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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/28/2009 5:26 PM   
olwarbirds


 

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I realize it will take more than I've putting into this hobby to attain a level of expertise commensurate with my desires.

Scott


Scott, Giz I feel for ya man...i know exactly how u feel....ive been doing rc stuff near on 40 yrs now, every rc endeavor ive gotten into ive exceded extremely well cars/boats and planes...but with a noticable decrease in my bank accts...I added electric helis to this mix several months ago and whoa this isnt easy. Helis r the hardest to fly and require alot more tweaking and constant tlc, but in comparison to a balsa plane that when u crash most often u pick up a pile of lil pieces at least with a heli its done in a modular construction so its not bad to rebuild...in my opinion it takes a person with alot of determination and willingness to fail and overcome to be successful with a heli....Scott u and i started about the sametime and ive watched u learn and pass on so much usefull information and ive seen u overcome alot u even have ur training gear off ......Giz man u really advanced fast wish i cud do the things with my heli u have done already...i still have training gear on all my helis but i wont for much longer.....I myself almost throw in the towell but my frnd Scott told me chill out bro! ....so i say u guys have come a long way in a shorter time than me, keep it up DJ

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/28/2009 5:52 PM   
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Thanks, DJ. You're a good friend, bro. But don't discount what you've done or will do. I think for us and a lot of other people, this is a hobby of hard knocks. I think at our ages we're old dogs learning new tricks. I do firmly believe if I had kept up on video games (hell, I used to write them!) that the hand/eye coordination would be much better than it is, now. I think the younger enthusiasts have a distinct advantage but I don't think for a minute that advantage can't be overcome. I just know it's going to take effort and more simulator time.

So, on to somewhat brighter subjects.

I rebuilt what I could rebuild today. While checking the main bearings, I found them to be notchy so out they came. Since I don't have the elevator servo and the tail part that broke in stock, the order has been placed and I'm grounded until then. On the bright side, I've also got a different tail servo (Futaba 9650) and K&B tail blades coming in. I haven't been totally happy with the tail staying locked in so I'm hoping this will do the trick. After watching the pro's yesterday, I know the tail needs work. So, after a week of not ordering anything for the helicopter, I kind of blew that out of the water over the last two days!

Scott


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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/28/2009 10:29 PM   
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Scott, sorry to hear about your crash. Maybe I better not fly this week as they come in 3's. That is unless DJ decides to be #3, lol.

Gizmo, I don't think I have all the parts you need. Are you sure that the tail hub and yoke are damaged, or is it maybe a bent tail output shaft causing the wobble? I don't have a hub or yoke. Also, the main gear does not come with the OWB so I am not sure if I have one, would have to look. I do have the tool to remove and install the bearing.

I have the Grandson today, but will check back in later this evening when I get a chance to go through my parts and see what I have for sure. Since I have 5 helis I have a huge box full of different brands of spare parts that I will have to look through.

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 1:30 AM   
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Yeah, the bearings inside the tail yoke are bent ever so slightly. The tail hub is very obviously bent, no doubt about it . I think I what I am going to do is order the parts from KA-Planes tonight and have them shipped to my grandparents place and hope that it arrives by thursday or so. Does Ka-planes sell the part to install/remove the bearing? I'm not sure what that would be called.

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 1:44 AM   
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Giz, its called a one way bearing removal tool, their only a few dollars and worth having....hush Jerry lol...i flew planes and helis today had a great day...got to do the test flights on four new planes...three of which im writing reviews on...no major mishaps other than slighly bent landing gears...i know its off subject but heres my electric rc plane flightline...pic was taken today ...here r the links to a couple of my flight reviews http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8854476/tm.htm http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8872143/tm.htm DJ

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 4:43 AM   
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Wow, DJ, you fly so many planes, it's great!! I did consider whether I should get a plane to fly, but I still think Heli will be more interesting to play with, no regret.

Gizmo, you are progressing so fast even can do loops and roll. For your crash, I am a bit doubt that the tail rotor hub and one way bearing can be bent, probably my crashes were not that serious as you had. The parts that I found it bent in crash are the tail output shaft and the screws inside the tail rotor grips(tighten to tail rotor hub). One way bearing is covered by the main gear set, I think the crash impact should damage the plastic main gear or bend the main shaft instead of the owb. Again, I never crashed so serious before, above is just my thought.

Keat


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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 5:28 AM   
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Keat thats just my electrics i got a bunch of nitros too...heres a few pics of some of my helis....

