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what about electrics - 3/28/2003 7:27:07 AM   
Jack Gross



Posts: 22
Joined: 3/8/2003
From: Bedford, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Hi mkirsch,
First let me say that I agree that, at this point in time, there are few, if any electric “trainers” that would fit all of your requirements. There have been many threads on this topic on E-Zone and I have discussed this same issue with Bob Kopski who brought up the same perspective in his RC Electrics column in the January issue of Model Aviation. His clarification in the April issue is the result of our correspondence.
However, the point that you miss is that folks learn in many different ways using different methods and resources. And, for many different reasons, newcomers are teaching themselves to fly RC airplanes using a plethora of slow electric powered planes. That is the only “fact” in this discussion that concerns me because it means that AMA is missing out on a valuable human resource right from the get-go! Like it or not, AMA is the voice of this hobby when it comes to dealing with the industry and the (shudder) government. If we want to hang on to the precious little hunk of the radio spectrum we call “our channels” or deal with insurance issues, or any of the hundreds of areas AMA is involved in, they need the support of all of us in this hobby/sport. AMA acknowledges that this is the fastest growing segment of our hobby but has not come to grips with needed changes in the club instructional program. And in fact is chasing folks away!
Jack

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 26

what about electrics - 3/28/2003 6:33:44 PM   
goofup



Posts: 222
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Yukon, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Yea, what Jack said…

However, I have trouble with the line “(The) AMA… has not come to grips with the needed changes in the club instructional program.” I don’t think the AMA has to make any changes, the clubs themselves do. If they want to be a glow-only club, that’s fine. If they want to decide they want to get into “the fastest growing segment of our hobby”, then they’re going to have to decide on the changes their instructional program needs to accommodate the beginner wanting to join and fly electrics only. Of course, I still contend that the two are so different that want we really need are more electric-only AMA sanctioned clubs with electric savvy instructors.

So here we have the electric beginner going off to the soccer field down the street and through trial and error, having to learning on his own cause the local flying club ticked him off, insisting that he learn on a glow plane first. That’s perfectly understandable and reasonable from their point of view- but not his. Luckily, he can sneak off to the soccer field and say to heck with them. The result is the AMA loses a member, the club loses a member and his dues, and the beginner has to learn on his own.

If the AMA needs to do anything, it needs to revise, or come up with an additional, insurance plan so that it covers parkflyers flying in parks. As it stands, it’s worthless for parkflyers. Second, the AMA needs to encourage the formation of electric clubs with special charters allowing relaxed field size, etc. rules geared more toward the parkflyer.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 27

what about electrics - 3/28/2003 7:52:03 PM   
Jack Gross



Posts: 22
Joined: 3/8/2003
From: Bedford, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Good points Goofup. But, there is a long history behind the present “instructional” program at AMA club fields. The Pattern guys, who know a lot about flying, were involved in setting it up. This was done at the “headquarters level” of AMA. I have no personal quarrel with it, as it obviously works. However lots of newcomers do! I think there are many ways to learn to fly and we ought to be looking at what folks are doing. this isn’t the only example of clubs with views of “incompatibility” at the field. Combat, sailplanes, U-control, small or very large planes, helicopters, etc. are often considered inappropriate by one club or another. But, with newcomers, who need help just to get into the hobby/sport, I think we need an organization-wide policy on EP.
Jack

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 28

Re: AMA Insurance - 3/28/2003 9:47:34 PM   
Matt Kirsch



Posts: 7039
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]As it stands, it’s worthless for parkflyers.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, that is incorrect. You don't have to be flying at an "AMA Sanctioned Field" for the AMA insurance to be effective. This is because there is no such thing as an "AMA Sanctioned Field." The AMA charters clubs, and sanctions events, period. You can literally fly anywhere and be covered, as long as you are able to follow the simple rules outlined in the AMA Safety Code.

All:

How would you suggest that clubs go about "revising" their training program to accomodate electrics? I'd like to know.

Who's going to force instructors to purchase electric aircraft and learn about electric technology, so they can be helpful when a newbie shows up with some obscure park flier design, and wants to learn to fly? Frankly, it's just as evil to force instructors to learn about electrics if they don't want to as it is to force newbies to learn on glow planes if they don't want to.

You seem to think that a club is a service organization that's there to cater to your needs. It's not. You're not paying for flying lessons; your dues support the maintenance of the flying field(s), and fund club events. Training is done on a volunteer basis, on the instructors' terms. They get to set the terms because they're the ones generously giving up their time to help you.

