SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion  
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All Forums >> RC Helicopters >> Draganfly Innovations Products >> SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
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SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 10:26:33 AM   
Old Man Mike


 

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I am happy to report a successful Brushless motor conversion for the Draganflyer. The controller board was not modified and I was able to use a standard ESC and Brushless motor combination with a total cost of $30. Along with a few additional components, total cost to convert all four motors will be aprox $230.

As a demonstration of stability, I replaced just the rear motor and flew the DF with three brushed motors and the one brushless motor. Here is a short video showing the conversion:

Brushless Configuration

And here is the demonstration flight:

Brushless Flight

This was my first flight and the only thing different about flying it was that the Brushless Motor starts spinning earlier and stops spinning later.

Tomorrow I will make a quick flight in TI mode to verify that it works with the conversion. I'm fairly certain there will be no problem.

The brushless motors are much more powerful than the brushed motor so I expect to be able to add at least 1/2 pound of payload capability. I have to be careful with this mixed configuration not to take the throttle much above the half way point because the brushless motor begins to overpower the other motors. With a higher power battery, I suspect I could get up to a pound more payload.

And yes, I will publish the design. I want to do a bit more tweaking and change out the other three motors. Plus, I want to keep the tease going a little longer since so many people (including Mike Dammar at Spectro) had said how difficult this would be.

Mike


< Message edited by Old Man Mike -- 8/9/2007 5:58:05 PM >
       Post #: 1

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 2:30:16 PM   
13BRV3


 

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: Navarre, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

And yes, I will publish the design. I want to do a bit more tweaking and change out the other three motors. Plus, I want to keep the tease going a little longer since so many people (including Mike Dammar at Spectro) had said how difficult this would be.

Mike



Wow, tease is right

Seriously Mike, this is GREAT news, and I can't wait to hear more. Good luck with the conversion and testing.

Rusty


(in reply to Old Man Mike)
       Post #: 2

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 2:38:29 PM   
msarid


 

Posts: 87
Joined: 5/21/2003
From: petah tikva, ISRAEL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 13BRV3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

And yes, I will publish the design. I want to do a bit more tweaking and change out the other three motors. Plus, I want to keep the tease going a little longer since so many people (including Mike Dammar at Spectro) had said how difficult this would be.

Mike



Wow, tease is right

Seriously Mike, this is GREAT news, and I can't wait to hear more. Good luck with the conversion and testing.

Rusty



Mike
You are the KING of the DF keep on going
Moti

(in reply to 13BRV3)
       Post #: 3

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 3:49:24 PM   
BB_DF



Posts: 273
Joined: 4/19/2007
From: Eagle, ID, USA
Status: offline 		Congratulations, Mike, that's the Holy Grail of DF hackers! I'll convert mine for sure - maybe it will reduce the electrical noise and help with the drop-out problem. I like the way the BL motor sounds - completely different. The Q4's sound like a swarm of angry bees. BTW I think you only need to set level in Ti mode. I never set it in normal mode and it files fine.

Cheers,
Bruce

(in reply to Old Man Mike)
       Post #: 4

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 4:21:35 PM   
VRNowhere


 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2007
From: Sacramento, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Great job! Please keep us posted.

I don't understand why Draganflyer designers haven't come up with something, since the X-UFO and other European quadrotors are brushless. I've been waiting for some annoucements from the DF guys, but I guess they have no incentive to upgrade their system - darn lack of competition...

(in reply to BB_DF)
       Post #: 5

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 7:31:24 PM   
Sky High



Posts: 1511
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Great job Mike even though I don't understand how or what you did! Why couldn't you use the existing motor wires? I am absolutely impressed as to how smoothly that brushless motor spins up and how quiet it sounds. Please post more video when all four brushless motors are installed as well as if there is a significant increase in flight time and weight capacity.

As far increased payload capacity, could the current flexible rotors handle a pound of weight without folding? You might have to upgrade to CF rotors with that kind of weight.

< Message edited by Sky High -- 8/4/2007 7:50:27 PM >

_____________________________

Up there, you don't have time to think, if you think, you're dead!
Never mess with a pilot having more rotors than you!

(in reply to VRNowhere)
       Post #: 6

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 9:51:26 PM   
Old Man Mike


 

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline 		Sky High: The ESC for the Brushless Motor has to be interfaced such that the fast response time from the DF controller is preserved when mixing the slower pulse information from the receiver. Dammar claimed that this would require a redesigned controller and a custom designed ESC. He said he thought it may be too expensive to market. I'm not sure that he is even working on a new design now but who knows?

