Glow Plug NOT shorting!!  
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Glow Plug NOT shorting!! - 8/12/2007 4:10:30 AM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Eric, I left you a couple of messages. Here is what was happening: on some starts when the ICS initiated "glow test" the EGT would DESCEND to zero and the rpm would be erratic. The ics would also lose its binding to the tx sometimes..............well, long story short, (no pun with the "short" whenever this would happen, I could pull the plug out, ground wire on the plug, not the turbine case, and the glow plug would glow bright orange and the egt and rpm readings would be correct. (all this without propane ofcourse!) I then would replace the glow plug in the turbine and the same symptoms would come back. Right now I have installed a new glow plug and not teased it out as far and it seems to be working repeatedly. Is there a known issue with a glowplug short? .....and.....is it possible if it is teased out too far, it is contacting the combustion chamber or something inside which is causing the short? I think I'm on the right track, I am really just trying to avoid sending this in with lubbock coming up next week!

James Smith

< Message edited by smitty1001 -- 8/23/2007 3:50:37 AM >

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 4:26:59 AM   
BluFox



Posts: 351
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: North Port, FL,
Status: offline 		Jim:

I am out of town until tomorrow late in the afternoon. Got away to do some maiden flights, sign off a newbie with his turbine waiver and just relax in 103 temps under a tent with a gentle breeze blowing.

If I understand your questions correctly, you have received a "Glow Bad" error message during start up and found nothing wrong with the Glow Plug. . .correct?

There have been several other reported cases of the same thing. If using JR equipment, simply colapse the antennae and move the Tx away from the area where the ECU is within the fuselage. Try to restart and I think you will find your issue is no more. If on the other hand, you are actually blowing plugs, go to the "Start /Info/ trns/ Run" screen then menu up under the "Start" until you get to glow plug value. Reduce by 3 points and try again. The optimum setting for the glow plug is that which is the lowest and the turbine still ignites the start gas during ramp.

The correct distance to pull the filament out is that of 1/8 inch. The element will not touch anything inside the can.

You can adjust glow plug value and start gas value. We established this program as each persons installation is different. For example, the length of the glow plug harness can vary as much as 24 inches or as little at 12. The longer the harness, the higher the value needs to be. This is also the case for different glow plugs. Our supplied McCoy MC9 glow plug requires a lower number than for example a 'Rossi #8.

I hope this helps. If you still encounter a problem, please call me after 1PM Sunday @ 041.468.1246

Best regards,
Eric Clapp
Jet Central Artes Turbines
Lifetime Warranty


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www.jetartes.com

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 4:36:47 AM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Eric......not blowing plugs, using 2.4 and its not really that close to the ecu, anyways....seems to be resolved at least for now - I'll let you know after tomorrow!!

P.S. Really close to ordering a 2nd Artes!!!!!!!!!! Do you have any bee's laying around??

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 10:09:10 AM   
Gaspar



Posts: 140
Joined: 6/10/2002
From: Arenys de Munt- Barcelona, SPAIN
Status: offline

The symptoms are pointing to the thermcouple, it may have lost its isolation with the engine case, I reccomend to replace it.

Gaspar


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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 10:31:05 AM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Gaspar,

Thanks for your help! Could that make the rpm reading erratic though? When you say "lost it's isolation" do you mean electrostatically/magnetically speaking, or that it is physically touching something it should not?

Eric,

How do I get a new thermocouple? and/or glow plug harness?
Is there any possibility that it is something internal with the ics?

I'll let you guys know what happens tomorrow!!

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 1:30:10 PM   
Gaspar



Posts: 140
Joined: 6/10/2002
From: Arenys de Munt- Barcelona, SPAIN
Status: offline 		The thermocouple is composed by twin very thin wires running inside a inconel tube (<1/16" ) that is what you see. These two wires are isolated from the external shield by a mineral material.

Sometimes if the thermocouple is bent to a too sharp angle or it is too pressed that make that the external tube press and touch the internal wires, then the isolation is lost.

As the engine case is conected to glow plug and the thermocouple body connected to the engine, when the glow plug is energized then some funny things can happen.