There has to be a little give-and-take here, as it's not fair to the instructors to have to give up all their personal flying time, and a considerable portion of their flying budget, to keep abreast of the latest advancements in R/C technolgy. Instructors want to fly their own planes, and build the planes they're interested in, you know. They didn't get into the hobby solely to teach others.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 29

what about electrics - 3/29/2003 12:18:28 AM   
Jack Gross



Posts: 22
Joined: 3/8/2003
From: Bedford, VA, USA
Status: offline 		WOW, I didn't realize I had said all of that. So, I really can't respond. I do know about AMA's insurance (such as it is) and didn't meant to imply anything about it's coverage or restrictions, except to say that it is provided and negotiated by AMA as one benefit of membership. Did I mention anything about forcing anyone to do anything, if so I certainly didn't mean to. Guidelines are set up only to help a process achieve a desired outcome. They aren't rules. And, as to what they should be? That is the whole point of my post. I don't know, but I'll bet there are some suggestions out there that would help clubs and instructors who want to help newcomers! What ideas would you suggest to a club interested in teaching EP? What equipment would you recommend, what skills should be taught, what safety considerations should be discussed? If a club wants to get into an EP training program, where should it go for help? Seems reasonable to me that AMA has a roll here.
Jack

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 30

teaching electrics - 3/29/2003 5:39:46 AM   
Jim Finn



Posts: 660
Joined: 10/15/2002
From: Lubbock, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I flew glow 40 sized planes 20 years ago and then dropped out of the hobby. Coming back in I decided to try electric. Joined a club built an EagleII and then the instructor refused to teach me on electric because he did not know anything about it and insisted the flying time is not enough. I insisted (after all I paid $200 to join the club) so he said that because I had flown years back he would give it a go but I had to figure out the electric part myself. He tought me just fine with 6-9 min flights. He complained on the short flights but I said "what is the big deal , land install another battery and take off." Worked fine. And I learned to land in short order. I have done nothing but electrics since.

_____________________________

" But that is just my opinion, I could be wrong" (Dennis Miller)

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 31

what about electrics - 3/29/2003 9:05:13 AM   
Tippie



Posts: 298
Joined: 12/22/2002
From: Private, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Well, I guess all the electric flyers know now that they better not ask for any instructor to help them learn to fly because to do so would be an imposition. Just go to the local park and learn on your "non-trainer" slow stick. No need to join any club because you're not welcome there either. Just be a non conforming loner.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 32

what about electrics - 3/29/2003 6:34:44 PM   
Jack Gross



Posts: 22
Joined: 3/8/2003
From: Bedford, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Ah Tippie, irony, with the soul of a poet.
Or, you could just join our club, which has a strong ethic of service. And, where you would be welcome and instructed with any kind of plane you want. (Although, I don’t think anyone is flying jets at this time.) Of course, you may have a long commute!
I'll bet that if you look around, you'll find another just lik ours a little closer.
Nothing wrong with the do-it-yourself approach though, after all, that's how Wilbur and Orville did it.
Jack

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 33

what about electrics - 3/29/2003 10:47:10 PM   
Tippie



Posts: 298
Joined: 12/22/2002
From: Private, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Actually Jack, I have found that it would be an exception for any club to not have interests in electric flying. As far as electrics go, I live in the West Atlanta metro area and there are plenty of active flyers around, within 50 miles. I DO appreciate the invite though. The technology of non "IC" engine flying is advancing so fast that it boggles the mind. Maybe it IS difficult for some to grasp the knowledge and skills needed to get a plane into the air. But that doesn't mean they should be scorned or put down. Clubs I am familiar with like to see the latest. The seasoned flyers are more that willing to help a newcomer. The newbie will be reluctant to fly and the old timers will say, "you can't go home without knowing it will fly, so lets check it over and get in the air." I don't think the electric aspect of the hobby is going away so I guess the next best thing to do is try to learn more about it and give it a shot, "Ask Mikey, he likes it."

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 34

what about electrics - 3/29/2003 11:20:29 PM   
Jack Gross



Posts: 22
Joined: 3/8/2003
From: Bedford, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Bedford, Virginia is a small town and very un-metropolitan but I find the same thing is true. Our club members have personal interests, but are always interested in new stuff. (My interest spans both EP & gas.) But, we have CL, helicopters, giant scale, sailplanes, sport, and even rockets! All are welcome and to my knowledge, on newcomer has ever been snubbed. And there has always been someone with the time to help a newcomer. That’s how I got started.
You really hit the nail on the head Tippie – electric is the future. You will soon see that 40-size electric ARF that will meet all of the “conditions” suggested above – and I bet it will outsell the glo versions. All of those performance conditions are already easily met with existing technology. Perhaps the problem will fade away to be replaced by the newcomer with a glo powered plane who can’t find an instructor who even knows how to get the darn thing started!
Jack