About the rotor blades, Dammar told me that they have been tested up to 4 lbs so it looks like there is plenty of margin available.

BB_DF: Thanks for the tip on level setting. Makes sense.

Mike

(in reply to Sky High)
       Post #: 7

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 10:27:06 PM   
Sky High



Posts: 1511
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

... About the rotor blades, Dammar told me that they have been tested up to 4 lbs so it looks like there is plenty of margin available. ...

4 pounds?! Are we talking about the same rotors? I'm talking about the black composite and the clear ones you and Bruce are using. Now how do you reckon they were load tested for 4 pounds with a DF that can only lift less than a pound?

_____________________________

Up there, you don't have time to think, if you think, you're dead!
Never mess with a pilot having more rotors than you!

(in reply to Old Man Mike)
       Post #: 8

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 11:05:07 PM   
Old Man Mike


 

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sky High

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike

... About the rotor blades, Dammar told me that they have been tested up to 4 lbs so it looks like there is plenty of margin available. ...

4 pounds?! Are we talking about the same rotors? I'm talking about the black composite and the clear ones you and Bruce are using. Now how do you reckon they were load tested for 4 pounds with a DF that can only lift less than a pound?


Yep. That is what he said. I'm assuming he has a test setup to make thrust measurements and that it was not done on an actual DF. I also had to construct a test platform to measure thrust vs current vs rpm when testing candidate motors. I had considered changing the props but it is very difficult to find props which come in both right and left hand configuration.

Mike

(in reply to Sky High)
       Post #: 9

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/4/2007 11:32:18 PM   
Sky High



Posts: 1511
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Status: offline 		That would be a sight to see. I just can't see those flexible blades not coning up at least 45 degrees or more trying to lift that much weight.

_____________________________

Up there, you don't have time to think, if you think, you're dead!
Never mess with a pilot having more rotors than you!

(in reply to Old Man Mike)
       Post #: 10

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/5/2007 2:02:04 AM   
BB_DF



Posts: 273
Joined: 4/19/2007
From: Eagle, ID, USA
Status: offline 		By "four pounds" he must mean total lift., or one pound per blade. Otherwise he would be talking about 16 lbs of lifting power! So if a blade self destructs when it's stressed with a 1 lb load, then maybe you're looking at 1/3 - 1/2 lb max normal load per blade, or somewhere around 1 - 2 lbs lifting power for a quad the size of the DF. That's actually pretty good, really.

- Bruce

(in reply to Sky High)
       Post #: 11

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/5/2007 4:24:19 AM   
Sky High



Posts: 1511
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Well, if that's how it's determined, then it makes more sense. Zenon told me he has lifted a full drink can with a DF. However, lifting and successfully flying with excessive weight are two different things.

_____________________________

Up there, you don't have time to think, if you think, you're dead!
Never mess with a pilot having more rotors than you!

(in reply to BB_DF)
       Post #: 12

RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion - 8/6/2007 3:06:16 AM   
Old Man Mike


 

Posts: 267
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Huntertown, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I did some outdoor flying today with the brushless modified DF. I am amazed that the DF can fly so well with the mix of one brushless and three brushed motors. In fact, I was able to do a little acrobatics. Here is an axis spin (pirouette):

Brushless Spin

(I had a stationary video camera and used a post processing zoom so the video is not that great)

I also tested it in TI mode and that worked just fine:

Brushless TI

After the flights, the brushed motors were quite warm. The brushless motor was several times cooler.

I've ordered all the parts necessary to replace the other three brushed motors since it appears that this design will work. By the way, the motors are able to lift one pound EACH and that is within the constraints of the existing battery and controller. I have not yet tested at that level and will wait until I've converted all four motors before trying to lift any bricks (well, maybe something lighter than a brick).

By the way, I've been warned about people lurking in the forums to pick up ideas for reselling without permission or author credit. I'm not happy to hear that. My interest is in having an exchange of ideas with other DF enthusiasts and not just to be a source of income for anyone lurking in the forums and not contributing. Perhaps it would be best to provide the design information to a more limited group within the forum interested in experimenting with the approach. Not really sure what is best.

Mike


(in reply to Old Man Mike)