My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash  
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My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/20/2007 6:20:58 AM   
Tjetfire94


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 2/19/2007
From: Kaneohe, HI, USA
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Hi,
My airplane which is a Lanier Giant Extra 330L crashed just earlier this sunday. I was debating weather to fly or not and then a calm wind pocket came. There was a big ban of rain after that pocket of blue sky. The winds went down to a mere 10-15 knot winds. This is normal too, but today it had about 15-20...25 knots of wind maybe, i might be wrong but ya. I took off nice and did a few circuts. I was not exactly confident with it because it was only the 6th flight and the engine wasnt broken in yet. The engine I had was a DA 50, a very beautiful engine with smoke pump and mufflers too. I never got to use the smoke yet and the crank shaft was still a little stiff. I got confident enough to do a few rolls and loops. Then i did a Rolling circle for about 75% of a circle at high altitueds about 200 feet to 300 feet. It was pretty high so I was ready for it if or when the engine would quit on me. I finished going upwind and did a cuban 8. Then I turned to go down the runway and started to turn. I was about at 80 degrees of banking and all of a sudden the plane went into a diving spiral. I tried to pull out of it but nothing happened. I couldnt hear the engine because a jet was taxiing. It dropped from about 50 ft high and just went down. I had a PCM reciever on it with a failsafe on it but the failsafe just didnt work. it had almost full diflection on it and it went down hard. I went over with a friend running to beat the rain and get it packed up. It landed about 200-300 feet away and into pavement. My dad came out with the truck and helped us. The reciver looked in tact but I am still going to send it in to get it checked out. The cowel was destroyed and the engine looked bad. But My dad said the crank shaft still turned so I assumed damage wasnt too great to the engine. The spinner shattered and the only part still in tact was the tail. Both wings came out and ripped the fuselage apart. I had an alunimum wing spar which is very durable be snapped where it links to the left wing. I really hope that the engine is ok and the servos and reciever are repairable. The servos didnt take much damage seeing that at least 8 of them looked undamaged. One of the alunimum control horns flew off of one of the aileron servos. I will try to post pictures of the aftermath of it but if I cant Email me and I can send them to you.

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_____________________________

Aloha from TJ Goodin,
Paradise RC Flyers,
       Post #: 1

RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/20/2007 7:26:25 AM   
alan0899


 

Posts: 2040
Joined: 4/17/2006
From: Cundletown, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Status: online
G'day TJ,
Sounds like you may have had a battery problem, or at least a power supply problem.
Beacause you stated your failsafe did not work, it won't work without power to the RX.
What batteries, switch/switches, etc. & radio did you have in your Extra.

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Good Flyin Mate. Keep Thyne Airspeed up, lest the ground arise & smite thee, Allan.

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/20/2007 8:10:38 AM   
Tjetfire94


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 2/19/2007
From: Kaneohe, HI, USA
Status: offline
Hi Allan,
I have the 4200 amp or something in there and after the crash it was still connected.
The switches I had were the Heavy duty kind of switches.
I had a PCM Receiver that was a Futaba 7 channel. I used the Futaba 7Cap/ 7channel radio, Next month my dad was talking about getting the SPX radios or spectrum
But I really dont know what happened. It could have been the chatter from the Marine Core base we fly at because a guy with a trainer went down before because fire trucks did practice and had high band PAs going up and spikeing at different channels.


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Aloha from TJ Goodin,
Paradise RC Flyers,

(in reply to alan0899)
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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 6:12:13 AM   
Mr67Stang



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From: Raeford, NC, USA
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A plane like this, when the wing is stalled and the engine is flamed out, will go into a spin and spiral down. Holding the elevator will only agravate the spin, and yes it will seem as though the plane is not responding to inputs. What is needed to recover is enough altitude to neutralize the contols, apply opposite rudder to negate the spin then gently flair out. That being said I seriously doubt you are flying a plane of this caliber without already knowing this. So, did you hook all the surviving electronics up and test them post crash?

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 11:40:55 AM   
bkdavy



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From: FrederickMD, USA
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The way you describe the winds that day, it sounds like you got hit with a tail wind gust. I've seen this happen on a couple occassions. It looks like a radio hit because you expect you have plenty of airspeed. When the tail wind gust hits, the air speed of the plane suddenly drops, inducing the spin. The first instinct to pull up elevator just makes it worse of course.

