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what about electrics - 6/19/2003 8:27:00 AM   
Jack Gross



Posts: 22
Joined: 3/8/2003
From: Bedford, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Hi electron,
Some good thoughts. Perhaps you and I see a broader picture and have had pleasant experiences flying both gas and electric planes, however some folks have had problems trying to learn to fly electric - at club fields. Others have been warmly received. Those that have had problems certainly have the right to fuss about it. And, I think (for whatever that’s worth) that we should listen and see if there is anything that can (or should) be done. And dare I say, AMA has assumed leadership in our hobby and perhaps they should at least be aware of the problems too. Maybe they could even offer some help?
I know that some strongly held opinions sound like, and may in fact be, “ranting” and some comments may even be “baiting” us a little. But so is, “I love vanilla ice cream and I hate strawberry!” That’s just an opinion, but if enough folks rant about flavors, perhaps there will always be a choice - and the, gosh darn, strawberry lovers of the world won’t take over!
How’s that for a really screwed up allegory ?

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 76

what about electrics - 6/19/2003 8:47:43 AM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Oh so true! Excellent analogy using Ice Cream!

We have a rift going at one of our local clubs right now with helicopters. It's amazing that people that all love the RC sport can be some dang stubborn sometimes.

The reason I brought about one of local clubs is it's just not electrics its helicopters sail planes and basically anything that they are not flying. I have come to the conclusion that there are these types of people no matter where you go. I stay out of these issues myself simply put, I am out there to Fly that’s what I love to do and those types well they are in the wrong place for that and need realize that the world doesn’t revolve around only for them.

It’s works pretty well too! I had one come to me complaining about the Helicopters and I just told them I am out here to Fly and if you don’t want to talk about Flying then I am not interested. Funny thing they responded with I can respect that, and they seemed to have chilled out little after that.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 77

what about electrics - 6/20/2003 12:29:56 AM   
KatManDEW



Posts: 367
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Newark, OH, USA
Status: offline 		This thread should be watt about eletrics

I fly glow/gas & electric (of all sizes), and I'm really starting to like electric for a multitude of reasons.

One thing I hear folks routinely do is consider the battery cost as part of the cost of the aircraft, when the battery is actually fuel. Sure, you can't fly the electric plane without the battery, but you can't fly a glow plane without fuel. Only difference is that you can pay for liquid fuel on an "as needed" basis, and you have to purchase electric fuel "in advance".

That said, if you want to compare the fuel costs there are some numbers you can put to paper using what known variables you have. I put a [URL=http://www.lcrcc.net/Fuel_Cost.htm]Fuel Cost Calculator[/URL] on my club's web site. You can use something like that to compare the cold hard facts.

There are of course other factors involved which can be quibbled about, but you can still get a good idea of the picture with just a few pieces of data and some simple calculations.

People who don't like electric flight will argue about things like the fact that as the batteries get older you don't get a full discharge from them, but those poeple overlook the fuel they spill on the ground, and the fuel they waste starting, warming and tuning an engine, and running the fuel out of the engine at the end of the day. If you forget the Ford/Chevy part of it, fuel cost for electric flight looks pretty dog gone good.

For reference, if you try the calculator, typical cycle life for NiCd & NiMh batteries are around 100 to 200 cycles (when used for eflight). Lipoly batteries have a cycle life of up to 500 cycles.

< Message edited by KatManDEW -- Jun 20 2003 12:26AM >

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 78

what about electrics - 6/22/2003 9:05:09 AM   
MAC_2111



Posts: 13
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Providence, RI, USA
Status: offline 		Electron,

Great job, plane looks awesome. What paint did you use on
the canopy? I was going to outline my frame silver and
do the rest black, I have changed my mind the all black
looks great. They recommend CA glue for the canopy,
did you have any problems using epoxy? I was going
to opt for probond on the canopy, but I have plenty of 12
min epoxy, oderless CA is tough to find and I would rather
not use it.

Thanks,

MAC

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 79

what about electrics - 6/22/2003 9:35:30 AM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks,

I really like the way it turned out also, looks a lot like a real tomcat.

I just used some off the shelf generic gloss black spray can enamel for the canopy. The real key is to paint the inside only, this gives a real deep clear coat look to the outside.

To me epoxy was the perfect choice for gluing the canopy on, works great with foam and plastic and has enough working time to get it positioned right before it sets up. I then just took some alcohol on a rag and wiped any excess off. Alcohol will clean epoxy right off, as long as you don’t let up completely set. I used 6 min but 12 would work just as well.

