RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/19/2007 2:06 PM

msarid

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From: petah tikva, ISRAEL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

This is one of my next ptoject. frame Dia. 30" motors Himax 2808-0860 10x4.5 prop And 2mm fiberglass plate
(Jim you sow it first )I will inform as soon i will make the next step.[image][/image]

have a nice day
Moti

PS: Frame made fom square 10x10mm aluminum, fit exactly the motor mount.

Nike ,Rusty

I install all the brushless mod part on the big frame dut i have a problem front and rear motor work OK but left and right do not spin
and the 30 ohm resistor geting warm imediatly and have to diconnect the power.
Please advice
Moti

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/19/2007 7:14 PM

Old Man Mike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

This is one of my next ptoject. frame Dia. 30" motors Himax 2808-0860 10x4.5 prop And 2mm fiberglass plate
(Jim you sow it first )I will inform as soon i will make the next step.[image][/image]

have a nice day
Moti

PS: Frame made fom square 10x10mm aluminum, fit exactly the motor mount.

ike ,Rusty

I install all the brushless mod part on the big frame dut i have a problem front and rear motor work OK but left and right do not spin
and the 30 ohm resistor geting warm imediatly and have to diconnect the power.
Please advice
Moti

You have the two motor wires coming out of the fiber glass arm reversed for the left and right motors. The black wire wire should go to the resistor for the left and right motors (that black wire went to the red ESC for the front and rear)

You should be flying soon!

Mike

< Message edited by Old Man Mike -- 9/19/2007 11:04 PM >

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/19/2007 8:19 PM

msarid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

This is one of my next ptoject. frame Dia. 30" motors Himax 2808-0860 10x4.5 prop And 2mm fiberglass plate
(Jim you sow it first )I will inform as soon i will make the next step.[image][/image]

have a nice day
Moti

PS: Frame made fom square 10x10mm aluminum, fit exactly the motor mount.

ike ,Rusty

I install all the brushless mod part on the big frame dut i have a problem front and rear motor work OK but left and right do not spin
and the 30 ohm resistor geting warm imediatly and have to diconnect the power.
Please advice
Moti

You have the two motor wires comming out of the fiber glass arm reversed for the left and right motors. The black wire wire should go to the resistor for the left and right motors (that black wire went to the red ESC for the front and rear)

You should be flying soon!

Mike

Mike,Thanks, I will do that tommorw morning (our time)
BTW,maybe this is the reason for burning the 15A fuse???
Moti

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/19/2007 11:11 PM

Old Man Mike

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Yes, the fuse would blow if you tried to apply throttle because the ESC module would be wired backwards and would probably draw a lot of current. I hope you did not damage it with the reversed wiring.

Mike

< Message edited by Old Man Mike -- 9/20/2007 5:15 AM >

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/20/2007 4:44 AM

Blackdragan

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Mike,

Here is a picture of my brushless converted Draganflyer using the OptoIsolators from Medusa Research www.medusaproducts.com/Opto/opto001.htm along with a custom made 4 to 1 cable from the same company. The cable cost $12.95 and can be obtained by contacting Jeff Little from Medusa.

My converted Draganflyer is much more powerful then the original and is very smooth and stable when flying. I highly recommend making this conversion to everyone!

Thanks,

John

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/20/2007 5:38 AM

Old Man Mike

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John,

That is a very clean looking conversion. Congrats on being the third member of the DF Brushless club!

It is also very good that the Medusa OptoIsolators have now been proven to work. This should be a good solution for those that did not want to build one from scratch. At just over $80 for the four isolators and custom cable, it is not a bad trade off to my $20 design which requires the build time. Maybe Medusa will consider a package deal of four isolators and the custom cable at a reduced cost if there is enough interest. If you want, tell them that we will include them as a recommended source in the parts list in return for a lower package price.

Mike

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/20/2007 6:40 AM

Blackdragan

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quote:

Maybe Medusa will consider a package deal of four isolators and the custom cable at a reduced cost if there is enough interest. If you want, tell them that we will include them as a recommended source in the parts list in return for a lower package price.

Mike

Mike,

I sent a message to Jeff at Medusa Research regarding a reduced price for the the 4 isolators and the custom 4 to 1 cable. I will let you know his response.

