RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/16/2007 9:32:57 PM

13BRV3

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: Navarre, FL, USA
Status: offline

It sure is quiet here

Seriously, I can wait. I won't enjoy it, but I CAN wait

Rusty

(in reply to Dirk Schooner)

Post #: 26

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/16/2007 10:50:04 PM

Old Man Mike

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 13BRV3

It sure is quiet here

Seriously, I can wait. I won't enjoy it, but I CAN wait

Rusty

You won't have to wait long. Last parts arrived today. I will do the final conversion in a few hours and will post the results in the early morning hours. I have the parts list, schematic and pictures ready for posting. I need to write up details on the assembly process but those interested will be able to see the design and order parts if they wish.

Mike

(in reply to 13BRV3)

Post #: 27

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/16/2007 11:59:25 PM

13BRV3

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: Navarre, FL, USA
Status: offline

Outstanding news Mike. For some silly reason, I've been out in the garage this afternoon (cooking my brain) looking at the board. I was just about to go out and get my scope from the van to take a look at the gate signal on the MOSFETs, but it will be a lot easier to just wait for your next post

Maybe I'll give my neighbors a thrill, and (finally) cut my grass instead

Regardless of the outcome, thanks for all your work on this.
Rusty

< Message edited by 13BRV3 -- 8/17/2007 12:31:06 AM >

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 28

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/17/2007 10:54:56 AM

Old Man Mike

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

All four motors have been converted.

Here is a video showing the Brushless DF flying with a 21 oz payload:

Brushless 21 oz flight

This all took a little longer than I expected so I did not finish up the documentation. Here is a start showing the Parts List and the most difficult part of the conversion - building a little circuit board for the optical isolators:

Documentation RevA

(hope the above Powerpoint format will work for everyone)

You should be able to click on the supplier name in the parts list and it will take you right to the part. Unfortunately I see the motors are already out of stock so you might have to look around for other suppliers. Also, I added five additional 0.22 caps that are shown in the pwb layout but have not yet been added to the schematic.

I'm dead tired and will start working an updated package with much more detail tomorrow.

Mike

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 29

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/17/2007 2:21:21 PM

13BRV3

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: Navarre, FL, USA
Status: offline

Looks great so far Mike

I guess you've earned some sleep

I'll hold my questions until you get the documentation closer to being finished, since that will probably answer most of them.

Thanks,
Rusty

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 30

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/17/2007 2:42:02 PM

Dirk Schooner

Posts: 44
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: HullYorkshire, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline

WOW!!! Amazing, top work, you deserve some sort of award for this project.

Gives the old DF a new lease of life.

One thing I can imagine though is power drain, I imagine much bigger battery (looks like a TP 1320 on there) is needed for the motors and this sort of weight for any reasonable time, I will wait until you have some more flight tests and some sleep.

Thanks so much for this.

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 31

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 12:55:19 AM

Old Man Mike

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

All four motors have been converted.

Here is a video showing the Brushless DF flying with a 21 oz payload:

Brushless 21 oz flight

This all took a little longer than I expected so I did not finish up the documentation. Here is a start showing the Parts List and the most difficult part of the conversion - building a little circuit board for the optical isolators:

Documentation RevA

(hope the above Powerpoint format will work for everyone)

You should be able to click on the supplier name in the parts list and it will take you right to the part. Unfortunately I see the motors are already out of stock so you might have to look around for other suppliers. Also, I added five additional 0.22 caps that are shown in the pwb layout but have not yet been added to the schematic.

I'm dead tired and will start working an updated package with much more detail tomorrow.

Mike

Thanks for the kind words.

Dirk: This conversion does not require a larger battery but it might be worth considering for even longer flying time. The motors were picked so that current draw is close to the original motors. Since brushless motors are more efficient, the same amount of current can provide greater lifting or longer flying time. At max throttle, the avg current is about 33% higher (along with higher thrust) so the fuse has to be changed from a 10 amp to a 15 amp. With my normal camera payload of 7oz, I expect to get longer flying times since the brushless motors should be loafing along at about 1/3 total capacity.

I flew it outside (without a payload) this evening in 5 to 10 mph winds just to get an idea how long the standard 1320 mah battery would last. Even with the wind, I could tell it was at least as smooth and stable as the old brushed motors. It flew for aprox 15 mins before the reduced throttle mode kicked in. The HD brushed motors typically lasted around 10 mins. At the end of the flight, the brushless motors were just luke warm.

