Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (Full Version)

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dickster -> Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 11:46:12 AM)

Hi,

We replaced the stock motors in our Stampede and Blackfoot and sure enough the modified motors (Chamelion and Money motors) have not lasted very long at all and now need rebuilding. I am not about to buy a lathe and get into all of that so we are now looking at brushless - if it is maintenance free!

We are looking for reliability in the drive train etc (the Blackfoot has run stock without fault for two years) so a mild brushless setup would be ok. We also run GP3300 6 cells and IB4200 7 cell max, not lipos.

What would you guys recommend?

Much appreciated.

Rich



happywing -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 11:59:48 AM)

Novak SS4300 or 5800. The 5800 would be faster a put a little strain on your drivetrain. You should be able to use the 4300 with no problems and it's got decent speed. With those batteries, don't even consider the Mamba Max.



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 12:09:24 PM)

Just checked, the ss4300 is discontinued at Tower.

Whats the reason for not using the Mamba? I just watched a video on youtube of a guy using MM5700 and GP3300's?

Thanks.



Access -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 12:15:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happywing
With those batteries, don't even consider the Mamba Max.

With the Mamba Max you can set the voltage cutoff to the nearest tenth of a volt. For batteries like that you just set it to 5.0 - 5.4V and it runs fine. The tradeoff is maximum acceleration and braking vs. runtime and battery/ESC/motor heat. I have done this often and fine-tuned that number so I am speaking from experience. You don't really lose any runtime b'cos NIMH discharge is pretty flat and you are not going to get any useful life past 0.9V / cell anyways. This setting also prevents the stuttering you may see on other ESCs when applying too much power or accelerating too hard.

With any brushless you should replace the plastic idler gear with the metal one, just to be on the safe side.

The only downside of the mamba is the time you have to spend fine-tuning it, whereas the Novak is just a 'drop-in-and-go' system. The mamba might not do well with the default parameter settings, it sometimes takes several runs to get all the parameters set for optimum performance. Ultimately though mamba will end up better, or more configurable; it has a 'punch control' parameter that you can set to 10 to take it easy on your drivetrain, etc.



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 1:26:31 PM)

Yep, I forgot to mention that I am also looking for good run times (so max performance not so important). We are only using them for bashing and at the moment our e-maxx is proving the most realiable - stock.

Thanks for the input.



brushlessboy16 -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 1:29:58 PM)

well your cells is what give you runtime.. u have that covered, if you want a mild system try the mamaba max 4600, very smooth and adjustable.[sm=thumbs_up.gif]



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 1:39:41 PM)

so the 4600 would give good performance and be kinder to the drive train? how does it compare to the 5700?

thanks



Takedown -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 2:24:50 PM)

IMO your best bet would be the traxxas VXL brushless system because of the fact that the motor has only 3500kv which is great for beginers. The vxl esc also has a training mode were you can set up the esc to only allow 1/2 power at full speed.
And it only costs $169.



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 2:35:22 PM)

I didn't know Traxxas bought these out! I can see a new Stampede on the horizon......and with metal gears.

I may just go for that setup, thanks.



Takedown -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 2:40:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dickster

I didn't know Traxxas bought these out! I can see a new Stampede on the horizon......and with metal gears.

I may just go for that setup, thanks.

Ya no problem.



Access -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 4:07:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Takedown

IMO your best bet would be the traxxas VXL brushless system because of the fact that the motor has only 3500kv which is great for beginers. The vxl esc also has a training mode were you can set up the esc to only allow 1/2 power at full speed.
And it only costs $169.

Actually I have tried this one and I wouldn't go with it just yet, it seems to be a real current hog and drain your batteries very fast, significantly faster than a properly set up mamba. The VXL definately has performance, but in terms of efficiency or tuneability, mamba max is only $10. more.



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 4:40:24 PM)

We do want good run times - decisions, decisions.

Where are they $10 more??!!



happywing -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 4:49:18 PM)

If you want runtime, the SS4300 is your best choice. I prefer the Mamba system myself, but only with LiPo. There is the cogging issue with the MM on NiMh. You can't add speed AND runtime without better batteries.