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 35

what about electrics - 3/30/2003 2:17:22 AM   
Tippie



Posts: 298
Joined: 12/22/2002
From: Private, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Jack, if you have a copy of the December 2002 issue of Model Aviation Magazine (AMA) check page 35. Center left is a photo of an old friend (haven't seen him in nearly 30 years) who flew an electric FAI in pattern competition at the 2002 Nats. Kind of a goofy last name for the guy. Back then (30 years ago) Joe was a Captain in the AF and piloted KC-135's (over 12,000 hrs) and was in our club in Council Bluffs, Iowa. We had about 35 AF members from SAC HQ in the club. Joe was in the top ten of pattern flyers in the nation at the time. By the way we had another member (Dean Koger, also USAF) that vasilated between 1st and 3rd in pattern competition at that time. Anyway, it can be done with electrics. There was an article written by Joe's brother, John, about the airplane and the details of how it was constructed but right now I can't locate it. It must have been written since the 1st of this year. I'm thinking RCM but can't find it. Joe's flying is still top notch even though I think he must be in his early 60's. So, it can be done and anyone thinks that electric is a passing fad had better wake up and smell the sweet tea (don't have much coffee here in the south).

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 36

what about electrics - 3/30/2003 3:06:21 AM   
goofup



Posts: 222
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Yukon, OK, USA
Status: offline 		I’m with Jack. Where did forcing glow instructors to purchase electric aircraft and learning about electric technology come from? Those who already know about electrics can volunteer to instruct. If nobody at the club knows about EP or wants to learn (ie, those in a glow only club), then don’t worry about it. I see nothing wrong with a glow-only club telling an electric beginner that they are just not familiar with electric planes and that they should seek out another club in the area that is.

By the way, of course I think a flying club is there to service my needs. If it doesn’t meet the needs of its members (both new and old), what’s its point of existing? Of course members pay dues for various events, get on the “Mowing List”, and do service for the club like painting, meeting room prep and cleanup, etc. However, as a beginner just signing up, I would certainly expect my dues to include flight instruction! Sure the instructors are volunteering their time, but that’s how they do “service” for the club, and in turn, the club “services” the new member. If existing members don’t want to be bothered with instructing beginners nobody is going to make them, but (taken to the extreme) what beginner would want to join a club with no instructors, and how is a club to grow without them?

To quickly answer Jack’s questions:

“What ideas would you suggest to a club interested in teaching EP?”
Do not let any trainers near beginners that have that “.40-size trainer is the only way to learn” mentality!!!!! If you have some members flying EP, let them instruct new EP members. Even if this would be the club’s very first EP-only flyer, let him join anyway and do the best you can to teach him to fly with what he’s got (hey, once upon a time there was a first-time fuel flyer, too). Whatever you do, refrain from comparing EP to fuel!

“What equipment would you recommend?”
Slow Stick, Tiger Moth, Wingo/Soarstar. They can go on to 4-channel after these. Or, go with a Super Miss 2, Grumbler, etc., if they want to start training with ailerons. No Firebirds, etc.!

“What skills should be taught?
The same flying skills the clubs are teaching now- turning and flying various patterns without loosing or gaining altitude, landings, control reversal, etc. However, the taxiing and takeoff requirements may need “adjustment”, and allowances for hand-launching added.

“What safety considerations should be discussed?”
The same ones they do now.

“If a club wants to get into an EP training program, where should it go for help?”
Other clubs who already have EP training programs, or other EP-only clubs.

< Message edited by Goofup -- Mar 31 2003 12:24PM >

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 37

what about electrics - 4/1/2003 12:02:59 AM   
NHSoaring



Posts: 16
Joined: 1/21/2003
From: Lyndeborough, NH,
Status: offline 		I have taught several people to fly with the Great Planes Escapade. My vote for an electric trainer.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 38

what about electrics - 4/1/2003 10:23:59 PM   
Matt Kirsch



Posts: 7039
Joined: 7/5/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Hey, I'm only going on what people say here. People often complain that when they go to the local glow club and ask for instruction, they were told they "must" purchase a .40 glow trainer in order to learn to fly. The typical response is that clubs should "revise their instruction plan" to accomodate electrics. How else are you going to gain the knowledge, except by buying and flying the kinds of electric planes you'd recommend to a beginner?

What if there is no electric interest in the club? What if the electric interest in the club is not capable of instruction?

I'm the only one in my club of 100+ that is an instructor, and has enough knowledge of electrics to know what to do when the plane doesn't fly as expected. The pure e-fliers in the club are barely capable of piloting their own ships, let alone teaching someone else to fly (one of 'em almost took my head off with a .40 glow trainer late last year, and he's the best e-pilot we have). I own the only brushless motor in the club.

What I mean by,