I am adding the additional documentation as I complete it. Here is an update which now includes the block diagram showing the interface connections:

Updated Documentation RevD

Is this powerpoint formating working OK? I've started adding notes below each slide which I hope will help answer questions. I use a wide screen display so I'm not sure how well this style works with smaller displays.

Mike

< Message edited by Old Man Mike -- 8/18/2007 10:41:54 AM >

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 32

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 2:23:24 AM

13BRV3

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: Navarre, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
Is this powerpoint formating working OK? I've started adding notes below each slide which I hope will help answer questions. I use a wide screen display so I'm not sure how well this style works with smaller displays.

Mike

Hi Mike,

First, the powerpoint type page is working fine for me, even with my monitor in portrait mode.

The block diagram really clears things up, and it appears you've done a clever job of making this all work. I also think it's a very reasonable approach to extra power, basically using the power that's already available more efficiently.

Do I see a Berg receiver there? Any idea where to pick off the throttle signal for a non-Berg board?

Keep up the good work

Cheers,
Rusty

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 33

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 5:55:14 AM

Sky High

Posts: 1511
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Status: offline

Even though I don't understand schematics, it is great achievement. Could you post some close up pictures of the new components on the airframe? I just want to see what the wiring and connections look like even though I couldn't replicate any of it with my limited knowledge.

_____________________________

Up there, you don't have time to think, if you think, you're dead!
Never mess with a pilot having more rotors than you!

(in reply to 13BRV3)

Post #: 34

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 6:38:51 AM

Old Man Mike

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

Hi Sky,

Take a look at the RevC package. I guess I'll just keep editing my earlier post with the updated revision rather than making new posts.

Mike

(in reply to Sky High)

Post #: 35

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 8:13:03 AM

Nicoleto

Posts: 64
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: BogotaCund, COLOMBIA
Status: offline

Hi Mike, congratulations you’ve made an excellent job. I still have a question. Does this conversion works with the old integrated DF Boards? (The ones that have the RX integrated to the board).

Thanks for your help

Regards
Nick

_____________________________

8500 feet closer to the stars!!!

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 36

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 8:24:38 AM

Old Man Mike

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicoleto

Hi Mike, congratulations you’ve made an excellent job. I still have a question. Does this conversion works with the old integrated DF Boards? (The ones that have the RX integrated to the board).

Thanks for your help

Regards
Nick

Thanks Nick,

I see no reason why it would not work with the older DF boards using the integrated receiver. The only challenge would be to find the line carrying the PPM throttle signal so that you could tap it and feed it to the optical isolator board. Someone with a older board and an oscilloscope should be able to probe around and find the signal. You can do this without arming the DF since the signal is there anytime the power switch is on and the transmitter is transmitting. The signal will be a simple 1ms pulse with a low duty cycle that varies in width as the throttle is increase. By the way, here is GREAT Oscilloscope which plugs into your PC via the USB Port:

USB Oscilloscope

Mike

(in reply to Nicoleto)

Post #: 37

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/18/2007 4:09:33 PM

13BRV3

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: Navarre, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

I see no reason why it would not work with the older DF boards using the integrated receiver. The only challenge would be to find the line carrying the PPM throttle signal so that you could tap it and feed it to the optical isolator board. Someone with a older board and an oscilloscope should be able to probe around and find the signal. You can do this without arming the DF since the signal is there anytime the power switch is on and the transmitter is transmitting. The signal will be a simple 1ms pulse with a low duty cycle that varies in width as the throttle is increase. By the way, here is GREAT Oscilloscope which plugs into your PC via the USB Port:

USB Oscilloscope

Mike

Hi Mike,

Very cool, and cheap scope. If my employer didn't already supply me with a nice scope, I'd sure think about buying one of those.

As for the throttle signal location on the older DF boards, I'll look for that this weekend. I already had the scope on it yesterday looking at the gate signals to the hexfets. Unfortunately, the conversion required to use that the gate signals would be harder than your idea.

If anyone here has a really good understanding of these brushless motors, are there other good options available? The Feigao seems perfect, and the price is right, but I wonder about availability.

Cheers,
Rusty (trying to resist checking the DF now)

(in reply to Old Man Mike)

Post #: 38