RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (Full Version)

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swlarcham -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/17/2009 5:55 PM)

I was thinking of asking if they could change back to the white stuff. Of course I already know that answer is gonna be no[:D]
Kinda like when I complained to my pharmacy computer vendor about how the system worked and was told they wouldn't rewrite the entire program just for me.[:D]
Eddie



gaRCfield -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/17/2009 7:04 PM)

I just wanted to throw in that Arch's VF3 on the cover of the K-factor looks amazing.



rcpattern -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/17/2009 11:54 PM)

Thanks Joe. That's because my wife is in the pic. She actually did the covering on the wings and stabs.

Arch



gaRCfield -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/17/2009 11:58 PM)

...might as well display it...



Ryan Smith -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/18/2009 3:52 AM)

Didn't she cover her cell phone as well?



rcpattern -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/18/2009 12:41 PM)

Yep, she sure did. Rusty even did a short inverview with her about it.



cdodom -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/18/2009 1:14 PM)

Hold on, Where are the bubbles Arch?



cmoore806 -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/26/2009 6:37 PM)

I put in one hard point in my left aileron. I put it back far enough to put the piviot of my MK control horn right over the hinge line. Thats how its done, right? Anyways, this hard point is so far forward that I am worried it will get a lot weaker when I sand my bevel. The back of the bevel is right at the hole for my control horn bolt. What am I doing wrong?



rcpattern -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/26/2009 6:58 PM)

Chris,

Just looked on my wings built by Mike and you are basically in the same place. His may have been just a shade back from yours, but my MK horn is right over the hinge line. The hard point is definitely beveled though. I've never had a problem with mine.

Arch



cmoore806 -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/26/2009 7:23 PM)

Arch do you run a straight M3 bolt or do you use the fancy aluminum post style control horns? I think I have to run a bolt since it would interfere with the movement.



rcpattern -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/26/2009 8:13 PM)

Mine is the straight bolt. I think mine is 6-32 though. With the plastic in the MK horn, doesnt really matter, it makes its own threads.



lodomjr -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (11/27/2009 12:46 AM)

Chris,

My hard points are set the same way Arch described. I noticed your bevel line passing right through the bolt hole, you may want to reset the bevel amount you are putting in the ailerons. Maybe let the bevel line pass in front of the bolt hole about a 1/16th inch. This will shorten your aileron deflection a little, but you don't need a tremendous of aileron deflection anyway. As Arch said that you will sand into the hard point some making the bevel but it's ok. I also use the 6x32 bolts for control arms and the MK style adjusters. I use small 6x32 blind nut put on upside down with the barbs removed as jam nuts. This set up makes for a good solid control arm assembly.

Larry



Aussie_Knife_Edge -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (12/9/2009 11:18 AM)

G'day Dean,

Have started to jig up my fuse and make sure everything is aligned before hitting it with Zap.

One thing i've noticed on my kit is that the stab socket holes in the fuse sides and doublers are 1mm too big. The stab root rib socket hole is spot on. Is there an error in the laser file or have I just missed something?

I think I'll have to wrap some glass around the stab socket to build up the diameter...

Cheers
Jason.



lodomjr -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (12/9/2009 2:49 PM)

Jason,

In your kit there should be some lite ply donuts for the stab. They glue to the inside the fuse and the stab housing goes through them and the donuts should fit tight to the stab housing. The loose holes on the fuse is so you can properly align the stab to the wing and fuse and the donuts hold the housing in the correct position. Once everything is dry I would make sure all gaps between the fuse and stab housing was filled with epoxy. Just a side note the wing tube housing is done in a similar fashion.
I hope this info helps


Larry



handglider -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (12/9/2009 3:23 PM)

Hi Jason,

what you actually do is trim the outside stab tube so it extends about 1/16 out on both sides of the fuse. once you align and spot glue the stab tube in place. lay the fuse on it's side and with 5 min epoxy fill the gap flowing the epoxy against the tube, once dry sand flush with a block and your done....

If you built a jig like mine, you can align the wing and stab tubes in the jig,

sounds like your making progress....

dean




Aussie_Knife_Edge -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (12/9/2009 8:51 PM)

G'day Larry and Dean,

Progress has been slow due to other distractions.

The doughnuts are the same oversize diameter as the fuse sides so that makes them a loose fit on the tube socket. The hole in the root rib is a nice snug fit over the socket.