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 5:53 AM   
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This is how I tested to see if my OWB is bent or damaged. I suppose its not conclusive since it could be a bend in the plastic gear, but I do not believe this to be the case.



and this is how I tested the bearings in my tail yoke. My question for you guys is: Is it possible to replace the bearings in the tail yoke without having to replace the whole thing? Does the bearing removal tool work on anything with a bearing?



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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 4:45 PM   
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Hi Gizmo,

Thanks for posting the video's, they help a lot.  Here's what I see and I'll explain why.

You're not testing the one way bearing properly.  You have to test the assembly which includes the tail/autorotation gear.  You just assemble it, and install the deadman's bolt through the autorotation sleeve and the shaft.  Then you see if the assembly will only turn one way.  Next, you hold on to the main gear and spin the tail/autorotation gear.  If you hear anything but a smooth sound, the bearing is bad.  If there is binding the bearing is bad.  'What I see is a wobbling gear.  If the OWB was bent (almost impossible), there would be binding on the sleeve.  You see, the sleeve is locked.  It doesn't turn, it provides the surface for the OWB to do its thing.   What I would do is get the OWB tool and replace the gear set.  Keep your sleeve because it looks good to me. 

The yoke bearing.  I think the culprit is most likely a bent or damaged tail output shaft.  You didn't say if you had to replace the link arm but rest assured, that's the weak part in the scheme of things and it breaks.  That's what I'm waiting on right now, the part that is.  If the bearing is bad, you can just slide the assembly on the shaft (don't worry about the guides) and put some side pressure on it as you spin it.  You may feel some notchiness.  If the bearing is in the yoke incorrectly, the whole assembly will wobble if rotated without the sliders, but it won't bind as you have demonstrated; put together, with the guides, it will bind.    This is a bearing removal where you're going to have to heat the metal part and press the bearing out.  It's most like one of those removal's that will damage the bearing.  I remember making my yoke assembly; the bearing had to be pressed in.  Honestly, I've never had one go bad (not that it can't go bad).  I have had binding but it was the tail output shaft being slightly bent in combination with a worn sleeve.  Bearings like the one in the yoke assembly usually break before they bend, get notchy, get tight, or show visible damage.  

Hope this helps, 

Scott
 

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/29/2009 5:13 PM   
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You're probably right on the main gear. The OWB does seem to function correctly in only turning one way, and not having any odd sounds coming from it. I'll find out for sure once I get my OWB tool.

As for the tail yoke, I first considered the link arm to be the problem, but since rotating the yoke itself without moving anything else (not even the output shaft) causes friction (besides I forgot to mention that I can hear some noise coming from the yoke when spun, and I spun the output shaft via the tail belt very fast and there is absolutely no wobble there, I'm still going with the yoke bearings as being the culprit....of course thats what I'm hoping for since I already placed my order with Ka-planes and it is going to be shipped directly to my grandparents...

I'll let ya guys know how the repair goes once I get down there and get the parts.

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/30/2009 12:25 AM   
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So I determined the main shaft is bent so I am trying to remove it. Unfortunately I'm having a heck of a time getting the shaft out of the head. I took out the screw at the top but its like its glued in there. Is there any technique to releasing this thing from the head?

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/30/2009 12:49 AM   
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No special technique that I know of, Gizmo.  Since your head is all metal, locktight may have came off the dead bolt (throught the head and shaft) and penetrated between the head and shaft.  If that's the case, a little shot of heat will break it loose.  Make sure you use blue locktight on all metal/metal screws you remove when you put things back together. The head on your helicopter is different the head on a BH500, but it's the same assembly/disassembly.  

Just to give you a bit more confidence in Ka-planes, if I order before noon on Monday, I usually have the parts by Wednesday.  They're good. 

Scott

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/30/2009 1:06 AM   
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Another thought on the sleeve that slides over the tail output shaft.  It is screwed into the assembly that holds the tail links.  It may be in there a bit crooked, and the ends, especially the slotted end may be slightly burred.  If it's burred, it will act exactly how you describe.  I know because I've burred one or two. :-) I deburred by using a dremel and the connical grinding tool to lightly (very lightly) grind out the burr. 

Scott

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/30/2009 5:25 AM   
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Thanks, I actually figured out how to get the main shaft out just as you made that post. I used a different method though. I took the old bent flybar and put it through the hole in at the bottom of the main shaft and used it like a handle to twist the shaft out. There was a white flaky substance in there on the shaft. I found it in other places around the heli. Must be Helipro's version of loctite.

