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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 9/24/2007 8:54 AM   
Ryan Smith


 

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From: Champaign, IL, USA
Status: offline 		As an aside, I install doors and architectural hardware for a living and I can vouch for the stoutness of the solid core, fire rated doors. They don't necessarily need to be fire rated as all the core comprises of a fire rated door is what amounts to sheetrock. As long as the core is solid they generally won't warp. Generally doors used for commercial purposes tend to be significantly stouter than those used in residential applications. They weigh about 150 pounds a piece for a 3'x7' door, not light, but certainly not unbearable. One person can lift them without any trouble.

Also Troy, great job so far on the build. I flew the prototype for its second flight and certainly surpasses all of my expectations. Provided there not have been motor trouble at the WSRC contest a few weeks ago, a production version would have flown in FAI.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 9/24/2007 9:15 AM   
majortom-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		Zippi, as I look at your photo, it looks like there's a bit of a twist in the fuselage, a few degrees in the clockwise direction, I would say. I've had models with a bit of this characteristic before, and it has never been a major problem. It's much more important that your horizontal stab and wing are in parallel planes, which looks good from your photo. If I had a model in the same condition as what your photo shows, my only concern would be to line up the vertical stab to be perpendicular to the horizontal stab. That might require a bit of opening up one side of the slot for the vertical stab, and maybe shimming it or otherwise bracing it while the epoxy cures when you glue it in. A slight twist in the fuselage will have probably no visible influence in flight if the horizontal tail is parellel to the wing, and vertical tail is perpendicular to the horizontal.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 9/25/2007 8:58 PM   
badbradgraphics


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Troy, Rusty, and Zippi. You all have asked me to come up with a graphics package for this plane, cause well.....lets say the scheme could be improved upon....LOL I attached a photo of what I'm thinking the package will be. I know that Dave at Piedmont already has some of the Focus sport logos I designed so I went with that . I know its JR but this design is for Troy's plane. The color on the black wing slashes will be metalic silver to match the caopy and the Logo. The logo is black and red and yellow on the metalic silver so it all starts to keep the scheme of the plane. Hope you guys like it.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 9/26/2007 3:30 PM   
Zippi



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Status: offline 		badbradgraphics,

Looks good as far as I'm concerned. Can I get my local Hobby shop for the wing? What will the price be?


< Message edited by Zippi -- 9/27/2007 1:03 AM >

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 9/30/2007 5:19 AM   
badbradgraphics


 

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Status: offline 		Its Saturday night and I finally got my hands on the Focus Sport. I will get it measured up this weekend ( i hope) and finalise the graphics package. Brad

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 9/30/2007 6:05 AM   
Troy Newman


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Bad Brad...

I have been tied up this week with some family issues.

I figured if you got your hands on Rusty's model that would make life easier.

Troy

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/1/2007 3:38 AM   
Zippi



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Status: offline 		Troy,

I'm to the point where I'm ready to install the radio gear. Have you put any thought into what oz torque servos would be ideal? I have some Digital HS-5645MG servos not in use but they may be over kill. As soon as Bad Brad gets the graphics package done I'll be putting in my order.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/1/2007 9:26 AM   
Troy Newman


 

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Status: offline 		I have been away from the Focus Sport a few days. Sorry about that. I’m going to be getting with it over the next few days. To be honest I have about double or triple the time in writing the build thread compared to doing the work. The model has gone together very well so far.

Now that the model is mostly assembled its time to discuss the servos, linkages, and optional things within the airframe. We need to get this settled so we can get parts ordered. After discussion of the parts and choices I will give you guys a list of parts to order from Central Hobbies. This will include some extra stuff like Hyde mount if you choose and also spinner sizes and some extra goodies to finish it up. Again I’m giving my advice on this stuff and will back up my choice with my opinion and why I feel the way I do about the choice. Your choices may vary depending on your needs and decisions. I’m going to try and give you some good choices that are less over all $$$ but will still perform well. Will it perform as good over time as the EXPERT setup…in some cases yes and in others no but we want to discuss why some the choices are being made.. End result it will perform well. There are good choices in cutting costs and there are not so good of choices.