Thanks,

John

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/20/2007 12:58 PM

msarid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

This is one of my next ptoject. frame Dia. 30" motors Himax 2808-0860 10x4.5 prop And 2mm fiberglass plate
(Jim you sow it first )I will inform as soon i will make the next step.[image][/image]

have a nice day
Moti

PS: Frame made fom square 10x10mm aluminum, fit exactly the motor mount.

ike ,Rusty

I install all the brushless mod part on the big frame dut i have a problem front and rear motor work OK but left and right do not spin
and the 30 ohm resistor geting warm imediatly and have to diconnect the power.
Please advice
Moti

You have the two motor wires comming out of the fiber glass arm reversed for the left and right motors. The black wire wire should go to the resistor for the left and right motors (that black wire went to the red ESC for the front and rear)

You should be flying soon!

Mike

Mike,Thanks, I will do that tommorw morning (our time)
BTW,maybe this is the reason for burning the 15A fuse???
Moti

Hi
I test today the 31" frame and it hover very stable but it react slowly compare to original size. so maye the frame should cut down to ???????? The frame is a little flexible and it tend to bent in hard landing.also i have to cut the frame legs because they are too long and could bent also in hard landing
Himax 2808-0860
prop 9x4.5(made from 10X4.5)
15A total
5000 RPM 70% Throttle
10.1V
2100 20C
I did not open the throttle more because i did not want to blow the fuse.(I burn one when it arrived to 17.5A)
So the "big" question is:what is the best frame diameter that it coud be big enough and the control reaction?

Please advice
Moti

< Message edited by msarid -- 9/20/2007 1:54 PM >

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/20/2007 10:44 PM

Nicoleto

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Hi Moti, I believe the DF is designed to handle frames of about 540mm in diameter. So if you increase the frame’s diameter to much, the helicopter will start to react very slowly and erratically. My guess is that doing some changes in the software would allow the DF to use bigger frames. The problem is that this software is not available to the public.

This is very similar to what happens with the UAVP and Mikrokopter projects. However those projects are open-source and the electronics can be reprogrammed by the final user therefore one can use any type of frame.

Regards
Nick

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 2:47 AM

13BRV3

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Well done John and Moti. Good to see another couple BL conversions flying

As for the flying qualities of the different sized frames, I haven't come to a final conclusion on that, because I need to spend more time flying both sizes back to back. Outside, with ti on, I would say the larger DF is certainly more stable. Oddly though, when flying inside, the smaller one is more stable. I'm still working on my theory of how that can be. I wonder if the gyro response rate is fairly critical to the size of the frame, but perhaps ti works fast enough to overcome the incorrect timing. I've just gotta do more testing and thinking about this, maybe when I'm not quite so sleep deprived.

I tested the TowerPro 2410-09 motor today, and it is certainly a little better than the 2410-08 for our needs, but not by as much as I would have thought. The varying voltage of the packs makes direct comparisons of current somewhat misleading, so wattage is a better unit of measure. I'm REALLY resisting the temptation to set up my big power supply so I can control the voltage...

Anyway, here's what I have for both motors:

TowerPro 2410-08, 3S 2000 LiPo, EPP 10x4.5 prop
5000 rpm = 5.0A, 11.4V, 57W
6600 rpm= 12.1A, 11.0V, 133W (max throttle)
Max lift on superfly 5lb 1oz at 36A!

TowerPro 2410-09, 3S 2000 LiPo, EPP 10x4.5 prop (less cogging than -08 motor)
5000 rpm = 4.5A, 12V, 54W
6600 rpm= 11.1A, 11.6V, 129W (max throttle)

As you can see, the -09 motor turns the same max RPM as the -08, though the battery was stronger on the -09 test. The 5000 rpm wattage measurement should be accurate, and there really isn't much difference in power between the two. Still, the -09 is probably better, and it's a few bucks cheaper as well, so that's what I'll go with from now on.

I also did some of Mike's 30 oz hover tests. I'll past some graphs. This is a comparison of the Feigao conversion to the outrunner 2410-08 conversion, and the Feigao seems to win this contest by a few watts. I suspect the 2410-09 motor will be almost exactly the same as the Feigao.

I tried to video some of the hovering as well, with the idea of measuring the sound volume. I'm not going to get around to looking at the video tonight though, and it may not have come out that well anyway.

Cheers,
Rusty

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 5:49 AM

msarid

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Hi Rusty
What is the Max. A that the board can handle? and how the 15A fuse can hold 36A???? or maybe I mised something !!!!!!.
Have a nice weekend

Moti

< Message edited by msarid -- 9/21/2007 6:21 AM >

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 11:01 AM

Old Man Mike

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Rusty,

Thanks for those charts - it helps a data addict like me. And those 2410-09 motors look like a great value. I was impressed enough to order a half dozen this morning so that I can also play with a larger frame design.