I might make some new snug doughnuts and jig things so the stab and wing tubes are square to the fuse centre line. A little more procrastinating required.. :-)

Cheers Guys,

Jason.



cmoulder -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/13/2010 3:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: woodie

Chris, if you take the DEPS/teflon sheathing approach as Larry describes above, be sure and keep the thread wraps 'loose' when you CA them to the sheath and support sticks. If you wraps the thread too tightly, it will drag on the DEPS rods where the threads wrap around the assembly. Don't ask how I know this...

Woodie


Grrrrr....[:@][:@]

Found this out the hard way last night, after spending about an hour fabricating the whole stick/sheath thing for a Focus II. VERY annoying.

Got me thinking, when one looks at the weight of the whole tedious stick/sheath/CF rod rigamarole, one could just use some slightly heavier, stiffer CF tube to make the split portion, support it at the fuse exit with some sort of sheath, then use the small CF rod glued into the CF tube where it exits the fuse to complete the run to the elevator horn, using the supplied titanium bits, which are excellent. Probably end up lighter than the stick/sheath arrangement and definitely a heckuva lot easier!




slipkid -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/22/2010 9:06 PM)

Hi All,
As of today, I am the proud new owner of a Black Magic VF3 in the bones with a full YS 170 dingo and Hatori header + Short Pipe. I am an expreinced pilot, but new to pattern and have admired the looks of this plane for a while now, so I jumped at the chance to buy one. It will take me a while to get to finishing it off, as I have 2 other projects ahead of it, but I would like to ask the group a few questions

1) Has anyone covered thier VF3's purley with covering rather than the paint route? - I have painted before (WWII scale), so it does not scare me. but I would still like to cover this plane rather than paint if possible. I am concerned about the "crunch" factor with covering only when the wing is picked up by someone not familliar with the fragility of this structure against crush - I would think covering would be
lighter as well - Any opinions here?

2) The ship has a DEPS setup using clear tubing and I am quite concerend about how stiff the setup is by hand. I was considering using two low profile servoes in the horizontal tail with short direct linkage, but am wondering if this is possible, given the significant distance the tail is behind the CG - anyone try this and get the CG OK ?( Keep in mind, powerplant will be the YS 170 and I may also use dual A123 lfight packs up front) - Otherwise, I am going to be stuck trying to figure out how to get the DEPS setup to be much smoother

3) I am also considering using 2 A123 packs for reiever power, as I have dual batteries, switches, and wiring to my reciver in all my planes tthat will take the setup - never had a problem with this setup and I trust it - I am wondering if I can use the A123's to help offset the possible dual elevator servo idea from #2 above

AS of now, I do not intend to compete for a season or two, and then it would only be in the lower classes. I bought this ship also to be a regualr flyer at the field, as I am getting tired of aimlessley boring hoels in the sky with YAKs, extras, etc. and have always admired how a pattern ship flies

I fly with and am an instructor with Skymasters RC club of Troy, MI. -any help or opinions would be greatly appreciated


THanks in advance

Joe F.



rcpattern -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/22/2010 9:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slipkid

Hi All,
As of today, I am the proud new owner of a Black Magic VF3 in the bones with a full YS 170 dingo and Hatori header + Short Pipe. I am an expreinced pilot, but new to pattern and have admired the looks of this plane for a while now, so I jumped at the chance to buy one. It will take me a while to get to finishing it off, as I have 2 other projects ahead of it, but I would like to ask the group a few questions

1) Has anyone covered thier VF3's purley with covering rather than the paint route? - I have painted before (WWII scale), so it does not scare me. but I would still like to cover this plane rather than paint if possible. I am concerned about the ''crunch'' factor with covering only when the wing is picked up by someone not familliar with the fragility of this structure against crush - I would think covering would be
lighter as well - Any opinions here?

2) The ship has a DEPS setup using clear tubing and I am quite concerend about how stiff the setup is by hand. I was considering using two low profile servoes in the horizontal tail with short direct linkage, but am wondering if this is possible, given the significant distance the tail is behind the CG - anyone try this and get the CG OK ?( Keep in mind, powerplant will be the YS 170 and I may also use dual A123 lfight packs up front) - Otherwise, I am going to be stuck trying to figure out how to get the DEPS setup to be much smoother

3) I am also considering using 2 A123 packs for reiever power, as I have dual batteries, switches, and wiring to my reciver in all my planes tthat will take the setup - never had a problem with this setup and I trust it - I am wondering if I can use the A123's to help offset the possible dual elevator servo idea from #2 above

AS of now, I do not intend to compete for a season or two, and then it would only be in the lower classes. I bought this ship also to be a regualr flyer at the field, as I am getting tired of aimlessley boring hoels in the sky with YAKs, extras, etc. and have always admired how a pattern ship flies

I fly with and am an instructor with Skymasters RC club of Troy, MI. -any help or opinions would be greatly appreciated


THanks in advance

Joe F.


