TheHobbyGuy

Hi all,
If you bought a Park Flyer and it included a free trial membership for the AMA and/or the IFPA (International Park Flyer Association), would you take advantage of the free trial?

THIS IS ONLY A THOUGHT I HAVE - THE AMA IS NOT PROPOSING THIS, but the IFPA would like to know if this is of interest to park pilots. So if you consider yourself a Park Pilot or Park Flyer (even if you are an AMA member already) let me know.

Some benefits that such a trial could have

- Full member benefits for the duration of the trial (aka insurance)
- Receive one magazine issue for the period.
- Weekly e-newsletter - "Getting Started in RC Flying" or something like that
- Access to an online library of how-to and FAQ
- Online community access for help
- Help locating other Park Pilots in your area - where to fly
- Discounts to retailers of parts for your park flyer model.

What other benefits could be interesting? input is welcome.

guver

My Feedback: (325)

I will someday get a park flyer and I would use all those benefits you list. I have no air rc's as of yet (only a lot of surface vehicles)

Even 30 days would be a plus.

scoooper

NO .

Bad_Daddy

I think it would be a great benefit for a new flier to get a free, limited time membership. If nothing else, it would get in their hands the AMA rules, and get them thinking about public safety.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Never heard of IPFA, why don't they offer a membership to their organization?

Mr. Mugen

I haven't either.......where do I get info on this?

TheHobbyGuy

Hi! Good question - we are just forming up the IFPA. A bunch of us felt it was time to have a voice for all of us Park Pilots and those who have an interest in Park Flyers. We would welcome your input. Here are the threads:

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6064430/tm.htm]IFPA - Original Thread[/link]

[link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=115400]IFPA - Ongoing Discussion[/link]

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Hobby Guy,
Good idea, a 90 day would be quite effective in getting the word out about the AMA.
Would take some work though, specifically getting the newbies to sign up. As I'm pretty sure they would have to, to get coverage to take effect. Also you may need to look at limited insurance in the beginning, the insurance liability end could be a bear to get. Even though with the AMA doing the insurance, I can't fathom them letting us use their insurance coverage willy nilly. Granted anyone can join the AMA, reguardless of flight skills, but I would think, there would have to be some sort of training needed to keep the liability costs down. That's where the clubs would/ should come in. Maybe tie the program to accepting clubs. You join the temp membership to get your feet wet and see what it's all about. The club is notified of new member in their area, and makes it a point to have them come out and see how it's done. Once a month thing to gather the newbies together. Both sides could then make an informed decision. The newbie could decide if it is in fact something he wants to do, and the clubs so to say can have the pick of the litter, for new members.
You could even go as far as having the club terminate the membership if the newbie decides it's not for them, or if they see a potential problem pilot. That way at least someone is doing something to keep the camps together and on the same page.

Granted, there would always be some teething problems, but we need to get both sides of the sport to the table. Have the "old guard" show the newbies what this hobby can be. Good and bad.

Love the idea though of getting the word out, it's a lot more then those little ads in the back of flying mags are doing.

Us getting our own voice in the AMA will definetely be the shove in the right direction for the AMA to help get the electric side of the hobby involved in a greater portion.

critterhunter

I was just wondering when this was going to happen. I'll keep my personal and admittedly very generalized views of the AMA, clubs, and members private. Not to mention some of the views on electric aircraft in general. Glazing over all that, I long thought things were going to have to change to keep up with the times if their role was kept at current levels. I would guess this is the first attempt at this.

My concern is with what might happen should the AMA choose to exercise it's political power in this arena. We already know how average joe park flyer is banned from flying with certain equipment (even if he is an AMA member) or at certain places (not necessarily AMA "owned" places...think "indoors" for one) unless he is an AMA member. Maybe my fears are totally unjustified but I can't help but wonder if government bodies start to get the idea that public park flying shouldn't be allowed unless he coughs up some cash and the all mighty seal of approval has been stamped on the behind. Will average guy wanting to go to a public park and fly suddenly find new laws or even signs that say "AMA" only? Would somebody care to address my fears, valid or not, in this area?

TheHobbyGuy

Actually, I think your fears have some validity. Thus the need for a Park Flyer voice. I think from the general public view - many do not even consider AMA vs non AMA - only those who fly and those who don't. And many communities have stopped AMA and non-AMA flying all together. I live in a town where the AMA club was disbanded many years ago.

