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Superception- what were the modifications? - 8/25/2007 1:49 AM   
Deadstik



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Status: offline 		Most of you here on the Classic Pattern forum are very well schooled in Jim Kimbro's Deception pattern plane. No question it is a great flying aircraft... but my question concerns a heavily modified Deception that was coined the "Superception". This plane was flown in the Va. Beach area by a couple of the local pattern guru's in the early/mid 80s but the one name that comes to mind is Dougie Consolvo. Does anyone know or remember the modifications that turned a Deception into a SuperCeption??? Inquiring minds would like to know. Pictures would be great!! As with most things in classic pattern, this is the place to ask......


Thanks anyone/everyone for your help.

Dan
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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 8/25/2007 6:24 AM   
Skylane



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Status: offline 		Hi Dan,

Back in the early 1980's I was the president of the Florida Pattern Association and I put out a newsletter tracking contest results and reporting on pattern activities. I saved my old newsletters and they make interesting reading now. In May 1982 I was lecturing at the University of California, Riverside and had the occasion to attend a pattern contest at Mile Square Park in Fountain Valley. In my report I mentioned a nice chat with Joe Bridi who was flying his new XLT with a prototype K&B 61 rear exhaust which performed very well. I had a long conversation with Dave Wilson who was flying a modified Deception in Masters. Dave practiced with Jim Kimbro and so was well versed on the Deception design. He made two modifications - 1 1/2 " anhedral in the stab which reportedly balanced the up and down elevator response (others have reported that Jim Kimbro didn't like the anhedral version as well as the original.) Dave also widened the fin to 1" where it faired into the fuselage as in the Curare and Tipo designs. He reported better rudder response and that he could do a knife edge loop with it!
Troy Allen was selling a design called the Exception. This was basically an all fiberglass Deception. All fiberglass in this case meaning that the foam wing and stab were glassed - not covered in balsa. As I recall, Rick Sunderland in our club bought one and it flew well. But the "all glass over foam" construction tended to soften in the Florida sun.
I don't know about the Superception, but I thought that these recollections would add to the growing lore surrounding the Deception design.

Jeff

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 8/25/2007 1:45 PM   
Deadstik



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Status: offline 		Jeff,

Thanks for your update...As I remember now, the Superception did have an anhedral stab....Your 1 1/2" measurement certainly helps in that....not quite sure about the vertical stab mod, but is sounds logical.... hopefully we will find out some more info... thanks again.

Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/25/2009 6:41 AM   
dave_anderson



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Status: offline 		Would the 1 1/2" measurement be vertical distance from the center of the stab tip to the root chord line? Is that the number on both stabs or the measurement while one side is flat on the table and the other up off the table?

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/25/2009 12:23 PM   
RFJ



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Status: offline 		Here's Jim with a development of the Deception called the Silhouette. Placed 5th at the 1984 Nationals. Rossi powered.

Other two shots are an earlier (1980) mid wing version called Double Vision.

Ray

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< Message edited by RFJ -- 9/27/2009 2:15 AM >

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/25/2009 6:59 PM   
flywilly


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Dan,
I can confirm everything Skylane said. I owned an Exception kit (never built it - mine came with conventional foam wings, but I bought the kit second-hand) the fuselage was nicely done. I never tried the anhedral stab, but did do the fin modification. I had a nice chat with Dave Wilson at the '83 nats about the finer points of the Deception -very nice guy.
As for the Superception... I've seen one or two way back (one was Dougie Consolvo's), but I can't find a photo of one.
Happy Hunting,
Will

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/25/2009 7:00 PM   
Skylane



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Status: offline 		I'm not sure, but I think that it would be 1 1/2" on each side. As I recall the Tipo had a total of 3" anhedral.

Jeff

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/26/2009 2:13 AM   
Deadstik



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Status: offline 		HI Will,

Funny how these old "stories" just don't seem to go away. I'm presently trying to get in touch with Dougie to get the real info. Jeff, I think that 1 1/2 was per side for a 3 " total. I've been looking thru all my pictures and can't find a one of the Superception... but I'll bet one is out there.... as someone wise once said..... somebody knows everything and where it is..... it just isn't me....

gotta keep looking.


Dan
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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/26/2009 8:44 AM   
Paternguy


 

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Status: offline 		Funny this should come up.

I was working on a built up version of the Deception.



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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 2:38 AM   
Paternguy


 

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Status: offline 		This thread inspired me to finish up the drawing. I got the main drawing done, now I am going to break out all the individual parts that need to be cut. My intent is to have as much as I can laser cut for me.

Let me know what you think, or if you see anything I missed.

I am tempted to build two of these one stock as per this drawing and one with the anhedral and tail mods described in the thread.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 2:41 AM   
dave_anderson



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Status: offline 		WOW! I like it!

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 3:21 AM   
Paternguy


 

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Status: offline 		I did find something I missed. The false ribs for the landing gear.

