RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz*  
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RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/7/2008 5:17:26 PM   
TLH101



Posts: 5547
Joined: 12/27/2001
From: Corpus Christi, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vortex00

HERE'S a DEAL ON RDS8000..... $110 WITH 1 RECEIVER! WWW.BOBSHOBBYCENTER.COM

PASS THE WORD!

ENJOY


Can't seem to find this radio on their site, or any Airtronics radios.

_____________________________

Terry
"Old Fart" in training. (not to be an R/Cer, but to be an "Old Fart")

(in reply to vortex00)
       Post #: 1001

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/7/2008 5:52:13 PM   
CCFPILOT


 

Posts: 82
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Orange, CA, USA
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Shubova


Way to go. I may not believe the first answer I read either.

(in reply to Shubova)
       Post #: 1002

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/7/2008 9:55:13 PM   
MikeGreenshields


 

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Joined: 3/15/2005
From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA
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Range is a great question. This is going to be long. Sorry...

In our industry, there is really no definition of "full range". If you look through other radio manufacturer's websites, you'll find no one actually publishes range specifications. They all tend to use two basic categories "Park Flyer" or "Full Range".

The reason that no one publishes the exact numbers is because a giant amount of different conditions affect range with these radios. There are several reasons for this including being limited to 100mW output and the short wavelength among others.

So, when we set out to "categorize" the range of the radio, we looked at two things.. 1. As compared to other radios and their technology, is this more of a "Park Flyer" radio or more of a "Full Range" radio. 2. In actual use how did it really "perform".

Condition 1. Park Flyer or Full Range. In terms of output, this is a full range radio. "park flyer" radios at the time (and some still are) had only 10mW. This radio is closer to the 100mW maximum output allowed by the FCC. (There is some variance here because output actually varies in use, so it's more of a range of mW output rather than a fixed number..) So in terms of technology, output, and comparison of those design conditions it is a full range radio. Our radio also, of course, is certified and meets all FCC and Canadian regulations.

Condition 2. How does it do in practice. This is obviously a more difficult question to answer because there is no stated industry standard and none of our competitors really make a claim about range. So, we simply looked at two things in this area..
How did it compare in actual side by side tests?
Can you fly a reasonable/normal type flying model without worry of going out of range?

Side by side field tests were pretty easy. We turned it on and walked the tx away from the rx with the different radios all at the same time. At the places we did this with, the radios we used for comparison (other brands, claimed full range, 100mW output radios, same basic price range) all had over 4000 feet of range on the ground, line of sight. That's not a claim, that's simply what we found. Just so you know, the two people could not see each other and had to communicate by mobile phone so that they could tell each other if the signal was good, servo response was correct, etc..

We, of course, flew the radio a lot in a lot of different types of models in a lot of different places. In every case we could fly the model farther away than we could see it. We have several test pilots that actually used binoculars so that they could see the plane farther than normal conditions. We quantified most of these results and found that 40-60 size planes typically cannot be seen or oriented much past 3000 feet and the plane was in control even when it flew out of sight. We find that the sailplane guys are actually the most demanding. They will actually fly more than 3500 feet away from themselves as low as 10 feet off the ground chasing thermals. You can't do this much with a 40 size plane but these pilots with their eagle eyes and 120" span planes do it regularly. They all report the same. The range was fine and they never lost control.

In our research we found that most flying at power plane fields is done within a 1200 foot radius from the pilot. The guys flying 40% scale are maxing out at around 2500 feet at the most (expect as those pilots improve their skills, they actually tend to fly closer....)

From a comparative standpoint, the radio is "full range". And to us, full range means performing as well as our contemporaries in general and in practice being able to fly the plane farther away than it can be seen. That seems to be between 3000 and 5000 feet in the air and 3500 feet on the ground and in the conditions we tested it in, the radio did these things.

There is no 1-answer on range because installation, battery, weather, sun spots, amount of local interference and other variable affect it. That's why our competitors tend not to make any scientific claims about range and why it was frankly so hard for us to test the radio. We had no industry standard to compare to really and no standard conditions to use. So, the rating is full range and with proper installation, except for the most extreme of examples perhaps, the radio is going to have vastly more range than your eyes.

If you're planning on using a camera and tv screen and want to fly it 20,000 feet away, you'll need different equipment because with 100mW of output, it simply is not going to have 4-5 miles of range in any "real" environment. No 2.4GHz radio does today.

We flew this radio in helis, gliders, sport power planes, big and small electrics, SAM stuff using old magneto ignition, turbines, edf big and small, big scale, little foamies, indoor foamies and helis. It works in every application we found and had range that always exceeded the pilots needs or expectations.

It would be great if the industry came up with a standard and we all used it to measure I guess. But in the end, the actual use matters much more than the theoretical standards that may not even properly represent real-life use anyway. And in every case, our pilots have shown the radio to be reliable and to demonstrate proper range that back up the claim of "full range".