Good luck with the repairs/replacement.

Brad

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 12:04:34 PM   
jetmech05


 

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Joined: 7/12/2005
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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here we go again!!!!! wind has no effect on lift.
You either had a radio hit, possible since you're flying near Kaneohe Bay. ECM works on a broad range.
Or you got too slow with 80 deg of bank and tip stalled it, a tip stall does indeed send it sprialing in. the fail safe won't do anything and just elevator by itself doesn't make a difference.

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 12:25:14 PM   
craigpuckett


 

Posts: 87
Joined: 5/16/2007
From: Rison, AR, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jetmech05

here we go again!!!!! wind has no effect on lift.


If so, why do carriers turn into the wind for launch and recovery ??

If you have a 25mph tail wind and you are going 25mph what would the air going over the top of the wing be doing (not lifting I bet)

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 3:07:12 PM   
gboulton



Posts: 1862
Joined: 5/28/2005
From: La Vergne, TN, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: craigpuckett
If so, why do carriers turn into the wind for launch and recovery ??


Do you really want to know, or are you simply "proving your point"?

(which is incorrect btw...wind has no effect on lift)

quote:


If you have a 25mph tail wind and you are going 25mph what would the air going over the top of the wing be doing (not lifting I bet)


Depends. Is the 25mph I'm traveling my ground speed or air speed?

If it's a ground speed, then you're right...I'm falling out of the sky because my airspeed is 0.
If it's an airspeed, then my wings are providing whatever lift they provide at 25mph...and don't even know there's wind anywhere around.



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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 3:23:25 PM   
waydown2low


 

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From: Guymon, OK, USA
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Jetfire, that particular radio I have seen several problems with. When put in a plane with electronic ignition I have seen them go crazy even when a long distance was put between the ignition parts and receiver parts. The plane would start deflecting all surfaces in full deflection, and when my JR system was put in the plane there was no problem. I don't know if it is just a problem with my friends particular radio or a ongoing problem with that model. He just ordered a new 9c Futaba to cure the problem. Be sure you do a very good range check with the motor running to make sure your not getting interference.

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 5:22:54 PM   
aerowoof


 

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Joined: 6/11/2006
From: pembroke, NH, USA
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was the nose pointed down during the spin or was it almost level with the horizin?if it was almost level you were probably in a flat spin and the only way out os full power and full down to get air moving again,with no engine .all you can do is try full down and wait all other controls will have no effedt until air gets moving over them

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 6:45:27 PM   
jetmech05


 

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From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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if you have a 25 mph tail wind and the aircrafts airspeed is 25 mph you're going 25 mph..however ground speed will be something more. turn into the wind you are still going 25 mph airspeed ground speed will be less...
look at it this way, in the pattern, down wind leg, no wind...suddenly there is a 10 mph gust the airplane didnt climb, then when it stopped the airplane didn't descend.
People have the tendency to confuse airspeed with ground speed.wind has no effect on lift or airspeed only ground speed.
A carrier turns into the wind to begin to get air flow over the wings..once airborne no effect

(in reply to aerowoof)
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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 7:54:03 PM   
vmsguy


 

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Joined: 4/4/2007
From: Woodville, WI, USA
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You mentioned it was your 6th flight with this bird. And that you weren't entirely comfortable..

Why were you uncomfortable? Had the bird been exhibiting quirky behavior on previous flights? I'm just theorizing, if the bird had radio interference problems on previous flights, that could lead to eratic behavior while you flew it. You didn't notice these things, or chalked them up to engine wierdness, or some other thing. But because the wind was calmer, or the phase of the moon, or just dumb luck, you got away with it. This time however, it came back to bite you...

Just a thought.

Good luck fixing or replacing. Hope the engine's good. But if I may suggest.. Leave off the smoke and other goodies until the bird/engine are thoroughly broke in, and you're comfortable flying it....




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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/21/2007 11:33:15 PM   
Mr67Stang



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Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Raeford, NC, USA
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"Wind has no effect on lift."

