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new argument - 3/16/2003 6:41:28 AM   
bokuda



Posts: 501
Joined: 4/12/2002
From: South Deerfield, MA, USA
Status: offline 		How about a discussion of the downwind turn next?

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 26

How to start an argument... - 3/16/2003 3:48:50 PM   
robert


 

Posts: 2448
Joined: 3/2/2002
From: private, IRELAND
Status: offline 		Nah, why is a loop, called, a loop?

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 27

How to start an argument... - 3/19/2003 1:43:26 AM   
3D_CAP232



Posts: 306
Joined: 6/6/2002
From: Leicester,
Status: offline 		Hi,
Thought the best argument to start is Futaba vs JR....or DA vs 3W
lol

Why is an immelman called an immelman when according to history Max Immelmans aircraft was incapable of the manoeuver and looks more like a chandel....anyone know better?


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Life is Simple...
Eat, Sleep, Fly 3D

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 28

GRAMMAR - 3/19/2003 4:18:57 AM   
TOYMAKER



Posts: 771
Joined: 1/15/2002
From: WAXAHACHIE, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by 3D_CAP232
Americans never use English properly anyway!!
;P [/QUOTE]

I was wondering why my cue ball wasnt working properly.
Must of been puttin too much American on it. Heh! heh!

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 29

How to start an argument... - 3/19/2003 9:15:50 AM   
Rendegade



Posts: 886
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		*Rendegade steps up to the mike, and begins with a belittling speech to all and sundry*

Okie dokes, for the first part, lest not foget that both of these maneuvres are vertical ones.

A stall turn (according to F3A fokelore) is a STALLED maneuvre, the in effect, the rudder is stalled, the tail is stalled, the wing is stalled, everything is incapable of producing gobs if lift in any direction. The plane goes up, the throttle is cut and with last remaining airspeed, you "kick" the plane over and it drops over a wingtip, and goes back down.

Because the tail is COMPLETELY STALLED at the rotation point, it's common for some planes to actually waggle on the way down (one of the reasons Hanno Prettner put anhedral on the curare to stop the waggle).

There was a period in F3A judging where if they didn't see the waggle, it was assumed that the aircraft had not stalled and it was zeroed.

A hammerhead is infact a DIFFERENT MANEUVRE, so don't confuse the two as I used to.
A hammerhead, is aimed to be a wing tip turn. you go up, get to your turn around point, and chop the throttle and with a little more airspeed and a judicious dab of throttle, fly the aeroplane over the top on rudder... It's never stalled and hence not a stall turn.

So NYAH


Sorry for the epic, but is that a good enough entrance everyone???

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It's easy to fly, just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 30

How to start an argument... - 3/19/2003 9:44:57 AM   
JimTrainor


 

Posts: 1308
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Ontario, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Very interesting, I thought they were different as well.

Very interesting to hear about Hanno Prettner's use of anhedral. Is there a good source for information regarding Hanno Prettner and his airplane designs?

I thought the plane wiggled, but you say it waggles? Perhaps a Brit can pipe up and clarify the correct use of wiggle and waggle for us.

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 31

How to start an argument... - 3/19/2003 11:48:46 AM   
Rendegade



Posts: 886
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		I figure that a waggle would describe it best, as in a dog wags it's tail.

I assume that waggle would mean "movement or osciliation in the yaw axis"

hehehe, techinical jargon is my forte

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It's easy to fly, just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 32

WAGGLE - 3/19/2003 7:24:00 PM   
TOYMAKER



Posts: 771
Joined: 1/15/2002
From: WAXAHACHIE, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Renegade.

If my airplane was held by the same chick as in your photo... its tail would waggle too.

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 33

How to start an argument... - 3/19/2003 7:52:17 PM   
Rossan


 

Posts: 87
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Altrincham, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Having no airspeed DOES NOT MEAN STALLED!!!

When your airplane is sitting on your workbench, is it stalled? Stalled means the airflow has become non-laminer because the section has exceeded the critical angle of attach...PERIOD!!!

In full scale Aerobatics "Hammerhead" and "Stall-turn" are different names for the same figure. I'd be suprised if the same were not true of model competition. Does anyone have the description and down grades for a "Stall Turn" from FAI or IMAC?

< Message edited by Rossan -- Mar 20 2003 12:29AM >

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(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 34

How to start an argument... - 3/19/2003 8:01:37 PM   
bla bla


 

Posts: 1580
Joined: 9/19/2002
From: Oslo, NORWAY
Status: offline 		A lot of you guys seem to be talking about a wing over..not a stalled turn. ie zero vertical airspeed, aircraft rotates around or near CG.