Interesting enough - I can fly a park flyer in the park and no one bothers me. I have had the cops and the park rangers both watch me and tell me the stories of the little old lady who complained for years about the former AMA club. Now the funny part is both the cops and the rangers wish the club was here as they felt it was a good use of the park. What is even funnier (or sad) is that the cops tell me she still complains that planes are buzzing her house - obviously the township listened too much to someone who is not all there. SAD!

From an AMA standpoint - some people do have "something against park flyers" and I hope to help make that the exception - not the rule. I am an AMA member, and my fellow club members (MMAC) look at Park Flyers as just another part of the hobby - and many of them show up with 2,3,4+ park flyer models at the field. And these are guys who also fly 1/4 scale and larger and have been flying for years.

From a national standpoint we already have politicians calling for a regulatory action against model airplanes - Senator Chuck from NY - UGGH! So hopefully through organization and support of the AMA (which the FAA recognizes as the leading body for Model Aircraft) we can make Chuck and other realizes, WE FLY, WE VOTE! I bet more people are hurt by golf than our hobby! Millions of Park Flyers have been sold, and there are estimates that there are from 500,00 to 2+ million people interested in the hobby of Park Flying - so with that hopefully enough people will rally to protect our hobby and our enjoyment. Glad to have your input and keep the comments coming.

Oh - from a timing - I hope to have the IFPA up and organized by the next Toldeo show (spring 2008).

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Hey Lord Hunter,
Time to join if you are not a member and help us make the change. I've been there and done that with clubs, my so called toys, and not acceptable radio equipment. We all pretty much started out that way. He ll even the nose bent out of joint clubbers didn't start out in thousand dollar aircraft and 14 channel tx's. That's something they have forgotten. They were the newbies at one time too. Maybe it's time to remind them of that. How did they get into the hobby. I kinda doubt they got snubbed by the rubber band powered flyers, and formed their own clubs.

Just like the Dark Side, and the Badius Boys, we are there to help the newbies, and often learn from them. The clubs and AMA would be in much better shape if they had taken the same creed as we did.

I remember a newbie who made it all the way to Elder status. Remember that?

If the clubs/ AMA would have been the same type of organizations as our two little forums, think how big they all would be now.


Oh and lastly, anyone read Dave M's editorial in this months AMA mag?
TV station contacted a local cub in his district, to do a story on R/C flying........ when the story came out the club got thrown under the bus. The story shown was about terrorist's and what they could do with R/C stuff.

critterhunter

Quote:

Actually, I think your fears have some validity. Thus the need for a Park Flyer voice. I think from the general public view - many do not even consider AMA vs non AMA - only those who fly and those who don't. And many communities have stopped AMA and non-AMA flying all together. I live in a town where the AMA club was disbanded many years ago.

End Quote

The thought of giving power to "regulate" park flyers to some organization is what I fear more than being unprotected via organization. I'm one of those old schoolers when it comes to the way government should work, and often think of the words of some of our founders that haven't been heeded. My feeling is that power corrupts for the most part. Give somebody an inch and they'll take a mile. Let government and some special interest group (not just corporations, but all those little fringe types out there) sit around in a room and do "what's best for you" is in my opinion the first step to losing rights, not gaining them.

You know how that can go. "Gee, our fine organization really likes to fly at such-n-such public park, but darn if we can't keep our thumb on non-members who come and go as they please to fly there. If we get government to ban all non-members from access, and wrap it up in a nice ball of wax to package it pretty (insurance reasons, safety reasons, etc), then we can not only control what "those" guys do, but force them to cough up the money to meet our standards all at the same time. Mr. government guy, do you really want to live with the reputation you'll get when a non-member that you've been allowing to fly in a public park hurts somebody, and then doesn't have the insurance to pay for the accident? Of course you don't, so why don't you sign on this little dotted line here that approves some "MEMBERS ONLY" signs to be put up with all those tax dollars you collect? It'll be the best thing for both of us."

That's were a cold shiver goes up my spine. Add into that all the other variables, such as what qualifies as a park flyer (your plane might be just a hair too big or fast, or only have "toy" electronics in it) and the often "look down your nose" types who get to enforce those rules, and I'll just say that I'll have to pass on the idea. Despite any claims to the contrary, you know very well that we the average joe isn't going to be listened to. Some high and mighty ideas will prevail and we'll all have to suffer under that rulership.