Just try to run the engine without the thermocouple touching to the engine body, if all goes OK, then it is clear that is a TC problem. And check the TC wires too, once I found a similar problem with a costumer that had the TC lead pressed under the engine strap.

GAspar

< Message edited by Gaspar -- 8/12/2007 1:32:11 PM >

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 4:23:44 PM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		INTERESTING !!! ...........and a little bit genius too!!!

umm.....when you say run it without it touching do you mean with the end out of the exhaust nozzle also?

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 4:35:55 PM   
Gaspar



Posts: 140
Joined: 6/10/2002
From: Arenys de Munt- Barcelona, SPAIN
Status: offline
Yes, any part of the metalic body of the TC should touch the turbine, you should hold /fix the TC in the airframe so that the tip of the TC sit in the exhaust flow so that it can measure the EGT. If the engine run well, then you will be sure that the problem is 100% TC related.

GAspar

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 5:59:48 PM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Got it, will advise.

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/12/2007 8:55:27 PM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		OK, Wow......um....did a start before I left the house to go to the field - no problems. Go.
t to the field, power up with the data terminal connected and I see:

1.) all these random characters before the bootup.
2.) Then it boots up normally "connecting, JF100-xxx," etc.
3.) Then it says "Incorrect Radio Setup" (or something like that)
4.) I re-learned TX
5.) I then proceeded with a regualr start
6.) I noticed right away that the starter voltage seemed week. (was hitting about 1.5k only)
7.) The ICS quickly read "Bad Start"
8.) I started thumbing through the settings and noticed that everything had been jumbled and/or changed
9.) Starting with the INFO Menu: it shows total run time as 6,553 minutes! It should be like 700-something. (the number of cycles is incorrect also, it says 50, I have like 60-something)
10.) The RUN menu: "Full-Power Speed" was set to 118k - now it is 00.000 "Idle Speed" = 00.000 "Stop Speed" = 00.000 Similar with the delays, and voltages
BY THE WAY................it now appears that the ICS is unlocked as I never had access to those menu options before
11.) Same in the "STARTUP" Menu - more options are revealed and the values are either 0 or way off what they should be.

It is obvious that I need to send it in, the whole installation I'm guessing!

Jet Rally this next weekend I may have to order a Bee - do you have any in stock Eric?

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/13/2007 12:35:38 AM   
FNIETO


 

Posts: 36
Joined: 8/18/2004
From: , MEXICO
Status: offline 		Hello Smitty1001
My guess is that some sort of short ciruit on the thermo coupler or on the wires of the RPM sensor caused damage to your ECU. Please contact Eric for instructions to return your engine to the factory so it can be fixed. I will check tomorrow morning at the factory if we have a demo engine that we can loan to you until yours is repaired so you can make it to your jet rally next weekend. I will let you know.
Sorry for the inconvenience
Best regards
Felipe
JetCentral

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/13/2007 5:05:46 PM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Felipe THANKS!!!! If you have a loaner Bee but not a Falcon that would be OK too as it is going in a baby boomer.

Eric, Do I send it to you and then you send it to the factory? PLease advise.

James Smith

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/13/2007 11:35:08 PM   
BluFox



Posts: 351
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: North Port, FL,
Status: offline 		Smitty:

As we discussed by telephone today. a new ECU is on its way to you. I do believe this will correct all issus. I am also reviewing all of Gaspars notes/recommendations. I do apologize for the inconvenience, but lets try the new ECu first then on to other remedies if necessary.

Best regards,
Eric Clapp
Jet Central Artes Turbines
Lifetime Warranty


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www.jetartes.com

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/14/2007 12:01:05 AM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Eric and Felipe,

Thank you so much for your generosity and prompt attention! I'll let you guys know as soon as I run it.

James Smith

P.S. The way you guys handled this is the very reason why I will be ordering my 2nd Artes very soon!!!!!!

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Own: Jet Central Falcon, 2 Super Bees!

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RE: Glow Plug shorting? - 8/16/2007 6:56:01 AM   
smitty1001



Posts: 587
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Ft. Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Eric,

Rec'd the ECU today.....installed, seems to fix the probs....will run tomorrow and ship the haywire ecu to you.

Thanks Eric, Gaspar and Felipe................. SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE SERVICE!!!!!!!!!

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