The idea behind a pattern model is to get it trimmed out and have the model stay trimmed out as long as possible. Trimming an aerobatic model is a never ending process. Things are constantly changing and you need to keep on top of the model. Many of these choice in equipment will help the model perform the same on flight 10 as flight 100, as flight 500 and even flight 1000. This means that wear from vibration can be your enemy. The accuracy of your system and your flying really comes down to the linkages, and servos you choose. If you choose a bargain brand servo because it saves a couple bucks that’s fine just realize that servo may not last as long as the higher priced servo in the same environment. Will it do the task properly? In some cases yes it will, but it will change and degrade quicker over time. Another thing to realize is that just because the servo moves the surface doesn’t always mean its going to work the best for precision flying. On our pattern models torque of the servos is a concern but is minimal for the most part. If you follow the linkage setup that I will be doing once we make these choices on servo the mechanical advantage and symmetry of the linkage will benefit the servo. This means that you don’t really need the strong servo as we are not going to be moving control surfaces far. The control throws will be small deflections and the result is the servo will have a leg up on the controlling the surface. By using a longer control horn on the surface and a smaller servo arm we will give the servo the advantage. The point I’m trying to make is that everybody always looks at a servos torque numbers. Instead I look for the servos performance and how accurate the servo is under the continued use we are going to give this model. The goal is to set it and have it last as long as possible. This way our models trim doesn’t change or drift with age. We want to minimize the results of vibration, and we want the servos to be as accurate and precise as possible.

For servos the minimum requirement in my mind for the servos in this size model is above the standard sized servo. A premium sport or high torque sport servo is a the minimum needed in a 90-120sized model. The model is larger and has way more power than your standard sized 40-60 size sport model and the loads are going to be greater. So here is my personal opinion on servos. Servos will have multiple levels of performance. The Ball Bearing versions will be smoother and tend to be more accurate. They will last longer under vibration compared to the non-BB versions. A coreless motor servo will be more precise than a non-coreless motor servo. The coreless servo will also tend to last longer as the servo motors are better under vibration and they maintain their accuracy longer. A digital servo will hold accuracy and be stronger at holding it position better than a non-digital servo. The servo market today has a huge selection of servos that have nearly every possible combination of these features. The higher priced servos will be the digital-coreless, and have ball bearing support for the output shaft. Let me say this up front. You can almost never have too much power, too fast, or too precise a servo. The choices that you make on servos will really affect the way the model flies. That doesn’t mean you need to spend $100 per servo…but you should know the choices you make will affect the flying quality of the model.

I’m going to do a Good-Better-Expert setup for servo choices. I will also let you know which servos I’m using on my model. You can mix or match the servo choices in these G-B-E setups to suit your needs. Below I’ll discuss the servos needs of each surface and then we’ll get to the choices.

Ailerons are very important. Probably in most cases the most important servos. A poor choice on ailerons can affect not only rolling maneuvers but loop tracking, and even flying straight and level. For ailerons I would suggest the most accurate servo you can afford. It doesn’t need to be super strong but accuracy is very important. I would say for ailerons torque is a minor concern. You want to have accuracy to help loop tracking maintain level flight and to have accuracy in rolling maneuvers. This is the place, if any, servos should be digital the wings should. When pulling a loop the servos need to hold those ailerons as accurately as possible. Digital servos may have a lower overall torque rating but the fact that digitals servos are better at holding position this is why the digitals thrive in this application. Does it need to be a digital? No…but it needs to be an accurate and precise servo. For ailerons the order of importance is precision, speed, and then power.

Rudder servo choice is the one surface where we need to have some power. I think it’s probably a safe bet to say we want to get up near 90-100in-oz or torque. We might be able to get away a little less if the servo is a digital as it holding power is better. But for the most part on rudder for a pattern model we want some power. The servo should be precise but it’s not as critical as ailerons. For rudder needs power first, precision second and speed last. This is where an older generation high torque analog servo will work very well.

Elevators on this model are a place to play with some choices. Since the model is setup stock for a dual elevator servo…chances are power is not going to be an issue. A single elevator servo on model like this would be around 50-70in-oz. So by the time you add two servos one for each side the result is just about any servo could work for power. However since we want to loop straight with dual elevator servos we want precision, precision, precision. We will need to match up two servos to move the same all the time. This will change as the model ages and vibration creeps in. Speed and power are not super critical back here but we do want the precision. A speedy servo will aid in snaps and making minor pitch corrections. The result is precision, speed, and power in the important order.