CA and foam is a no no, I guess the odorless is ok on foam, but why bother when like me you have some good ole epoxy around.

Again thanks for the complement on the plane.

I am still waiting on the batteries to get her in the air. UPS tracking says they will arrive in the next couple days, so if the weather is good I will be giving my flight review soon...

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 80

what about electrics - 6/24/2003 12:04:54 PM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		YES! My batteries came in today finally !!! AND GUESS WHAT, THE WIND BLEW 20 MPH GUST ALL DAY @#@#@..


Well I figured I could at least give them a field test tonight.

Well first thing was to install the pack in the plane. GUESS WHAT THE CG was perfect if anything a hair nose heavy, but really closer to a perfect balance. It was perfect with the canopy off, but with it on it almost makes it tip forward slightly at same CG location. Couldn't be better that is CG I would have setup even if I had to move something.

So next I used an MRC959 charger and charged a pack up. Well after a good charge it peaked at 11.38 volts and was pretty warm. I hooked up the battery to the planes speed controller, then put it in between the arms of a office chair so it couldn't fly off and the prop was clear and started her up.

WOW the thrust was pretty impressive, it actually got the chair to turn some in it place.

Here is what the initial charge of a 9.6 volt 8 cell 2/3 1000mah pack discharged at.

4.45 seconds full tilt power even with aileron and elevator movement.

2.35 seconds of semi good power definitely enough to still fly around and with.

30 seconds of greatly reduced thrust might be enough to fly on but I would be looking at my approach for landing..

Well I am impressed need less to say. I figure with any throttle management at all this plane with these cells is good for 6 minute flights no problem and maybe upwards of 7 to 8 minutes of flight.

WOW WOW HOT BATTERIES AND I MEAN HOT... TO HOT TO HOLD... I AM PLAYING HOT POTATO WITH THE PACK.

Wonder if this is normal? I raced rc cars before and I know the batteries got rather warm in them as well, but I think this was even warmer. Wonder if this is a characteristic of NiMh's? I am new to the NiMh's but wow this pack was hot! I have since let it cool and charged it again, seems to be fine so who knows!

I am excited this looks to be fun plane. Now if the weather will just cooperate and give some calm weather. I will head to the RC field for it's maiden flight and my fight review of the ElectraJet..

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 81

what about electrics - 6/24/2003 5:23:00 PM   
KatManDEW



Posts: 367
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Newark, OH, USA
Status: offline 		electron; Have you tried searching the discussion groups on [URL=http://www.ezonemag.com]EZone[/URL] for information about the Elextrajet? I just tried a search about it there and it looks like there's quite a bit of good information there.

It varies from battery to battery, and don't quote me here, but a battery temp of over 130 to 140 deg F is not good. It will reduce flight time and battery life. Some cooling air over the batteries in flight is a good idea on setups where the batteries get pretty warm. If the batteries are imbedded in a foam plane like the Elextrajet, the foam is an excellent thermal insulator and it makes the batteries run hotter.

The KAN 950 batteries are real nice and might be the best bet for the Electrajet. I had a friend who was running some 1100 mah batteries in a plane and he was getting very poor results. It was hard getting the plane airborne and he could barely keep it in the air for one lap. I ordered some KAN 950's for him and now he's having a great time flying that plane.

If you find a plane that you really like, the lithium polymer batteries are the kat's meow. Much lighter than NiCd or NiMh batteries, with much higher capacity. Flight times of 20 minutes and more are not uncommon with lipoly batteries .

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 82

what about electrics - 6/25/2003 1:58:14 AM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the information and I will check ezone out.

I looked at the KAN 950 but the weight was actually a little bit more then the 2/3A 1000's I choose so my thinking is little more capacity less weight is a good thing.

Well I did another test run today since the wind is blowing like crazy again, go figure wait over ten days for the batteries and just about every day was calm..... Now that I have the batteries guess what the wind decides to do....$#%%#$%#

This test run I use a Tach and checked the RPM at in 1 minute incrementals.

Here is the data I came up with... Yes I know I do tend to get a little over board on the scientific data guess that just the engineer in me coming out!!!

Minute RPM Throttle at Full

1 5250
2 5300
3 5300
4 5250
5 4800
6 4200
7 4100
8 3600
9 1200
10 1200
11 1200

Batteries didn't get near as hot this time not sure why the difference... If I could find my thermal probe for my DVM I would have taken temp reading as well...

I did charge the batteries at a different rate on the second test, wonder if that was the difference.

Still waiting in the weather give me some calm winds!

