ 9700 rpm?

< Message edited by PatternFlyer -- Apr 8 2003 1:05AM >



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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/8/2003 6:08:25 AM   
seanychen



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The thrust calculation has a CL coefficient of lift. Propeller pitch has an effect on this CL term, as well as airfoil shape, and chord width. None of these factors exhibit a linear relationship with the coefficient of lift, that's why basic calculation such as ThrustHP doesn't bother including them. To obtain an accurate relationship between coefficient of lift and airfoil, chord width, and pitch, experimental analysis needs to be conducted to form an elaborate database. Only then can we better "approximate" the thrust result of a given prop & rpm.

_____________________________

E_Total = M*G*H + 1/2 M*V^2
When H=0, all of airplane's velocity becomes crash energy!

(in reply to Super Hot)
       Post #: 10

Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/8/2003 6:53:21 PM   
PaulF


 

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[QUOTE]Running a YS 91AC with 14x10 @ 9700 rpm has no difference from running a 91FX with 14x8 @ 9700 rpm?[/QUOTE]

I used the same formulas as Thrust HP for Thrust, and it only considers diameter and RPM:
Thrust = 2.83E-12 x RPM^2 x D^4

MotoCalc seems to do a good job at approximating thrust values...180 oz of thrust and 194, respectively for the two props mentioned at 9700. I'll have to explore how it is done there and once I come to an answer, update the spreadsheet.

That said, your change in pitch did have a big change in pitch speed, from 73 mph with the 14X8 to 91 mph with the 14X10; a 25% increase.

(in reply to Super Hot)
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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/8/2003 7:30:23 PM   
JimTrainor


 

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ThrustHP's help file documents the forumulas it uses, their source, and comments on pitch.

The following (to end of this post) is cut and paste from ThrustHP's help file.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Static Thrust Information

Formulas from AMA mag Oct 86

Load = Prop Diameter^4 * Pitch

Speed = Pitch * rpm * 0.000947

Horse Power = Load * rpm^3 / 1.4 * 10^17

Static Thrust = 0.00000000000283 * rpm^2 * Prop Diameter^4 * Air Density/29.92 * CF value


Note:

Regarding thrust to pitch variables, PRACTICAL test revealed very little if any change in thrust due to pitch variation at the same RPM. This I think is partly due to any increase in thrust being negated by blade stalling and a more turbulent influx area with increased pitch. This obviously only applies to static conditions, it's a whole new ball game under dynamic i.e. flying variables. The program is not designed to calculate thrust under dynamic conditions so it may not be of use for Ducted Fans.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Propeller Thrust Calculator - 4/14/2003 9:42:15 AM   
seanychen



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Remember, a propeller has a non-constant angle-of-attack of the airfoil section when you go from root to tip. I was searching on the web for lift vs AOA experimental data, and someone found that 5 degrees to 25 degrees gives the optimal lift-over-drag ratio for a typical airfoil. So while increasing propeller pitch can increase lift toward the tip, the section toward the root will approach stall and generate very little lift; hence the lift generated by the entire prop is not too much different.

After a little calculation, I estimated that if diameter is 3~4 times the pitch, then most of the prop section will be in the optimal lift range. So props like 12.25x3.75, 16x4, 18x6, 24x8, 30x10 fall in that range.

Also remember that stall angle is dependent on velocity. A high pitch root prop section may stall at 6000 rpm, but at 10000 rpm it may be lifting.

All in all, it's not possible yet to precisely predict static thrust of a given prop via calculation, because there are too many unknow variables. The best method with today's technology is through experimental data and provide some sort of correlation plot for other users.

_____________________________

E_Total = M*G*H + 1/2 M*V^2
When H=0, all of airplane's velocity becomes crash energy!

(in reply to Super Hot)
       Post #: 13

Thrust Calculator - 4/14/2003 9:56:45 AM   
fatflyer41



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Seanychen,

I see you are estimating that ThrustHP is 30% or so on the optomistic side.

It seems a lot of people think the program is very optomistic. Do any of you experienced engine gurus and ThrustHP users have a different estimate of how optomistic? Anybody ever test specific static thrust with a scale and compare it with ThrustHP?


_____________________________

Keith

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Re: Thrust Calculator - 4/14/2003 4:10:31 PM   
seanychen



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by fatflyer41
Seanychen,

I see you are estimating that ThrustHP is 30% or so on the optomistic side.

It seems a lot of people think the program is very optomistic. Do any of you experienced engine gurus and ThrustHP users have a different estimate of how optomistic? Anybody ever test specific static thrust with a scale and compare it with ThrustHP?
[/QUOTE]

The reason why I said it's about 30% over optimistic is from real-life correlation. I had a 6 lb GP Extra 40 ARF w/ Saito 72 turning 13x4W @ 11000, and it will hover at near full throttle. ThrustHP says I should have 10.37 lb static thrust, which is 1.7 thrust-to-weight ratio. But it feels like I have a 1.2 thrust-to-weight ratio.

Another example. My 7.5 lb UCD w/ Saito 100 swinging 15x4W @ 10300 rpm, according to ThrustHP has 2.1+ thrust-to-weight ratio. It flies like 1.5 thrust-to-weight, because its vertical acceleration looks like 0.5G, w/ drag accounted for.

Aerosplat did some experimental analysis, using Saito 100 swinging 15x4W @ 10300 rpm, pull like 11.5 lb. of vertical tow weight.

_____________________________

E_Total = M*G*H + 1/2 M*V^2
When H=0, all of airplane's velocity becomes crash energy!

(in reply to Super Hot)
       Post #: 15

Real vs. T-HP - 4/17/2003 7:27:48 AM   
Aerosplat



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Check any of my posts where I have stated static thrust measurements for my engine / prop combinations. All of these figures I have accurately measured with my test setup. My results have proven to be repeatable, and also correlate with what I experience in the air. They all have shown Thrust HP to be optimistic. The degree varies, but seem to get worse as pitch goes down and diameter goes up.
Here are a few examples:

Mejzlik 20x6 @ 8800 RPM - Measures 20 lbs, 4 oz thrust. THP says 37.17 (used APC airfoil)

Zinger 20x6 @ 8300 - Measures 19 lbs, 14 oz. THP says 31.19.

APC 17x6 @ 9400 - Measures 17 lbs, 12 oz. THP says 22.14.

APC 13x4W @ 11,800 - Measures 8 lbs, 12 oz. TP says 11.93.

You get the picture

_____________________________

---- Robert ----
"If you put a big enough engine on it, even a brick will fly. But it will never 3-D"

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Thank You Aerosplat! - 4/17/2003 8:14:23 AM   
fatflyer41



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From: Douglasville, GA, USA
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Thanks for compiling the figures from some of your tests. It seems like ThrustHP is off, in some cases, more than I expected. I guess I'll have to build my own little thrust stand so I can accurately compare brands as well as diameter & pitch.


_____________________________

Keith

(in reply to Super Hot)