An interesting thing happened when I was testing out my new main shaft, flybar, and feathering shaft...as I spun up the heli a screw fell out from somewhere. After looking around I found it fell out from the bottom of the motor. The motor was now only being held on by one screw lol. I guess I"m lucky that didn't happen in flight. I took the whole motor out and threadlocked the two screws that hold it to that metal plate. There are 2 more holes for screws so the motor can be held on by 4 screws....I'm er going to assume they didn't fall off and it came with only 2 screws....oh yeah and when I was taking the motor off the pinion fell off....threadlocked that back on too :-D Dodged a bullet there.

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/30/2009 8:05 AM   
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Yep, that white stuff is thread lock.  And the motor is actually held on by two bolts, so it's cool you found the one that fell out.  Welcome to bullet dodging 101! :-)  I have to say, I've never seen a head thread locked on, though.  It's a first.  I do wonder why there isn't a flat on the motor shaft.  I never had pinions go loose until I got the new motor.  The stock motor that came with my helicopter had a flat spot.  I'm hesitant to grind one on it because of shaft balance.   I hope your rebuild now takes off!   In my case, my parts should be here in the afternoon (I work nights, too) so it won't get done until the next morning.   Continued good luck!

Scott


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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 6/30/2009 9:47 PM   
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Wow Giz that bullet u dodged cud of turned into a grenade....glad to see everybodies working on there rebuilds now...im setting up my helis in my dx6i again now...gonna go back to test flights on them this evening i hope.......

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/1/2009 4:26 AM   
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Hey Gizmo, sorry that we couldn't get together to get that bird back in the air. Just never really knew for sure what parts you needed since it seems you are still kinda in the diagnostic mode,lol. Hope you got all the parts ordered that you need. I had the grandson go through the parts box Sunday night and take out all the packages that said Helipro on them. Barring a few items, I have almost enough to build another heli. ( Which btw, I think I am gonna do that since Ka don't sell artf kits no more ) Anyhow, let us know how it goes.

And btw, DJ, I Am Not working on a rebuild right now cause I ain't flying/crashing. Too many honey-do projects right now, plus the weather hasn't been too good lately. The wife wants to sell the house and get another one outta the city. Fine with me , the one she took me to look at had 2.5 acres of cleared/mowed property, ='my own personal flying field', lol. Best part was the price, less than $50,000.

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/1/2009 4:55 AM   
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Thats fine, I worked with a friend of mine and we got all of the head stuff fixed with the spare parts I already had. The rest that I ordered are headed to myrtle beach. I'll post how the rebuild goes when I get down there on thursday.

Yes, I can attest to it being very nice living on about 2.5 acres of mowed land....probably part of my secret to learning these heli's so fast. I have some tree's too so its a very interesting obstacle course. I crashed the hell out of my Honeybee FP in May before I got the BH. I fly the heli's every day its not windy or rainy either before work or after work depending on my schedule. I still fly the honeybee too, but I find it much harder to fly than the BH because it isn't nearly as responsive and I still crash it every few times I take it out....doesn't usually break anything to crash it though and I find it a more relaxing flight as I'm not worried about crashing it.

My next step is attaching some kind of camera to get some arial shots. I love photography and it just seems natural to me that I would attach a camera.

After THAT (mind you this is probably a few years down the road considering the expense) I want to get into this FPV flying where you fly the aircraft from a screen more than 2 miles away. I saw this video on youtube of people flying through scattered clouds and I knew that is what I want to do.

Somewhere in there I'm going to end up getting my real pilots license too. I've already logged a few instructor hours and just love it, but all this expensive stuff will have to wait until I actually get some of that stuff known as money.

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/1/2009 11:04 AM   
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Gizmo,

If you're in IT, the money will come.  I've been in the industry for over 30 years and while the money has come, it goes almost as fast as it comes.  Good luck in FL. 

Scott


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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/1/2009 6:03 PM   
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Jerry jump on that one...thats one thing im glad i got is a nice runway and flyn area here at my house...between the trees and greenhouse operations i have a 600 foot long by about 300 foot open area...the trees for the most r all down hill so i fly over them ...ive thought about flyn a plane or heli over a greenhouse but ive always worried what wud happen to the greenhouse covering if i hit it with a blade of anykind considering the speed they spin at...im getting ready to head out to my paved runway area to test fly some more planes and fly my helis too....DJ

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/2/2009 5:09 AM   
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Hope the flying went good, DJ! 