I figure it should come in a good bit lighter than the foam core version.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 7:38 PM   
doxilia



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paternguy

This thread inspired me to finish up the drawing. I got the main drawing done, now I am going to break out all the individual parts that need to be cut. My intent is to have as much as I can laser cut for me.

Let me know what you think, or if you see anything I missed.

I am tempted to build two of these one stock as per this drawing and one with the anhedral and tail mods described in the thread.

PG,

nicely done! I just sent you a PM.

The one thing I noticed in the nose of the Deception is the lack of space on either side of the engine mount to allow things to be mounted easily. I see that your CAD plan follows Jim's closely and the mount is shown as interfering with the side blocks. When I scratched a 40" version of the Deception, I decided to build the cowl from sheet balsa instead of carved out blocks. I think it worked out just as well and probably came in lighter. However, even so, I am very limited in how much thickness I can add to the cowl interior with the finish before the mount will no longer slide in. In fact, I'd say that in the absence of film covering on the inside (not something I like doing), any paint type finish is going to cause the mount to interfere. The result is that I'll have to thin out the inside of the cowl sides in order to allow for finishing and facilitate the engine mount.

I suspect, based on dimensions, that any 61 size power plant that one might want to install in the full size model, would cause a similar problem. A very small increase to the former widths would take care of this nicely. One option would be to cut fuse sides that include the cowl region and use thick triangle stock to produce the necessary material for shaping.

This post on the 40" span build thread outlines how I went about the cowl:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8403054

The somewhat poor picture attached shows roughly the end result of the shaping (the engine is just dropped in the cowl not actually mounted so it's too low).

David.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 7:40 PM   
doxilia



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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFJ

Here's Jim with a development of the Deception called the Silhouette. Placed 5th at the 1984 Nationals. Rossi powered.

Other two shots are an earlier (1980) mid wing version called Double Vision.

Ray

Hi Ray,

would you happen to have the accompanying text that goes with those pictures? I'd be most interested in reading more about the evolution of Jim's design. Did the Silhouette and Double Vision have different dimension specs from the Deception?

Cheers, David.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 8:44 PM   
RFJ



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quote:

I'd be most interested in reading more about the evolution of Jim's design.


So would I David

Unfortunately there is no accompanying text. They were taken from MAN reports on two US Nats and no further details of the models were given. We really need to ask Mr Kimbro. Anyone know if he's still around.

Ray

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/28/2009 9:54 PM   
doxilia



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Status: online 		Ray,

he certainly is. He posts on the forum from time to time. He recently posted on a related Deception thread and he posted once on my little Deception build thread.

It would be great if he were able to enlighten us.

David.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/29/2009 1:35 AM   
Paternguy


 

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Status: offline 		I drew the fuse exactly as they are shown on the plans. I did notice the engine mount interference issue. I was planning one sheet sides and triangular stock at the corners. This was a first pass at the drawings, as such the only difference, at this point, between the standard Deception and this drawing is the incorporation of the built up wing and stab. I want to go over the fuse and see if I can come up with any other areas that could lighten things up. I was thinking of doing the vertical stab in 1/4" sheet with lightening holes and then sheet that with 1/8" on either side. Maybe some light weight contest balsa for the top and bottom fuse sheeting. Just a few ideas I am kicking around at this point.

If anyone else has any ideas, please tell me. I am open to anything that will make this bird fly better. I do kind of like the idea of anhedral in the stab, I always thought that looked great on these ballistic birds.


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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/29/2009 3:05 AM   
doxilia



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Status: online 		Doug,

PM replied to.

Your approach to the 1/2" fin/rudder sounds like a good one. That approach might also work for the fuse top and bottom by using lightening holes in a sub-sheets and then covering with a thinner sheet for glassing purposes. In fact this could be done on the sides too. I also built up the bellypan with crossgrain balsa in two layers which made it stronger and lighter.

I do feel that a 5-10% widening of the fuse would facilitate overall gear installation. How much remains to be determined particularly by a standard 61 size engine mount.

David.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 9/29/2009 5:21 AM   
flywilly


 

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Status: offline 		Great Looking Deception, David. Yes the nose is pretty tight. Probably the best solution would be a fiberglass cowl. Jim Kimbro is flying pattern again, with his son now (who is closer to the age Jim was when he designed the Deception). It would be great to hear from Jim regarding the design of the Double Vision and Silhouette.
I'd love a copy of the all wood Deception plans. Years ago, I was going to cut up some cores for rib outlines to build a very light Deception, but moved on to other projects (and Turnaround pattern).
-Will

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 1/20/2010 10:33 AM   
dave pattern


 

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would it be possible to get a copy of the cad plan you did for the deception?
i have autocad so i would be able to open the file
thanks
Dave.

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RE: Superception- what were the modifications? - 1/20/2010 10:35 AM   
dave pattern


 

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Status: offline 		If the cad drwgs are avail. i will send you my email
thanks
dave.

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