TheHobbyGuy

I think we are on the same side of the page. I am not now or ever advocating the AMA or the IFPA become a regulatory or policing body. In fact, just the opposite, I hope that through a common voice (WE THE PEOPLE) we can all enjoy this hobby and avoid regulation (especially without representation). I do not want forced organization or members, but rather hope to have a community of those with like interests. For those who do not join, I hope we can reach out and offer fellowship. I did not join the AMA until a year ago because of a view of the AMA I had from when I was a kid. The local club where I grew up was exclusive rather than inclusive and set the AMA up to be this big bad thing. Now. the reason I joined was because I enjoyed the guys at the local club where I live now. The club is a charted club, which does require AMA membership, so I joined. So be it - to fly in that space required AMA membership - it was no longer a big deal to me.


From my earlier example of how flying was stopped in my community was because a lady who was paranoid and who just annoyed the officials until they gave in. I hope by organizing we can ensure that flying is OPEN TO ALL and our voice is louder than people like that. My other concern is for safety and education - we want people to have enjoyable experiences and not get frustrated and walk away from a hobby just because no one helped them.

As far as what defines a park flyer - we are working on it and your input is welcome. Its not an easy task and I have joked saying "I can't tell you what a park flyer is, but I know one when I see one." I think the general consensus right now is more around a definition of classifications, not one definition. How safely can you fly X model in Y space. For example, a 1/4 Scale P-51 with 86" wingspan would not be safe on a Soccer field with kids around, nor would it even be possible to fly it in a high school gym (well at least not far..lol). Here is the thread - [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=115400]http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=115400[/link]


To your last point - I am an average Joe. I work, I have two kids, I pay a mortgage, and I like Park Flyers. People are listening. And if we do this right all of us should have a voice that is listened to. I think you will find that most in this hobby are "average joes" - I don't think any Billionaires created this hobby or the AMA to get rich from. At the end of the day, I hope we all just enjoying flying and feel part of a community of others who do so as well.

Keep the comments coming and keep the input coming - this is good stuff!

FMB42

I don't think that the average senior AMA member would want anything to do with a "park flier" joining the AMA and one look at the link below will show you what I mean.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4273706/tm.htm

RaceCraftRC

NO and most of us don't won't anything to do with the AMA i left flying nitro models because of all the drama at the AMA fields i find it insulting that anyone would even suggest a free trial they would have to pay me!! alot

calvino

I think that a free trial is a nice idea for those who want to do it. Personally the fact that I could check out what the AMA is like and if I don't like it at all, then I could just cancel durring the trial and say "well I tried". I know that the nearest flying field to where I live is in Camarillo and they require an AMA membership if you want to fy more than 3 times. If it had options like canceling, discounted "renewal"... I would think it is a good idea (for some), there is my personal take on it.

FERNDALE AIR FORCE

Gentlemen, these are the facts. An administration that cares more about feelings than facts is probably going to be elected next time around. Many of these constituents are scared of airplanes. I generally fly microplanes in my yard, but I joined the AMA because we need somehow to show numbers to D.C. if this IPFA crew can help more power to them. As to the Aztecs that believe that if it doesn't drip oil, it doesn't count, They will be the first to get hit. And if folks that fly electric aren't there, then the government will roll up the hobby. That's just my opinion.

Tim

critterhunter

I'll be a little more blunt with my opinion, as if I wasn't blunt enough already...It should be noted that none of this is based on facts. I haven't dug up XXX membership numbers to see if there is a trend, but just the same here's what I see. The XXX is dying a slow death. It's importance in the hobby will get less and less significant. Many factors are causing this. One of the first would be the age of the internet and access to information. No longer do you need to go somewhere and ask somebody how to build a plane or, in some respects, to even learn how to fly it. That equation alone is reason enough for a steady loss in membership. Secondly, I'd say the "old school" gas-n-glow types are clinging by their fingernails to the edge of a cliff to remain a force in RC, and the XXX is now the "fort" they are taking their last stand in. They aren't as open to new ideas (electric) or the fact that getting a plane to fly isn't some special talent they can brag about anymore, and so the "look down the nose" type of attitude has gotten worse, not better. None of the above lends your average park flyer to wanting to join up. People also get a bit drunk with power, and so throwing your weight around becomes even more important than helping people or the sport out.