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 5:01:08 PM)

The SS4300 is discontinued? *edit* I see the GTB 10.5 has replaced it.

Every answer seems to create more questions??!??! I appreciate all the input as this is all foreign to me.

Our requirements are:

1. Speed comparable to our current 19t checkpoint motor with 7 cell IB4200's - thats fast enough for my 4 year old son.
2. Good run times.
3. Low maintenance - I hate these modified brushed motors!
4. No lipo's!!

Thanks again.

Rich






SS Pede -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 6:24:45 PM)

I also recommend the milder Novak setups. My original SS5800 is still working great in my Stampede.

Novak has recently released the EX series of systems. The EX 10.5 system is basically the SS4300 motor, but with Novak's new XBR ESC. These EX systems are much cheaper than the GTB setups, but should be great for you. I really like the XBR ESC (on paper at least), and it should be all you need. You can upgrade to the EX 8.5 motor (basically the same as the SS5800) if you want more speed.



Takedown -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 6:41:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Access

quote:

ORIGINAL: Takedown

IMO your best bet would be the traxxas VXL brushless system because of the fact that the motor has only 3500kv which is great for beginers. The vxl esc also has a training mode were you can set up the esc to only allow 1/2 power at full speed.
And it only costs $169.

Actually I have tried this one and I wouldn't go with it just yet, it seems to be a real current hog and drain your batteries very fast, significantly faster than a properly set up mamba. The VXL definately has performance, but in terms of efficiency or tuneability, mamba max is only $10. more.

What batterys are you using and how much runtime do you think I'd get with a 6cell IB4200 battery?



Access -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 9:20:14 PM)

I was using a 4000mAH 3x LiPo and the runtime was <10 minutes useful. Towards the end it really starts to taper off, it's like it would switch to 'training mode' whenever the low-voltage cutoff was flipped (while the mamba adjusts realtime).

I have never run the VXL off NIMH but I am guessing our runtimes would be pretty short if you drove it hard.

"Our requirements are: 1..2..3..4.."
For those four given, if the Novak will take 7 cell NIMH, it will offer the best runtime. Mamba will have better tuning, acceleration, and 'punch', but don't expect runtimes near what the Novak will give you. That's basically what it comes down to.



Takedown -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 9:25:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Access

I was using a 4000mAH 3x LiPo and the runtime was <10 minutes useful. Towards the end it really starts to taper off, it's like it would switch to 'training mode' whenever the low-voltage cutoff was flipped (while the mamba adjusts realtime).

I have never run the VXL off NIMH but I am guessing our runtimes would be pretty short if you drove it hard.

"Our requirements are: 1..2..3..4.."
For those four given, if the Novak will take 7 cell NIMH, it will offer the best runtime. Mamba will have better tuning, acceleration, and 'punch', but don't expect runtimes near what the Novak will give you. That's basically what it comes down to.

I completly understand. Half the reason that I got the VXL is so I can review it for you guys here on rcu.



yellowfuzzle -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 9:39:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dickster

The SS4300 is discontinued? *edit* I see the GTB 10.5 has replaced it.

Every answer seems to create more questions??!??! I appreciate all the input as this is all foreign to me.

Our requirements are:

1. Speed comparable to our current 19t checkpoint motor with 7 cell IB4200's - thats fast enough for my 4 year old son.
2. Good run times.
3. Low maintenance - I hate these modified brushed motors!
4. No lipo's!!

Thanks again.

Rich







The XBR system here: http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?&I=LXRST7&P=V sounds like it is exactly what you need. It touts similar performance to a 19 turn brushed motor, has good brushless run times, and is low maintenance. It takes 4-7 cell Nimhs and supposedly Novaks work better than Mambas from Nimh batteries. I'm not a Traxxas basher or anything, but I would wait on the VXL set-up. Some of their past electronics have not been all that they were claimed.

Good Luck on your decision.