I have all the parts for my BH 500 except one...one I broke today:  the tail pitch shaft.  I broke it while putting in the new tail servo.  Oh, well... Christina at KA-planes was great, though... she told me how to go about getting it shipped overnight, so I should have it by tomorrow and once I get finished sleeping, I'll be in the air, ready to crash again!

Scott


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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/2/2009 3:44 PM   
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The flyn was outstanding, even got some video but i got some practicing i need to do on taking and editing videos before i show anybody else ...but least i know i can do it with my digital cam...having to reset all my subtrims and expos etc in my radio for the helis is a big pita...i did get the trex 450se v2 all set back in and its flyn great as always...flew my brothers blade cp...now theres a heli to stay away from yall!!! its not stable at all it dont hover for more than a second or so and even thats hard to do...

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/2/2009 5:05 PM   
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I'll have to disagree with ya olwarbirds on the blade CP. My friend has one and I flew it around a bit both in standard and idle-up mode. I thought it handeled quite nicely, very agile and had good resistance to wind.

So I finished my rebuild of the BH....took me much longer than I initially suspected. Didn't realise there was a set screw in the tail behind the tail fin that was keeping me from getting the rest of the tail off the boom....also I guess I noticed that the one way bearing in the original gear seems to have a metal sleeve around it, and the new gear doesn't seem to have that metal sleeve...the new OWB fit in the new gear nicely though and works fine. I set the belt tention and I think I have the tail servo dialed in good now. I put loctite on everything that goes into metal....just to be sure, I do NOT put loctite threadlock on screws that go into nuts?

Anyhow, I flew it and it seems fine. I was so sure I'd spin it up and it would just fly appart. What else should I check for before I start pulling crazy stunts again? Not that I'm too keen on trying anything too crazy again for awhile ;-)

P.S. I may not have needed everything that I ordered...the bronze sleeve that came with the new tail yoke had so much resistance on the tail output shaft that I took it back off and used the old one which slides nicely across it. I think I could have just ordered the bearings that go in the tail yoke, but I can't figure out how to get the old ones out so probably best I got a whole new unit. Also, I didn't see any "burrs" as Scott was describing, although maybe I am not supposed to be able to see them visually...is there something I'm supposed to do to prepare the new bronze sleeve so that it slides nicely onto the tail output shaft?

I'm learning quickly, but I can tell I still have quite a lot to learn. Having fun though!

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/2/2009 5:12 PM   
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Subtrims... I wish I had them.  I go through about 10 servo arms each time I replace a servo.  So, DJ... easy way... Set your normal pitch curve in the first two places to 50, 50, then throw your throttle all the way to the bottom.  This will get your servos at what they think is the mid point.  Check to make sure the arms at the holes are at  90 degrees.  If they're slightly off... adjust the subtrim to get them there.  Then you're set with the servo's.  If you have to do any adjustments, you'll have to rebind (or so I believe with a Spektrum radio).  Once that's done, you'll have to re-level the swash plate.  I'll tell you bro.  Doing it without subtrims sucks big time,  You're lucky! 

I can't wait to see the video's, bro! 

Still waiting on the tail pitch control arm.  Should be here soon, though.  I have everything else done except balancing the new blades and setting pitch. 

Scott

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RE: The Better HeliPro Black Hawk - 7/2/2009 6:34 PM   
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Yup the subtrim feature was one of many reasons i went with the spektrum radio...i cant even begin to imagine having to set up a plane without and to have to set up a heli on a radio without subtrims id of given up on helis long ago....ive got it now Scott since u hooked me up with all the settings...the manual isnt the best and it dont even begin to explain what u need to know to set up a heli on it i guess it was just to much info to have to put in a manual...

Giz im glad someone can fly em i cant....now my blade 400 is sweet did a few upgrades...changed servos to hs55's on cyclic and a hs5065 on rudder and i use the stock gyro it works just fine i also put on a bit of bling too cnc rotor head, speed up gear for tail rotor and i use the align 325mm woodies and it is a very stable heli for the money...not a trex but hey its about half the price too... and so r my cx's great helis, i wish eflight made a 500 size heli id buy it...

Scott, i have a futaba 9650s on my rudder on the trex450se v2 its a nice servo but one thing i do have to say about it is the size and weight in comparison to the hs 5065mg i use on the other helis..its about twice as big as the hs and it did give me some cg issues to correct...but not a big prob...i just know that in the future im gonna go with the hs till i get into a bigger heli then yes the 9650 will be used on it...i know what ur doing scott ur building up stuff for that 550 or 600 we been talking about LOL

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