Then there is the bottom line as with most things in life...money. The well they've been drawing oil from over the years is starting to go dry, and so they are beginning to look at other sources of revenue. Let's face it, electric Park Flyers is a big money hole these days. Even if the XXX's current source of cash flow isn't as in bad shape as I think, nobody can argue with the fact that there is much more to be had over in electric parkflyer land. I'll be even more frank, when this happens it won't be because they want to help parkflyers out, it'll be for the money, so you can expect them to smile on one side of their face while they take your money and curse you with the otherside for destroying the elite hobby they once had a stranglehold on. That's where I sit with the entire idea.

Maybe, and only maybe, the ONLY way I would be for some type of Park Flyer XXX Like organization, would be only if they made the following rules the very first part of their charter: WE WILL IN NO WAY EVER REQUIRE FLYERS ON PUBLIC PROPERTY TO HAVE INSURANCE OR MEMBERSHIP IN OUR ORGANIZATION, AND IF A GOVERNMENT BODY REQUIRES THIS WE WILL FIGHT THEM EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. AS A FURTHER GESTURE OF GOOD WILL, WE WILL NOT ALLOW OUR MEMBERS TO FLY ANY PLACE WHERE THIS RESTRICTION HAS BEEN MADE. FURTHER, WE WILL NOT TRY TO QUANTIFY WHAT A PARK FLYER IS IN ANY ATTEMPT TO PUT RESTRICTIONS ON THAT ASPECT AS WELL.

If you can put together an organization with those guidelines as it's basis and NOT as an afterthought, then perhaps I'd be willing to join. Your main goal should not be control or rules, but only to spear head freedoms for all park flyers. Otherwise you can keep your hand out of my wallet. By the way, I do know this isn't really an XXX sponsored body you are talking about, so please excuse any references to the XXX which may or may not be true. In fact, I think I'll remove any indications of that from the message...That's what you call a disclaimer so they don't sick their dogs on me.

johnpcunningham

My 2 cents:

1) HAM Radio theory
With the growth of the cell phone, HAM radio vendors saw their revenues dive. Who needed repeaters anymore or an auotpatch to use your home phone. Cell phones were cheap and easy to use. So.....they made the licensing easier. No need for morse code to operate on 2 meters, which is what most handie-talkies are on. The OLD SCHOOLERS screamed!!!! "Oh no...it will turn into CB radio". Their argument was well founded but the economics was killing them...it was going down no matter what. So they bent and surprisingly the HAM radios sales and licensing started to grow and revenues went up. The radio waves did not end up with cursing and the art of the HAM hobby survied. Sure, many don't know morse code but who cares...many people got into HAM and now are upgrading to bigger radios and base stations. And now they learn morse code after the fact. The hobby survived (I did get my HAM license BTW.)

2) Park Flyers
I got into this mainly because I needed a break from everyday living. Got a bunch of advanced degrees, play music, exercise, mtn bike, etc and have been an electrical engineer for 17 years. So I thought, why not...always wanted to try this out. Bought the FSone simulator and when my condifence was up, flew the Challenger as my first plane. Never had a problem, no crashes and enjoyed the sport. Since then, I have deisgned my own equipment to make things more robust and continue to learn and fly bigger and faster planes. Even have a gas plane.

3) Now the AMA
So, like the old HAM radio guys, the old school AMA guys cut their teeth on big gas planes and learned with a trainer. The planes are big, loud, and look great. They crashed and rebuilt again and again. But since then, electronic technology has caught up. Simulators are a great tool, LiPo batteries are very light and powerful, and new ARF planes come with radios and are cheap. So now what. It would seem to me that the old timer AMA guys would want newcomers to learn on the cheaper ParkFlyers first before they come to a sanctioned field and try the larger planes. If they don't, their membership will never grow. The only thing I see that is a must is having someone fight for the FCC frequencies that the RC community uses and fight to not lose them.

4) Case in point
My first challenger hit a power line and killed the receiver. I bought a DX6 and made up my own board and it works - but no XPORT capabilities. I made my EZ-XPORT module and now I can run the Hobbyzone XPORT modules again (no, this is not a promo-plug). So a hobbyshop in California calls me up saying they tried out the Sonic combat modules at a local AMA meet and fell in love with the dogfighting. All of the AMA big plane flyers were asking "can we put these combat modules on our planes", which they replied no, it is only for parkZone and HobbyZone. Well, this guy just bought 200 EZ-XPORT boards from me and wants to order more. My point is that the ParkFlyers have plenty to offer and owe the big scale flyers nothing. I understand old school pride and human instinct, but my hunch would be that the Parkflyers will end up going solo or forming thier own group. Imagine if the Parkflyers association said no to scale AMA flyers - your plane is too big for our club

Closing
The point is that this is a hobby to be enjoyed and has no place for ego & pride. Since I've jumped into it, so have 3 of my friends. we go dogfighting every weekend for 3 hours and a slew of batteries. So much fun. I would hate to be at a sanctioned AMA area with someone telling me what to do and how to fly because of ego or pride. It would just take away from the sport.