Slo-V Flyer -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 10:25:29 PM)

I have no issues with my Mamba running on nimh.. I don't see any cogging OR stuttering (two different issues that are too often confused as cogging...) Yes admittedly I'm using 6-cell Ib4200s, 6-cell DTX 3800 SxS pack, and GP3300. No cogging. Cogging as in the ESC can't find the rotor position... That has not happened yet. Once.

Stuttering, yes BUT only when it's going backwards, OR sitting still and I punch the throttle... or when the batteries are about to die, and only stutters for a brief 10th of a second.... OR if it goes out a fair distance away and I give it throttle it will glitch, but that's it.

I don't know where the whole "Mamba Max + nimh = cogging" came from, but I've run it on 12 nimh cells in my E-maxx with a Feigao 9L, and in my Rustler with the 5700 and 6-cell Nimh and noticed absolutely no Cogging.

However, for long runtimes and cool temps, I would also suggest XBR and 10.5 or 13.5, and 8.5 for some more speed. Believe it or not, I twice ran my Novak GTB + 6.5R motor for over 25-30 minutes....using only a cheap 3000 mah pack in my Bandit at decent speeds.



yellowfuzzle -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/15/2007 11:36:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Slo-V Flyer
I don't know where the whole "Mamba Max + nimh = cogging" came from, but I've run it on 12 nimh cells in my E-maxx with a Feigao 9L, and in my Rustler with the 5700 and 6-cell Nimh and noticed absolutely no Cogging.

However, for long runtimes and cool temps, I would also suggest XBR and 10.5 or 13.5, and 8.5 for some more speed. Believe it or not, I twice ran my Novak GTB + 6.5R motor for over 25-30 minutes....using only a cheap 3000 mah pack in my Bandit at decent speeds.



I honestly don't have any experience with the Mambas so your experience is obviously more relavent than the stories that float around. Having said that, it seems the general consensus is Mamba if you have Lipo, Novak if you have Nimh. Not saying that is true or anything, especially as your experience is proof that it isn't. The whole "Mamba -lipo, Novak - Nimh " is probably one of those things where someone didn't have the Mamba ESC set-up properly for Nimh and had cogging or something and started that idea, and now it is "fact". Good to hear that those problems don't really exist or are extremely minimal.

Still I think the XBR would be a better choice than the Mambas considering that he wanted a "mild brushless system" with long runtimes.



rvogster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/16/2007 12:09:43 AM)

My understanding of the problem with nimh and the Mamba Max is that the esc is capable of delivering 100 amps continuous current. The motor will try to draw as much current as it can but nimhs are not capable of delivering any where near what the motor can try and draw. That is when you run into problems. If you connect your Mamba Max up to a PC and tweak the settings a few times after running it you should be able to eliminate the stuttering but usually at the cost of a little power compared to what a LiPo could put out because LiPos are better suited to keep up with the current draw from a good brushless system.



kimberklr -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/16/2007 2:01:42 AM)

for what your asking i would also say the novak 5800 or 8.5(whatever they call it know.
i get about 15-20 minutes of pretty hard run time with mine and older sanyo 3000 hv 6 cells.



Slo-V Flyer -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/16/2007 3:33:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rvogster

My understanding of the problem with nimh and the Mamba Max is that the esc is capable of delivering 100 amps continuous current. The motor will try to draw as much current as it can but nimhs are not capable of delivering any where near what the motor can try and draw. That is when you run into problems. If you connect your Mamba Max up to a PC and tweak the settings a few times after running it you should be able to eliminate the stuttering but usually at the cost of a little power compared to what a LiPo could put out because LiPos are better suited to keep up with the current draw from a good brushless system.


I had my Mamba on High starting power. Still no sign of stuttering on a good charged battery, until the veeery end of the run using GP3300's or whatnot. Must be people are running them overgeared and expecting it to move...... ;)

But yes Nimh will give you less acceleration due to its 30-40 amp discharge limitation, but once the car is up to speed, the only thing the Lipo has over the Nimh equivalent is the Lipo's lower weight and voltage under whatever load.



dickster -> RE: Stampede - reliable, mild brushless setup? (8/16/2007 8:58:11 AM)

Thanks guys, the Novak XBR 10.5 seems to tick the boxes.



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