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 83

what about electrics - 6/25/2003 8:04:22 AM   
KatManDEW



Posts: 367
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Newark, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Yep. The dog gone weather is usually uncooperative. Sounds like your getting you're getting good usable discharge from those batteries, so you should be good to go.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 84

what about electrics - 6/25/2003 8:29:09 AM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		YEA the weather never fails to fail!!!!!!!

That is what I was also thinking on the batteries... Really looks to be a good 5 minute flight and then a couple minutes of cursing time before you land... Because really anything after 7 minutes is questionable to if it would even maintain flight altitude.

Sure hope the wind takes a rest!

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 85

what about electrics - 7/3/2003 12:01:44 PM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Batteries in Weather Nice and an ElectraJet flight review...

Well after a few bumpy starts on the initial flights of the ElectraJet, I have finally gotten some good solid flight time on it and have to say WOW it’s a blast.

I thought I would cover the bumpy starts I had, this will hopefully help others experience a much easier to control ElectraJet on the initial flights.

These are the Items that need particular care in getting right.

The first would be about setting up the neutral position on the flight control surfaces. Using a ruler just make sure it all touches flat on the ruler and tighten the control rod set screws. I centered mine and it took full down trim to keep if from stalling it was a really wild fiight! With that even with the bottom setting I only needed a few clicks of trim to gain level flight

Second on setting up the CG, using the factory marks on the under side of the wing was way to tail heavy. I ended up moving the radio and all the electronics to the very back of the radio/battery compartment (I read about this in the news groups of other owners as well) this was so I could get the battery as far forward as possible. This made mine about a 1/2 inch forward of the factory marks to gain good flight characteristics. I will be including some photos soon of the reconfiguring of the radio equipment. Again really wild flight with a tail heavy way to much up trim setup!

Third is the amount of control surface movement. This is a big one! My first flights with 100% control surface movement made it very hard to fly, not to mention being tail heavy and to much up, It was a wild one even for an experienced RC pilot like me to fly.

I gather you are all getting it was really wild ride HUH?

Once I reduced it down to 60% travel using the ATV trims on the radio it was MUCH easier to control.

My thoughts on how the ElectraJet performs.

General Flight performance I would rate as great smooth basic park flight performer and with not having any expertise with other park fliers, I think this one is pretty quick 25mph for sure maybe closer to 40mph with a down wind drive.

Vertical I would rate as decent no straight up vertical but 45% climb rate is easy obtainable. I was able to manage a loop with a dive to gain speed.

Barrel rolls are great even better with a little extra aileron throw. My radio settings are now 60% throw on the elevator and 80% on the ailerons, unfortunately you wound not be able to use these settings if you are using an analog radio instead of a computer controlled radio.

Flight times using 8 cell 2/3A 1000mah battery configuration are at a solid 6 minutes. I am going to play with some other battery configurations as well but nothing wrong with a 6 minute flight!

Aerobatic flight performance if very minimum, inverted and some loops is all this one is capable of. Which for a stock out of the box park flier is excellent in my thinking?

I would strongly suggest this model as a second model! It uses ailerons to turn and some low wing expertise would be a definite positive. I think its little fast for a true back yard flier in confined spaces. (Haven’t tried my back yard yet but that will be next!)


Till then I will be having fun flying my ElectraJet.

Full Review at

http://www.electronware.com/electrajet/electrajet.html

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 86

what about electrics - 7/3/2003 7:47:11 PM   
KatManDEW



Posts: 367
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Newark, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Glad to hear it worked out and you like it. I had trouble finding anything respectable when I first started flying electrics, but now I've got some that have all the power and duration I could ever want.

(in reply to kalvin)
       Post #: 87

what about electrics - 7/4/2003 11:04:24 AM   
electron



Posts: 259
Joined: 6/2/2003
From: Inola, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks, had a bunch of flights on the ElectraJet today weather was hot, but the wind was calm... It's a great little flier... But it's already getting to tame for me...

Dang now I have the electric flight itch!!!

So in stride I bought me another electric plane today!!!

I bought a Ripmax Alliance pattern plane...strange thing is I have been reading a lot about electric fliers lately but this one hasn't really gotten that much coverage.

I wouldn’t have know about it either, but an RC buddy of mine had a tape of an electric fly in (since he heard I was getting into electrics) Well while I was watching the video I saw a plane perform that I knew I wanted, whatever it was!!! Of all them I saw on the tape it was the only one I saw that really did patterns... There were a couple electro streaks, slow sticks and lots of zagi’s but