Regards,

JC

TheHobbyGuy

That is the best point on the whole thread! It really is! All we all want to do is have some fun and fly. And on both sides of this issue people take things so one way. There are many in the AMA who have a ego and "my plane/club/radio is better then yours" approach..and on the other side, some think - "I have nothing to learn from the AMA guys/nitro guys/club guys" These are the radical and most outer opinions. For me, I want to fly, enjoy the company of people who enjoy flying, and have fun.

All this talk sounds familiar - ask any Heli guy. LOL!

FMB42

You might want to take your "park flyer" to an AMA club (on a busy weekend) and tell them that you are new to the hobby and would like to join the club. Be sure to tell them that you have a new RTF "park flyer" and that you would like some help with learning how to fly it.

TheHobbyGuy

Actually - I did. And they were very helpful. I showed up with a Park Zone J3 Cub. Their reaction was "COOL!". they even taught me how to fly better. Almost any weekend you will find many park flyers models at the club. Guys who have been flying 30+ years come to the field with a Heli, a .60 size sport or larger plane, foamies and even RTF Park Flyers. I know this is not the norm for a lot of clubs, but at my club (MMAC) we just like to fly. I hope we can get more clubs and people to be like that.

Last Xmas - the number one airplane purchase in my club was the Airhogs Aero Ace. One fellow even bought 20+ of them to hand out to everyone in his family , so they could fly too.

Now only if we can get the heli guys to fly something real - JUST KIDDING! I like Heli's too - I even have a CP and CX. You know what they guys did when someone showed up with the CX? They asked to try it out and then went out and bought one for themselves to have fun with. Fun is contagious.

So see - we can all enjoy this together.

Oh and because the guys were so receptive I am a member and the newsletter editor. Not because of what they fly, but because they are good people and I enjoy their company.

ON the flip side - growing up, LONG before any such thing as a Park Flyer, I lived near an AMA club whose members really did not care to help a newbie like me, especially since I was a kid. So in my opinion nothing has changed, anywhere, in any organization you will find those who are fun to be around and you will find those other type of people.

FMB42

I agree and said as much in the post below some time ago in the "To all park flyers" thread. I am also behind you 100%.

My point is this; The AMA needs to work on keeping this hobby "enjoyable for everyone" while those that are not AMA members need to respect the fact that this hobby has serious safety rules that must be observed at all times. Otherwise, this hobby will cease to exist as we know it.

Hey, I resemble that remark! [8D]

critterhunter

The problem with that is who decided what is "safe"? I resent the fact that they think non-standard Parkzone/Hobbyzone electronics are unsafe, while I've seen "standard" setups have more glitching than I ever got with those. I believe that good old fashion horse sense is the best way to approach safety, and not some elitest higher power telling me how to brush my teeth and tie my shoes, or exactly how I should have fun when flying my airplane.

TheHobbyGuy

I resent that same notion. Fortunately its only individuals who have that notion, not the AMA. The AMA safety code only talks about safe operation and FCC frequencies- - not types of radios and servos. I agree, its common sense, I would not use a sub micro servo in my 1/4 scale mustang as its just not going to move the surface (probably not even at rest). Here is what the AMA says -

2. I will have completed a successful radio equipment ground-range check before the first flight of a new or repaired model aircraft.

5. I will operate my model aircraft using only radio-control frequencies currently allowed by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Only
individuals properly licensed by the FCC are authorized to operate equipment on Amateur Band frequencies.

IN my opinion - these are common sensical - but have to be written to avoid the lack of common sense that can be found across the planet.

No mention of standard servos/radios/computer radios or anything. I do know that some people try to make people feel that if you did not spend $1500 on your radio then it must be a toy. My POV - these are all toys, some just more expensive. What any pilot really needs is to be sure they have a safe radio and flight setup that can handle the aircraft.