(By the way, I finally blew a 15 amp fuse while doing a max trottle lift using the 12" blades. It took about 1 second at 22 amps. I cannot blow a 15 amp fuse with 11" blades and the max of 16.8 amps)

Moti,

About the slow reaction time - have you tried changing the transmitter EXP function so that it takes less movement of the joystick? Also, are you flying in Active or Training mode?

Mike

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 3:10 PM

msarid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

Rusty,

Thanks for those charts - it helps a data addict like me. And those 2410-09 motors look like a great value. I was impressed enough to order a half dozen this morning so that I can also play with a larger frame design.

(By the way, I finally blew a 15 amp fuse while doing a max trottle lift using the 12" blades. It took about 1 second at 22 amps. I cannot blow a 15 amp fuse with 11" blades and the max of 16.8 amps)

Moti,

About the slow reaction time - have you tried changing the transmitter EXP function so that it takes less movement of the joystick? Also, are you flying in Active or Training mode?

Mike

Hi
I flew With zero EXPO. a nd also adjust the ATV to the max(140%)change was a little better but again it is very hard to control it
The solution like Nick said is the software change.
about motor the max A of each motor should not more then 4A otherwise the fuse will blow. correct me if I am wrong?

Moti

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 4:19 PM

13BRV3

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ORIGINAL: msarid

Hi Rusty
What is the Max. A that the board can handle? and how the 15A fuse can hold 36A???? or maybe I mised something !!!!!!.
Have a nice weekend

Moti

Hi Moti,

We really can't know what the limit of the board is until someone fries one, so let me know when you find out

I've looked at the specs on the hexfets, and I'm sure we're not stressing them at all. The connections, and skinny wires on the motor connector are probably the weak link.

As for my 36A, what you missed is that I ran the power directly from the battery cable to the ESCs, so the motor current doesn't go through the main fuse at all. I have separate fuses for each ESC, which come in handy if you need to reset one ESC without powering down the whole DF. I had to do that a couple times on one ESC this morning.

Cheers,
Rusty

(Edited to remove concerns about current through the switch)

< Message edited by 13BRV3 -- 9/22/2007 3:40 PM >

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 4:45 PM

13BRV3

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ORIGINAL: msarid
Hi
I flew With zero EXPO. a nd also adjust the ATV to the max(140%)change was a little better but again it is very hard to control it
The solution like Nick said is the software change.
Moti

I have the same settings as Moti, 140% EPA (end point adjustment, which I presume is the same as ATV?) I also have no expo. Another indoor and outdoor flight this morning confirmed that it's very hard to fly inside with ti off, but it flies great outside with ti on (overcast and only one LED). Since my eventual goal is stable, video (fun not profit), the larger frame may still work well for me.

I do agree that it seems to be slow to react. When I was first learning to fly the normal DF, I thought I'd make it easier by using dual rates to make it less sensitive. I found out real fast that the quick reaction is needed to be able to precisely control the DF in a small area. I'd have to say that the large frame on full rate flies about like the small frame on low rates.

On a follow-up note about the sound level of gears vs outrunners, I have to say this seems to be more of a perception than reality. The frequency is lower, and perhaps less annoying than with the gears, but according to my tests, the outrunners are actually 3db louder inside the garage. Outside, a few feet off the ground, the outrunners seem very quiet though, where I still hear lots of gear whining from the stock arrangement. The neighbors yippy little wiener dog agrees, because he barks at the gears, but not the outrunners. I wonder what size motors I'd need to carry him away...

Rusty

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 8:14 PM

msarid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 13BRV3

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

Hi Rusty
What is the Max. A that the board can handle? and how the 15A fuse can hold 36A???? or maybe I mised something !!!!!!.
Have a nice weekend

Moti

Hi Moti,

We really can't know what the limit of the board is until someone fries one, so let me know when you find out

I've looked at the specs on the hexfets, and I'm sure we're not stressing them at all. I would worry about that little power switch. I can't imagine the contacts on it are rated for much more than 15A, if even that. Remember, this board was originally made to have a 10A fuse. Another likely problem will be the connections at the main motor connector. Those are mighty small...

