Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use?

Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use?
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Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/13/2007 2:01:26 PM

CustomPC

Posts: 280
Joined: 4/19/2004
From: SydneyNSW, AUSTRALIA
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Hi,

Is the new crop of Low Viscosity Synthetics suitable for use in aeroplane motors?

I'm talking about the CoolPower Red and Klotz Heli Glow (KL198)

They are pretty popular with heli fliers with high nitro contents and 22-23% oil content.

I'm wondering how suitable they are for use in ABC and ABN 2-strokes as well as AAC Saito 4-strokes

If they're suitable, how much oil? And would you also use some castor?

Post #: 1

RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/13/2007 4:00:34 PM

downunder

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From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
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I'd guess they're quite OK but the only synthetic I've ever been game enough to try was Mobil Jet Oil II. If you want to try different oil percents then I'd start with something like 22% or whatever then slowly come down lower but check the head temps each time. There'll be a range where head temps won't vary much then start to rise. Go for the middle of the steady range. I'd still use some castor though (Castrol M).

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RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/15/2007 5:26:00 PM

Jezmo

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From: Spring, TX, USA
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When playing with oil percentages and types the only problems I have encountered are rod to crankpin issues. When the oil percentage gets too low, in airplanes, the crankpin and rod bushing start to gall. Metal transfers from the aluminum rods that are not bushed easier than bronze bushed ones or at least that seems how it works for me. I have gotten away with as low as 14 percent oil but if I go much lower than that the crank pin starts showing signs of distress from heat. You can start seeing it picking up coloring similar to the color of the bushing. If you don't polish it back off before continuing to run the engine it will eventually fail. With a hardened pin and roller bearings pressed in a new custom rod I have went as low as 3 percent on the oil. I should mention that this can only be done on ring motors as an ABC motor with it's tight pinch at the top of the cylinder will start the suffering process about as soon as the rod bushing maybe sooner. (This is why downunder recommended keeping an eye on the head temps) If you want to experiment with oil and percentages just be prepared to keep a close eye on the high friction points (after every couple of minutes runtime) and adjust accordingly. Yes I also always keep some Castor on my blend. Also be prepared to lose some engines as research and development comes at a price.

< Message edited by Jezmo -- 7/15/2007 5:28:35 PM >

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RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/15/2007 8:40:14 PM

merugo

Posts: 276
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From: rome, ITALY
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JEZMO,
interesting experience. I am following oil issue with interest, since it appears that engines respond to lubrification in very different ways, depending from type and use. What types of engines did you use?
I guess that you intend hardened pin for piston pin and roller for crankpin, right? What was the inner/outside diameter of the roller you used?
Thanks, Ugo

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Post #: 4

RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/16/2007 6:15:23 AM

XJet

Posts: 2995
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Tokoroa, NEW ZEALAND
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jezmo
When playing with oil percentages and types the only problems I have encountered are rod to crankpin issues. When the oil percentage gets too low, in airplanes, the crankpin and rod bushing start to gall. Metal transfers from the aluminum rods that are not bushed easier than bronze bushed ones or at least that seems how it works for me. I have gotten away with as low as 14 percent oil but if I go much lower than that the crank pin starts showing signs of distress from heat. You can start seeing it picking up coloring similar to the color of the bushing. If you don't polish it back off before continuing to run the engine it will eventually fail.

Almost our entire club has been running 12% oil for over six months and had *ZERO* problems with premature engine wear.

The engines I've stripped down (solely out of curiosity) after running on this low-oil fuel have been good as new with no sign of distress to the big-end or gudgeoun (wrist) pin journals.

But we don't use Morgan's Coolpower oil or Klotz, I don't think I'd dare run less than 18% of those oils :-)

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RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/16/2007 1:45:52 PM

wjvail

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From: Meridian, MS, USA
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quote:

But we don't use Morgan's Coolpower oil or Klotz, I don't think I'd dare run less than 18% of those oils :-)

I have been mixing 12 to 14% oil for myself and friends for decades. Most of it using Klotz. I've tried MANY types of oil and find Klotz truly superior.

As for use of LV oils in airplane motors, I'm not sure the heli community is convinced they like it. I think some of the motivation for LV oils in heli's was started by a quest for low smoke fuels. I'm not sure this was ever a great goal but the LV oils do help. This is even less of a goal in airplanes. Once the heli folks started using LV oils I think some noticed a more responsive engine while others noted sooner bearing failure. All of it is tangled up in myth, sales and product rep ties.

While I've tried LV oils I just don't feel good about how thin it is. Going form 50wt oil to 10wt is quite a step. I took me many years and several engines to end up at the oil mixtures I run. I've run as little as 6% and as much as 35% oil in a standard 46 2-stroke.. I would have to do considerable testing to convince myself that I could run 12%LV oil. On the other hand, if it turns out I need to run 23% LV oil for safe running (the recommended amount), have I gained anything?

Bill Vail
www.RCScreenProtectors.com

< Message edited by wjvail -- 7/16/2007 3:18:45 PM >

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RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/16/2007 2:45:43 PM

RaceCity

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From: NotUpNorth, USA
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I'm pretty confident I know what oil X-Jet is running. If it's what I think it is....it's not a LV oil (and he doesn't say it is). I've been using the same thing now for a while. I have no way of measuring the actual viscosity of the oil, but subjectively it's about the same as castor. Pretty heavy. My only gripe about this oil is poor smoke. Probably a good indication that it's not burning up in the engine too. That's a positive!