You can tell if you've done it correctly by assessing your throttle... did you use it or not?
If not... your aeroplane wasn't at the stationary point when you kicked it over with rudder... thus it's bummed baby!
The only way to get the aeroplane to rotate correctly is to pop some throttle exactly the moment the aeroplne reaches zero airspeed to kick the rudder/aeroplane over.

Waggle is a result of being on the rudder to long.
You should be more or less off the rudder by the time the aeroplane has rotated 90degs and let gravity take over. This varies from aeroplane to aeroplane and with wind conditions...but in theory it stands.

Anyone looking to perfect a stall turn should also add dab (I said a dab)of down elevator with rudder
to really cream it.
Anymore snippets or useless advice?...Yes.
When driving a cross wind line (and why not, its the best but thats a different story) stall turn into the wind... even though you'll want and in many cases the aeroplanes line will try and force you to do the opposite.

This is a very, very low involvement manourver... its all about visual awareness, timing and finness.
If you're on and working the sticks to much...you're doing it all wrong.
Good luck.

< Message edited by bla bla -- Mar 19 2003 3:12PM >

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 35

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 5:46:05 AM   
Scott Smith



Posts: 282
Joined: 10/29/2002
From: Agawam, MA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rossan
Having no airspeed DOES NOT MEAN STALLED!!!

When your airplane is sitting on your workbench, is it stalled? [/QUOTE]

I gotta agree with you. An aircraft sitting on the end of the runway ready to takeoff is not stalled (unless of course the engine quits!) It is not possible to set off the stall warning horn on a full-scale aircraft with zero airspeed. Your aircraft at the top of a "hammerhead" is at the same state, just tail down.

It's been a few years, but I'm pretty sure the stall warning never went off when I was a passenger in a Decathlon doing this maneuver. I was somewhat surprised by the pilot’s application of full opposite aileron as the aircraft started it’s pivot (to cancel the lift being generated as the top wing went around).

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 36

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 5:56:36 AM   
Rendegade



Posts: 886
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Scott, I imagine in a proper stall turn, if you had a stall indicator on the fin of the Dec. it would go off.

The tail does stall AFAIK.

_____________________________

It's easy to fly, just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

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       Post #: 37

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 7:16:38 AM   
Rossan


 

Posts: 87
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Altrincham, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		RENEGADE,

I have done HUNDREDS of stall turns in full size aircraft including Pitts, Decathlon, Extra and laser types. No, the stall warning did not go off once. Why? Stall warnings are triggered by high angle of attacks approaching the critical (stall) angle of attack. In a "Hammer Head" or "Stall Turn" the angle of attack is either zero with a symmetrical airfoil, or LESS than zero with a lifting section. If the wing had ANY angle of attack it would produce lift and pull the aircraft off line.

Put simply, a wing stalls when you try to make it produce more lift than it can. In a vertical manoevre, you are TELLING the wing to produce NO LIFT AT ALL, which is kind of the exact opposite of stalling.

Gee...This worked better than I thought it would!!!

_____________________________

I'd rather be down here wishing I was up there than up there wishing I was down here!!

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 38

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 7:19:50 AM   
Diablo-RCU


 

Posts: 3208
Joined: 12/19/2001
From: Hammond, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I would argue that if your plane is sitting on the bench, the wing is in fact stalled. There is zero airflow! How the hell can you say the airflow is laminar? Zero means nada. If there is no movement of air, you can't describe the movement of air (and certainly not as laminar).

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 39

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 7:31:01 AM   
Rossan


 

Posts: 87
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Altrincham, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		No it's not laminer, but it's not turbulent either!!

This might be of interest:-

Typically, the lift begins to decrease at an angle of attack of about 15 degrees. The forces necessary to bend the air to such a steep angle are greater than the viscosity of the air will support, and the air begins to separate from the wing. This separation of the airflow from the top of the wing is a stall.

Copied from this website

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/airflylvl3.htm

< Message edited by Rossan -- Mar 20 2003 2:39AM >

_____________________________

I'd rather be down here wishing I was up there than up there wishing I was down here!!

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 40

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 11:02:38 AM   
Rendegade



Posts: 886
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		No no no, you didn't listen (or read, whatever...)

You're absolutely right about the stall warning going off, it don't make a lick of difference what you do it in, the physics remain the same...

But what I'm saying is that when you kick over, the rudder, and the Whole fuselage will stall. That's when it tips over. up to that point it's had enough airspeed to remain in a vertical position.

Hence the waggle, beacuse it needs to get up to airspeed where the rudder starts to provide directional stability.

_____________________________

It's easy to fly, just throw yourself at the ground and miss!

(in reply to Rossan)
       Post #: 41

How to start an argument... - 3/20/2003 11:57:53 AM