Joe,

Since I have probably over 2000 flights on this airframe, I will answer your questions, and feel free to PM me or whatever with any other questions,

1. There is nothing wrong with covering the plane with Monokote. The original prototype was done this way and had MANY MANY flights. It dings easier, and probably doesnt give quite as nice a finish, but there certainly is nothing wrong with doing it that way.

2. Use the DEPS. It is more than adequate. My plane has never had a problem, and I personally like the feel of the plane with the DEPS. Many guys have used the 2 servos in the tail route and been successful as well. The DEPS setup you are talking about is more than adequate as my new one is setup the same way. My original (the oldest living V3) has never had any issues. Yes if you grab it, it feels kind of flexible, but once hooked up, you wont have any issues.

3. No reason you can't run an A123 setup in the plane. It is very easy to end up with the plane tail heavy as it has such a long tail moment. You want the CG just at the front of the wing tube is where I've been the happiest with mine.

The plane has no bad habits and you'll be very happy with the setup. Since you had the 1.70DZ, I would definitely consider getting the CDI kit from central as it cuts WAY down on fuel useage and you just get a better behaving engine all around. Your idle will amaze you with the CDI setup. 1200-1300 is pretty normal with this setup. Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have,

Have fun,

Arch



slipkid -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/22/2010 10:12 PM)

HI Arch
Thank you very much for the helpful response and quick one to boot! - I will certainly take you up on PM'ing you, as I ask lots of questions before I make a cut

In my question about the DEPS, I guess my main concerin at the moment is the required force to move the currently installed setp back and forth ( carbon tubes not attacehd at Elevator end, but are connected to ball link at fuse, ready to take attachment to servo in carbon servo tray. Since I also fly helicopters, I am used to very, very smooth pushrod movement to my Heli tails, which I make sure always happens. I am concerned with the amount of force necessary to move the DEPS setup and since the fuse is all completely sheeted, I am a little worried I will not be able to make any changes without cutting a hatch or two in the botoom, fixing/replacing to try to make smoother action. THe original owner I bought it form , said that the carbon fiber tubes in the original DEPS setup were no longer available and the tubes he used for the pushrods are clear plastic. I intend on using a high quality digital servo to drive, but I hope it could support minor elevator changes that I am sure will be needed. An additional concern is that the DEPS pushrods exit the rear fuse leaving what appears to be a significant run of unsupported tube to the anticipated elevator hook up - wondering about the flex here as well. I appreciate your expeience and guidence here - I am reading the assembly manual to learn more as fast as I can

As for the CDI, do you mean electronic ignition for the YS? - I have never heard of this, for a glow motor. I have a few ships that run GAS, but I will certianly look into the CDi given your suggestion. Is the 170 prone to stopping in flight, etc? - I fly YS 2 stroke Heli motors and love them. Never had a YS 4 stroke yet, although I have heard all the talk about them being either awesome of tempremental. I am going to send my 170 back to YS performance and have them give it new bearings, diaphram, etc. since it will be a while befoer I get the VF3 ready, and I beleive the 170 in my setup has been sitting for ~ 2 years

Also, sounds like Monocoat works on the entire ship! - glad to hear this. There are a few "retired" national level capable monocoaters in my club, I might attempt to bribe them to cover my VF3 for perhaps some computer help, begging, etc.

I really appreciate your help - I will be in touch again!

Joe F.



rcpattern -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/22/2010 10:27 PM)

Joe,

No, the YS 1.70DZ runs great, even on a glow plug. YS has developed an electronic ignition that still runs on glow fuel. It makes the engine much more efficient. It allows you to lean down the needles and uses more fuel. You should get comfortable 300 flights before you will need to do a rebuild on the DZ. I would recommend that you be very selective in fuels. The Cool Power ones seem to work the best. I personally run this, and that is also what Richard at YS will recommend.

I am at about 60% the fuel consumption since I switched over to the CDI, which is definitely a major savings on the 30% fuel.