Mike


_____________________________

Mike Greenshields
Product Manager

(in reply to Shubova)
       Post #: 1003

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 2:29:09 AM   
CCFPILOT


 

Posts: 82
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Orange, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGreenshields

Range is a great question. This is going to be long. Sorry...

If you're planning on using a camera and tv screen and want to fly it 20,000 feet away, you'll need different equipment because with 100mW of output, it simply is not going to have 4-5 miles of range in any "real" environment. No 2.4GHz radio does today.


Mike


Mike;
I'm sure you know this type of flying is not permitted by AMA anyway.

I am wondering if the RDS8000 increases power output as the distance between transmitter and receiver increases, or is the power output fixed??

(in reply to MikeGreenshields)
       Post #: 1004

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 6:28:09 AM   
Shubova


 

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From: Upland, CA, USA
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Thanks Mike for a very enlightening comment. I find the FASST technology is very interesting. I noticed you didn’t say anything about it. I’ll be doing my own search of the subject just to satisfy my own curiosity.

CCFPILOT thanks for your sensible comments.

Happy Flying!
Shubova

(in reply to CCFPILOT)
       Post #: 1005

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 6:42:01 AM   
crazy8s


 

Posts: 96
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Somewhere, PA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowesinstaller

Crazy8s,
I didn't take any pictures. The one plane is a total loss, the other I am in the process of repairing. As I told Mike, I am not mad about the radio. I am mad about the way HobbyPeople are handling it. We all know that if you want to be in this hobby you have to expect good days and bad days. I didn't even think to take pictures. This is my first time using a 2.4 radio. Could it be installation issues? Anything is possible... It is very difficult to have proper antenna placement in a 40-60 size plane. I used pieces of fuel line to hold the two antenna leads at the correct attitude. Again... Both planes flew with 72mhz radios with no issues.


Lowesinstaller,

I hate to hear about someone losing airplanes because of radio failures. Hopefully, Global/Airtronics will take care of your situation in short order. It stinks to be without a radio. Please let us know how this whole situation turns out and if they were able to determine the problem with the radio.

thanks.

(in reply to Lowesinstaller)
       Post #: 1006

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 9:14:03 AM   
MikeGreenshields


 

Posts: 172
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From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA
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The output does not vary by distance.

Shubova, I actually don't understand your point. I didn't mention any other brands by name. It's not my place. And in terms of range, Direct Sequencing or Frequency Hopping or any combination of the two has very little affect on range. They affect other things but not range. Other things like output, clarity of signal, quality of design, etc all affect range.

Mike


_____________________________

Mike Greenshields
Product Manager

(in reply to crazy8s)
       Post #: 1007

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 9:32:19 AM   
crazy8s


 

Posts: 96
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Somewhere, PA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shubova


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazy8s

Shubova,

You have asked this question already 2 - 3 times on this and another thread and you have been told that the radios range is beyond the pilots ability to see the plane. Check the first 2 pages of this thread on Mike's reports of the range testing. This is a FULL RANGE radio. Unless you are planning to do some instrument flying with an onboard camera for visual I fail to see what you are concerned about. If someone has told you that this radio lacks range they are very mistaken.


crazy8s
I fail to see the problem with asking questions. Untile I get a definitive answer from some who I know isn’t just spewing manure, I will not stop asking. A lot of people give comments and opinions with no basis at all. I asked Mike Greenshields Product Manager (not you) a question and I was hoping to get more technical answer then “It has unlimited range”. How do you know, do you have any solid technical data to support your statement? Have you seen any technical reports, or studies that Airtronics has done on the subject? Do you have a degree in communions or electronics? I understand that this technology was developed for and used by the Army for over 25 years ago. Have you read the results of there R&D?
I appreciate any comments but I am not a lemming or an idiot. Just because someone says it so doesn’t mean it’s true. Everything has its limitations. I have fallowed the instruction to a “T” and I am confident that I will not have any problems.
I was an aerospace engineer for 30 years and I have heard every BS line there is. Most of it was just that BS. Again as I said before people say this or that so I investigate and I will not stop asking questions until I know that I know.
And as they say “You can take that to the bank”, my friend.
Last if you don’t like my questions you don’t have to read them!
Thanks,
Shubova




Shubova,

What's with the soapbox flaming tirade?? I've reread my answer to your post a dozen times and for the life of me I can't understand what triggered such an off the wall response from you. There is NEVER a problem with asking questions, that's how we all learn and understand things, but when someone repeatedly asks the exact same question "what is the range of this radio" 4 times on this and other threads and receives 100% true responses "this is a FULL RANGE radio" and these responses are completely ignored by you and then you repeat the question again it does make some of us wonder what it is exactly that you are waiting to hear. We ALL answered you honestly and truthfully in response to your simple question and RCGeckoman even took the time to try and explain to you how the freqeuncy hopping worked. If you were looking for all of the technical data from an engineering standpoint then you should have specified that originally and we could have told you that you are in the wrong forum. All I did was try to tell you that it was a full range radio and that you could probably fly a plane beyond what you could see. I NEVER said it had unlimited range. Check my post. As far as "spewing manure" the only person who did that to you was the knucklehead at your club who informed you that this radio has lousy range due to the frequency hopping. Get real, even a moron would realize that a radio that was marketed and sold as a full range radio turned out to have a range problem that the manufacturer would have been burned down by the Internet in a matter of weeks. I even tried to direct you to the first few pages of this thread so that you could read all that Mike went through in conducting their range testing. Your response was uncalled for and insulting. Try thanking the other 3 people who took the time to answer your question on this and the other 2 threads that you posted in and chill out with the flaming responses.