As for my 36A, what you missed is that I ran the power directly from the battery cable to the ESCs, so the motor current doesn't go through the main fuse at all. I have separate fuses for each ESC, which come in handy if you need to reset one ESC without powering down the whole DF. I had to do that a couple times on one ESC this morning.

Cheers,
Rusty

Hi Rusty
Undestand

, can you explain me how you yo connect the ESC to the Bat.?
BTW I tryd to use the Castlecreation Thunderbird 18 but it did not work properly, the motor did not start same time and did not keep the RPM steady.
I decide to "hang" the alum. frame and go back to the original CF frame so i order CF tubes and rods and make same Dia frame.
and install your sugested 2409-09 motors.
After your many test what is the better combination mik's setup or yours if you ignor the gear noise problem.
After many test on other projects I think that we have to go to CF frame because they are more flexible and suffer more impact,but they are more fregile.the problem with the alum. frame is that they are bent in hard landing and it difficult to go back to the original contur. (Please forgive me for my English mistakes)

Again, have a great weekend
Moti

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/21/2007 9:47 PM

Heliman

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Hey Rusty,

Do you have a link for where you get the EPP 10x4.5 props from?

So how do you think those 2409-09 motors and 10X4.5 props will do on a original size DF frame not trying to carry 5 lbs. of weight?

I may use this setup to carry no more than a 3 cell 2100 battery and maybe a small camera later but for now just the extra weight of the larger battery for just sporting around.

Do you think this will work ok for that as I may order the parts tonight.

Randy

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 12:08 AM

Blackdragan

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quote:

(By the way, I finally blew a 15 amp fuse while doing a max trottle lift using the 12" blades. It took about 1 second at 22 amps. I cannot blow a 15 amp fuse with 11" blades and the max of 16.8 amps)

Mike,

Is this something to be concerned about if you go to full throttle for more then 1 second when flying with the 12" blades? What was the weight of your Draganflyer?

Thanks,

John

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 1:04 AM

Old Man Mike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackdragan

quote:

(By the way, I finally blew a 15 amp fuse while doing a max trottle lift using the 12" blades. It took about 1 second at 22 amps. I cannot blow a 15 amp fuse with 11" blades and the max of 16.8 amps)

Mike,

Is this something to be concerned about if you go to full throttle for more then 1 second when flying with the 12" blades? What was the weight of your Draganflyer?

Thanks,

John

If you are worried about it, just use a 20 amp fuse instead of the 15. I was doing an absolute stress test using a fully charged 2100 mAh battery with the DF lifting 60 ounces! My normal flying weight with a camera, foam mount, Seagull recorder & transmitter plus a GPS module is one half that amount (30 oz). Although I mostly fly with the 11" blades, I've made many flights with the 12" blades and have never blown the 15 amp fuse except for this extreme test with the DF strapped down. If you were to apply full throttle for 1 second, the DF would shoot up like a rocket. Still, it might be a good idea to go to the 20 amp fuse with 12" blades.

Mike

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 1:22 AM

Old Man Mike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 13BRV3

I have the same settings as Moti, 140% EPA (end point adjustment, which I presume is the same as ATV?) I also have no expo. Another indoor and outdoor flight this morning confirmed that it's very hard to fly inside with ti off, but it flies great outside with ti on (overcast and only one LED). Since my eventual goal is stable, video (fun not profit), the larger frame may still work well for me.

I do agree that it seems to be slow to react. When I was first learning to fly the normal DF, I thought I'd make it easier by using dual rates to make it less sensitive. I found out real fast that the quick reaction is needed to be able to precisely control the DF in a small area. I'd have to say that the large frame on full rate flies about like the small frame on low rates.

On a follow-up note about the sound level of gears vs outrunners, I have to say this seems to be more of a perception than reality. The frequency is lower, and perhaps less annoying than with the gears, but according to my tests, the outrunners are actually 3db louder inside the garage. Outside, a few feet off the ground, the outrunners seem very quiet though, where I still hear lots of gear whining from the stock arrangement. The neighbors yippy little wiener dog agrees, because he barks at the gears, but not the outrunners. I wonder what size motors I'd need to carry him away...