The stuff is awesome from what I can tell, even in lower-than-normal concentrations. It just doesn't give up, and I'm a die-hard synthetic hater from way back. I do however like to run a small percentage of Klotz KL200 in my high castor (FOX) fuel just because it makes a convenient dye, and I absolutely love the smell of the stuff. Mmmmmmmm

With all that being said,

Another poster commented that the use of LV oils (or any other oil for that matter) is clouded in BS, mock-science, and more than a smattering of marketing hype. Very true. Unless one is a chemist....at the end of the day you'd be just as well off to ask a nun at the corner church for an oil recommendation, so confused you'll be.

LV oils to me seem like just another gimmick. Maybe they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I sure haven't seen it. The fuels with the LV oils obviously work...at least for awhile. I suppose if you run enough of anything it'll work.

A good oil (for real), that is appropriate for the type motor being run (ABC/ABX, ringed, lapped, bushed) will always win the day...even after the magazine ads, and trophy waving mug shots of "Joe Pro" are long forgotten.

< Message edited by RaceCity -- 7/16/2007 4:05:17 PM >

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RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/17/2007 2:17:32 PM

CustomPC

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Joined: 4/19/2004
From: SydneyNSW, AUSTRALIA
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Thanks Bill and RaceCity,

I've pretty much came to the same conclusions regarding LV oils in helis. I tried them but i'm just not satisfied that they protect the motors adequately. There's a wealth of posts on another heli orientated forum regarding premature bearing failure in .50 helis and most of these seem to running LV oil and high nitro. I am sufficiently concerned that i've started mixing the blue coolpower 50/50 with my remaining stocks of red for a Multi Viscosity purple mix, but i won't be buying any more red once i've used it all up. In fact, i'll probably make the switch to Klotz or Coopers (if i can get it over here).

There's a local oil manufacturer here in Australia (Penrite) who make a 20W-40 Ester based Synthetic / castor blend oil suitable for use with methanol. As best i can find out, those that have used it report good results, and i'm trying to find someone who stocks it, Most motor shops can order it in but they are forced to order it in carton lots so it's too troublesome to get right now.

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Post #: 8

RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/17/2007 4:56:52 PM

wjvail

Posts: 298
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From: Meridian, MS, USA
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quote:

I'm pretty confident I know what oil X-Jet is running..... I've been using the same thing now for a while. I have no way of measuring the actual viscosity of the oil....... It just doesn't give up....

I'm always looking for a better product... Can you share? Is there a US supplier? I've heard good things about the EDL oils but I don't know of an easy US source.

Bill Vail
www.RCScreenProtectors.com

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Post #: 9

RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/17/2007 6:39:04 PM

Jezmo

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From: Spring, TX, USA
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X-Jet

It has been awhile since I tried lower oil percentages and I have also changed the way I run my engines. I once had to have a tuned pipe and be turning 19000+ ground rpm's on a 45 size engine to be happy. It was those configurations that tended to work the crankpin some on low oil mixtures. I don't run the engines near that hard any more, in fact I usually leave the stock muffler on them and just fly and enjoy. I still love to experiment, I am just not quiet so hard on the motors. I could probably get by with 12 percent or less these days using Coopers or equivalent. Just been experimenting a different direction for a while. (Like converting to gasoline; I want to do a ST 90 next to go with my Saito 91. I know they don't make quiet as much power but they run sooo loooong on a tank of gas) Anyway, it's nice to see that others like to experiment and try different thiings.

As far as low vis oils in Helis, I have run CoolPower 30 percent in my Hyper 50 since new with the exception of probably 2 or three gallons of Byron's. It has 14 gallons through it now and two weeks ago the Raptor had an argument with the ground. (The ground won) When the engine was out during repairs, I checked the bearings etc. There is no discernable wear in the engine and the bearings are smooth as silk. (Stock OS bearings) I am convinced the Hyper bearing problem has something going on besides oil or bearing type because I have watched guys running high vis oils AND ceramic bearings have problems within 3 gals of a bearing change. I have never had a bearing problem on my heli so it is hard for me to even guess what the problem is. Most heli fuels are up around 22 percent oil so I don't think lack of oil is it. One person that I fly with thinks the balls may be skiding on top of the oil and when the engine fires it drives the non spinning ball into the race causing a nick or scratch which just gets worse in time. I told him that sounds as good as any other theory out there.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling post and everyone have a great day.

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RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/17/2007 9:37:13 PM

merugo

Posts: 276
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From: rome, ITALY
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I see many experiences, but little criticism.
Did anyone note that the perfect Klotz gives THREE entirely different viscosities for the SAME LV heli oil at the SAME temperature?
Look at Tech sheet and Msds in their site www.klotzlube.com and you will find of a true miracle since the very same oil they say has SAE5 is by their data data once SAE20, then SAE10 at 100°F!
How to rely on it?
Ugo

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Post #: 11

RE: Low Viscosity Synthetic Oils suitable for Plane use? - 7/21/2007 6:31:42 AM

RaceCity

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From: NotUpNorth, USA
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The "mystery oil" is from Cooper Fuels. I am convinced that Coopers is using perhaps the most advanced oil package available in ANY fuel available in the U.S. Period.

Not just a re-hashed, viscosity tweaked, 50 yr old mold-release agent recipe, but a real state-of-the-art lube package that won't take a dump on you.

Ask Brian. www.cooperfuels.com.

It's the good stuff.

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Post #: 12

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