I am not an aeronautical engineer or have any formal education in aerodynamics. However I do know what I have personally experienced. I challenge any of you to take the main wing from any of your planes out side on a windy day and hold it facing the head wind. Slightly increace the angle of attack and tell me it does not try to rise or decrease the angle of attack and ot does not drop, all this while standing in place. I am not trying to argue that wind does effect lift but my personal experience makes me think it does.

As stated by jetmech If I fly into a 25 mph headwind I can reduce my ground speed without stalling. Lets say my plane's stall speed is 30 mph IAS, At 29 mph it stalls and falls. If I am flying into the 25 mph head wind and the plane is travelling at 5 mph ground speed (lets just say at 10 ft AGL). I have 30 mph IAS. Then I turn 180 degrees without adjusting power and have a 25 mph tail wind... What is going to happen (we know this one) but why? if indeed wind has no effect on lift.

IMPORTAINT: I am not trying to be argumentative... I just want to understand.

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RE: My Lanier Giant Extra 330 crash - 8/22/2007 12:01:17 AM   
gboulton



Posts: 1862
Joined: 5/28/2005
From: La Vergne, TN, USA
Status: offline
Mr67Stang,

What you're overlooking is the fact that YOU ARE HOLDING THE WING. As such, you are imparting a force acting as thrust.

Here's the deal, folks...

What so often gets confused, as stated above, is ground speed or ground track and air speed. The trick to understanding lift, and the (lack of) effect wind has upon it is to IGNORE THE GROUND. Remember, when the plane's in the air, it has NO contact with the ground.

Consider that air is a fluid (any basic HS physics textbook will tell you this). let's compare it to another fluid...water.

The airborne airplane exists within this fluid in EXACTLY the same way that a fish exists within a fish tank. Now. Put that fish at the center of the tank. There he sits...motionless. Now...carry the tank across the room. You are providing "wind" (perhaps "current" if you prefer). The fish's ground track is, indeed, greatly effected (and in fact solely determined in this case) by the "wind"...but HE has remained motionless. HIS SPEED THROUGH THE WATER HAS NOT CHANGED.

Consider the same fish....say he starts swimming at 1 foot per second, from one end to the other of a 10' tank. Again...move the tank. EVEN IF YOU MOVE IT IN OPPOSITION to his direction of travel (a head wind), his speed THROUGH THE WATER hasn't changed...he's still swimming at 1 foot per second. Now, to be sure, after 10 seconds, though he HAS traversed 10 feet of water, he will NOT have traveled 10 feet along the ground....rather, he will have gone 10 feet - whatever offset you gave him moving the tank. Say you moved it backwards at 1/2 foot per second...he will have covered 10' of water, but moved only 5' across the room.

The airplane works the same way. It's usually easier to think about it the same as we did the fish...let's consider, for a minute, a motionless aircraft (a balloon is always a wonderful example for this)

Here sits the balloon..motionless in still air. Ok...fine. Now...let's add a 10 kt wind from the south. Guess what...the balloon is, indeed, moving along THE GROUND heading North at 10 kts...but relative to the AIR AROUND IT, it's still motionless. The air moves along at 10 kts North, the balloon moves along at 10 kts North...there is no difference between the two. Thus, AERODYNAMICALLY, the balloon is still motionless.

Now...give this item some thrust...it becomes an airplane. Say this airplane moves along at 100' per second heading 270 (due west). Now...toss in a 10' per second wind from 090 (from the east, heading west).

Sure enough...the airplane is, for every second, now covering 110' of ground...but it's STILL ONLY MOVING THROUGH 100' OF AIR.

The velocity and amount of air over its wings HAS NOT CHANGED. It simply CAN'T. the airplane MUST be carried along within the air in which it finds itself. Thus...AIRSPEED hasn't changed, as a result, LIFT hasn't changed.

=================

Do we take off and land into the wind? Sure. Do carriers turn into the wind for launch and recovery? Absolutely. If you hold a wing in a 25 kt wing, will you feel lift? you bet.

ALL of these things are relative to a FIXED POINT, the ground. Remember...it's absolutely acknowledged and true that wind DOES effect GROUND SPEED. Well, guess what boys and girls...I dunno about you, but I'd like my GROUND SPEED...the speed relative to either that big honking airplane killing tree (in the case of a full scale plane), or relative to little old ME in the case of an RC plane...to be as LOW as possible. I'm getting old...I don't react as well as I once did.