Arch



swlarcham -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/23/2010 1:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slipkid

(1)In my question about the DEPS, I guess my main concerin at the moment is the required force to move the currently installed setp back and forth ( carbon tubes not attacehd at Elevator end, but are connected to ball link at fuse, ready to take attachment to servo in carbon servo tray.

(2)THe original owner I bought it form , said that the carbon fiber tubes in the original DEPS setup were no longer available and the tubes he used for the pushrods are clear plastic. I intend on using a high quality digital servo to drive, but I hope it could support minor elevator changes that I am sure will be needed.

(3)An additional concern is that the DEPS pushrods exit the rear fuse leaving what appears to be a significant run of unsupported tube to the anticipated elevator hook up - wondering about the flex here as well. I appreciate your expeience and guidence here - I am reading the assembly manual to learn more as fast as I can


Joe F.


Joe
If I could jump in here, I am concluding from your post that the DEPS has a problem with the amout of force to move the rods inside the sheaths, CORRECT ?
- a couple of questions & possible suggestions. I numbered your quote to address them in order 1 2 3

#1 A properly installed DEPS should NOT require much force to move the pushrod. A really "good" install will be so free that the weight of the elevator will make it drop when you turn the system off ( that's pretty low resistance)
We need more info on the DEPS install , as they can be done a couple of different ways, to help you out with this problem.
Is it on a crutch with thread wrapped around the sheathing. If so read back a few posts - more than one person has wrapped the thread too tightly and caused extra friction ( NOT GOOD)
If it's installed differently and the sheathing is anchored but the pushrod is too big in diameter - carefully measure the size of the carbon pushrods and purchase replacement rods slightly smaller. Simple to slide the original rods out and slide the smaller ones in & it should free up. CST cstsales will have the size rods you need.

#2 Well it looks like I sorta addresed #2 above SORRY [;)]

#3 I've seen people add a wooden crutch about 1/2 way between the exit hole & the end of the rod to prevent flex. It doesn't take much in size , will hardly be noticeable but well worth it.

A properly installed and supported DEPS system is just so SOLID and smooth I'd hate for you to abandon one that's already in the plane when it might be easily fixed.

Now the debate over DEPS versus servos in the tail is not worth discussing here - It's been hashed out elsewhere. I feel it is a personal taste type thing. I've flown both and I'll do DEPS any time I can from now own.



handglider -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/23/2010 1:10 AM)

Sounds like you have a problem with the deps You might need to cut it out and reinstall it. You don't want any binding.

Twin elevator servos Are not the best option if your going to paint the fuse, you will be tail heavy.

It's not a big deal to reinstall the dels while it's in the bones, just take your time.

The plane was designed around the ys 170, really it's the best ic option for the magic

look back on this thread where I retro fitted a deps in my bm



swlarcham -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/23/2010 1:13 AM)

Sorry Dean
Looks like I almost posted on top of you.
Great advice I concur wholheartedly.
I LOVE the DEPS in my Black Magic - just wish I could take credit for the build[:D] BUt I gotta give George Miller(lchelilover) that honor.

Joe listen to Dean he knows what he's talking about
Eddie



slipkid -> RE: Black Magic VF3 Build Thread (1/23/2010 3:33 AM)

HI Swlarcham and Handglider
First off, thank you both for posting and your suggestions. I will look in more detail on the DEPS ( I am new to DEPS, not having done one before - usually dual elevator servose in the back, or a single pushrod going to a u connector )

As I said, compared to my Heli tail pushrod setups, there is just too much friction there for my liking. I think the last owner actually tried already to replace, as ther are two cutouts in the rear that have been sheeted over again - I think he still did not get it right. I wish I had a macro lens for my camera, I would take a few photos. I am reading the asembly manual tonight ( just bought the ship today and can harldy beleive I got a to notch pattern ship!) and will see what it says about the DEPS - I am new to pattern and am trusting the voices (such as both of you) to guide me here. Looks like a good setup, I will look for sources of friction and report back this weekend as I poke around a bit more

I am in the middle of getting a scale ship ready to finish, then the workbench gets cleared for the Black Magic

BTW, have you guys got any opinions on painting vs. covering? - I have painted a few scale ships already, so I am not afraid of it, but I would think Ultracote would be considerablt lighter at the risk of not protecting the delicate lightweight balsa on the wings and fuse

I appreciate all your help - I will be asking frequently when I get her on the bench!

Thanks again,

Joe F.



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