Rusty

Interesting feedback on the larger frame implementation. I find the responsiveness of the original frame size with the brushless conversion equal or better than the brushmotors. I almost aways fly without EXP to keep the quick response. Like Rusty says, the faster response seems to offer much more stable hovering in a small area. I am concerned if the larger frame is more difficult to fly with TI off. And how much worse does it get with a heavy payload? With the 30 ounce flying weight, I have no problem keeping it hovering in my 10' x 10' test area until the battery is depleted. Is this a problem with the larger frame system or do you think it is the use of the outrunner motors? Maybe there is some sort of metric we could come up with to test and compare the stability.

Mike

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 3:40 AM

13BRV3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

Undestand , can you explain me how you yo connect the ESC to the Bat.?

All of my batteries (except for the stock DF batteries) have Deans connectors. Rather than changing the connector on the DF board, I made a short cable that has a Deans plug on one end, and the DF style plug on the other. For this particular BL conversion, I connected the power for the ESC, and the ground for the resistors to that adapter cable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

After your many test what is the better combination mik's setup or yours if you ignor the gear noise problem.

"Better" might be a bit hard to say. For all practical purposes, I think there will be almost no difference in performance or weight between the Feigao and TowerPro setups. The biggest difference is cost. The TowerPro motors are currently $6.39, versus about $25 for the Feigao. The Feigao needs a pinion gear, and adapter plate, along with the original gear, and bearings. The stock props are $25, rather than $8 as well. At one point, Mike added the cost of building a BL DF from scratch, and I'd imaging that cost would drop about $100 if using the TowerPro.

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

After many test on other projects I think that we have to go to CF frame because they are more flexible and suffer more impact,but they are more fregile.the problem with the alum. frame is that they are bent in hard landing and it difficult to go back to the original contur.

I've thought about this as well. The frames that the Germans sell are expensive, but beautiful. I'd be afraid to fly one

quote:

ORIGINAL: msarid

(Please forgive me for my English mistakes)

quote]

No need Moti. You are communicating just fine. Heck, your English is probably better than a large portion of the people who live here.

Cheers,
Rusty

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 3:54 AM

13BRV3

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ORIGINAL: Heliman

Do you have a link for where you get the EPP 10x4.5 props from?

Hi Randy,

I've been ordering them from MPI: http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-29a.html I'm sure they're available other places as well, but I've had such good luck with MPI orders that I've stuck with them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heliman

So how do you think those 2409-09 motors and 10X4.5 props will do on a original size DF frame not trying to carry 5 lbs. of weight?

I tried this today, just for you

I haven't done any actual data collection, but I replaced the Feigao motors with the 2410-09 (not 2409-09 as your post says). I hovered it around in the garage, and it seems to fly just the same as the Feigao conversion to me. I worry a bit about the props being in the field of view of the ti sensors, but it hasn't bothered the larger version of the DF that I've been flying, so I think this will be fine as well. I hope to do more testing tomorrow, but the weather is going to be foul due to the tropical storm wannabee that just came onshore.

Rusty

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 3:59 AM

13BRV3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
I find the responsiveness of the original frame size with the brushless conversion equal or better than the brushmotors.

Same here Mike.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

With the 30 ounce flying weight, I have no problem keeping it hovering in my 10' x 10' test area until the battery is depleted. Is this a problem with the larger frame system or do you think it is the use of the outrunner motors?

After this morning's exercise, I was also wondering if the outrunners had some part in the instability. I was thinking that maybe the gearing advantage let the Feigao's change speeds more rapidly. Now that I've tested the normal size DF with the outrunners, I can say that the problem is the frame size.

Attached are some pics, mostly showing the latest mount for the outrunners. This adds quite a bit of stiffness to the original motor mounts, and I'm thinking the center of the bottom plates would make a good place to attach legs.

Rusty

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 6:12 AM

Heliman

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Rusty,

All I can find on thier site is a EPP1045 counter rotating pair, wouldn't I need a pair of each?

Did you notice and problems while flying the original size with the Ti on as you mentioned?

Randy

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RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 9/22/2007 8:54 AM

Old Man Mike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 13BRV3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heliman

Do you have a link for where you get the EPP 10x4.5 props from?

Hi Randy,

I've been ordering them from MPI: http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-29a.html I'm sure they're available other places as well, but I've had such good luck with MPI orders that I've stuck with them.

Rusty

Randy,

Before I make the order for the EPP 10x4.5 props, did you buy any additional hardward for mounting the props to the outrunner motors. When I was playing with other props, I had quite a time getting the counter rotating props to stay on the motor shaft with the GWS type hardware. I would like to add any additional required hardware (or anything else you think useful for experimenting with the outrunners) to the order.

Mike

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