If you have already purchased this radio just use it, it is the best value in 2.4 technology for the price in the market.

And by the way, FAAST has nothing to do with this radio, that's the marketing gimmick used by Futaba for their 2.4 radios. It stands for Futaba Advanced Spread Spectrum Technology. You want to search on FHSS which is Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum which is what Futaba and Airtronics uses.

(in reply to Shubova)
       Post #: 1008

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 12:23:04 PM   
deckerv



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From: Wellsville, NY, USA
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Anyone use the RD8000 2.4 in giant scale ships with elecronic ignitions? Thinking of not really upgrading my Futaba 9c, but taking a sideways step to an Airtronics to make the move to 2.4 . Let's face it, the price is RIGHT!


_____________________________

Vo Decker
AMA 117021

(in reply to crazy8s)
       Post #: 1009

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 2:59:18 PM   
bigedmustafa



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From: Omaha, NE, USA
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Loweinstaller is the first RDS8000 owner in 1009 posts who either expresses complete dissatisfaction with the RDS8000 or indicates that he believes he lost planes as a direct result of the radio system. I'm confident that, with a little persistence, Loweinstaller will get satisfaction from the folks at Hobby People.

With regard to Shubova, I got the impression that a Spektrum owner told him that Frequency Hopping Spread Spektrum wasn't as good as Spektrum's DSM/DSM2 signal processing because frequency hopping shortens the usable range. Mike Greenshields didn't address this specifically because Shubova didn't ask it directly. Frequency hopping should have no effect on usable range, good or bad. A well-designed FHSS system from Futaba or Airtronics will have the same usable range as a Spektrum DSM/DSM2 system with the same transmitter output.

As to deckerv's question, all 2.4Ghz radio systems are better protected against ignition system noise from gas engines compared to 72Mhz radios. The Airtronics RDS8000 has been flown and tested in numerous giant scale gas airplanes and should be expected to perform wonderfully so long as proper antenna installation takes place and the plane is thoroughly range-tested before flying.

_____________________________

To a tree, balsa wood and MonoKote taste just like chicken!

(in reply to deckerv)
       Post #: 1010

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 4:58:13 PM   
Shubova


 

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From: Upland, CA, USA
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crazy8s
I guess my comment was a bit strong but my point is very simple I will not allow you or anyone to chastise me or disrespects me in any way. For what ever ther reason. I’ve been around to long and have fought too many battles to allow that to happen.
You talk about insulted; I as so insulted by your attitude I didn’t even take the time read the post that you suggested. That was my mistake.

When I learned that Mike was the Product Support Manger my question was directed to him (not you!), because I had heard from a sales rep at a Hobby People store that there had been some initial R&D done on this radio. I assumed he had to most correct info on the subject.
The answers that Mike gave me were what I was looking for. His fallow up answer about
FASST was also to the point. Earlier that day I had been talking to someone about FASST and FHSS. I misspoke when I wrote FASST, I ment to write FHSS.

I guess my questions did one good thing it has stirred up a lively conversation about range, FASST and FHSS. I did what I wanted to do, I learned a little more about the subject. And yes I thought the guy at the field was full of it...thats why I asked.
I have never read or received any response from RCGeckoma. I posted my question in another thread. I may have not checked the Notify me via e-mail…box.


bigedmustaga said was right on when he wrote:
“With regard to Shubova, I got the impression that a Spektrum owner told him that Frequency Hopping Spread Spektrum wasn't as good as Spektrum's DSM/DSM2 signal processing because frequency hopping shortens the usable range. Mike Greenshields didn't address this specifically because Shubova didn't ask it directly. Frequency hopping should have no effect on usable range, good or bad. A well-designed FHSS system from Futaba or Airtronics will have the same usable range as a Spektrum DSM/DSM2 system with the same transmitter output”.

I apologize for not being more specific…something else I learn from this thread.
You may comment if you wish but as far as I’m concerned the matter has been resolved.

Shubova

(in reply to bigedmustafa)
       Post #: 1011

RE: *Airtronics RD8000 2.4 GHz* - 9/8/2008 5:21:25 PM   
zertsman


 

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From: Tyler, TX, USA
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the person who invents a way to properly convey humor, irony or anyother emotional or informational inflection in an email or forum post will be albe to share the next nobel peace prize with Al Gore.


used my RDS again yesterday.... after charging the battery. it still remains a great radio. cudos to anyone who has had a hand in developing and geting it offered here in the US. i look forward to their next product.

(in reply to Shubova)
       Post #: 1012