Throttle is also an important control. In today’s world of pattern flying managing the throttle is probably the most important thing you can learn. Even guys that are at the top levels can struggle with this. For me the throttle servo needs to be precise, power is not a big deal but needs to be there. Speed is a really low priority on the throttle servo. The 4 stroke engines have such a quick and clean throttle response that servo speed is not a big deal and there are many pilots that will actually choose a slower servo to give them a smoother throttle feel. So the order is precision, power, speed. Another option is many pilots prefer an analog servo on throttle. This means that the vibration of the engine and being directly connected to it won’t cause the servo to fight itself to death. I’m not one of those that feel what ever moves the linkage is a good throttle servo. In most cases you can downsize to a small servo, but I caution that the throttle servo will take the most abuse from vibration. The smaller the servo the more vibration will affect it over the long life of our model.

The next thing to consider is gear sets. A metal gear set is strong but will wear with vibration. The nylon gears will handle the vibration well and this model will not have the high flight loads from a larger 3D style model. So we don’t want metal gear servos. The nylon gears are plenty strong and durable under vibrations. JR now makes some of their digital high end servos with metal or nylon gear sets. The “SA” tag on the end of the servo means “Special Application” and denotes the nylon geared versions of these servos. You want nylon geared servos on this model..



< Message edited by Troy Newman -- 10/1/2007 9:27 AM >

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/1/2007 9:30 AM   
Troy Newman


 

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Status: offline 		If you will notice the main thing I can say about servos is precision.


Good basic setup with precision and performance.
Maybe not the best setup for hundreds and hundreds of flights but the servos can be serviced and replaced. On day one this setup will be close to the Expert setup in performance. On flight 200 it might need a little attention to tighten things up a bit. This could mean new servos to get that day One feel back.

Ail -- JR 821 digital
Rud – JR 821 digital (little on the low side power)at 72in-oz but will work
Or JR 4721, good strong servo non digital but is strong and precise.

Elevator – JR 821 Digital these are “standard sized” but will work well. If you convert to a single elevator servo this 821 will also work very well.

Throttle – JR 537


BETTER setup.
Not going to the high dollar digital servos but a set of really good precision servos that will make the model fly well on the analog servo budget. With these servo choices the model will last longer and approach the precision and feel of the more expensive all digital setup. This choice will save some bucks and still give you very good control and precision of the surfaces. Basically these servos below were the tops before the digital servos hit the market. They are not really old technology its just they are a different application. Many of the current digital servos in the JR lineup are just digital versions of these popular and high performance analog servos. So you can save a couple bucks get the long life of the top of the line servo. The only thing you sacrifice is the digitals precision and holding power. This setup will perform a little better than the Good setup on day one but will maintain better over time and will be as close as you can get without spending the extra bucks on the digital compliment.

Ailerons – JR 8101
Rudder – JR 4721
Elevator –JR 3121 Mini size for dual servos saves a little weight
JR 8101 if you convert to a single elevator servo
Throttle – JR 537



EXPERT setup. This is the best servo setup. Digital precision coreless motors with nylon gears sets.

Ailerons -- JR 9411SA, a little smaller and lighter than a standard servo. But still great precision, speed and power. Saves about 0.75oz per servo and has plenty of speed, precision and power. This the servo I use on my 2 meter models on the ailerons.

Rudder -- JR 8411SA, the king of the 120 sized models. 155in-oz of power is great, the nylon gears and digital qualities make this servo precise and handle the vibration well. No problem with any pattern rudder even the 2 meter models on this servo.

Elevators -- JR 3421SA smaller size actually called a mini servo. They are precise being digital and coreless and the power is there at about 65in-oz. each these servos are lighter and weigh about the same a single normal size precision servo like the 8411SA.

For a single elevator servo application:

JR 8231(already nylon gears) super precise servo. 90in-oz and good speed.
JR 8411SA also a good choice here. Stronger, and faster, but still precise.

Throttle – JR 821
JR 3421SA Digital Mini servo. Extreme overkill, I use these on my 2M models. I like the precision of this servo for a pattern throttle servo. They also handle the vibration of the engine on a soft mount very well. And save a little weight over a normal sized servo.


My choices for the Focus Sport.

Ailerons (2) 9411SA
Elevator (2) 3421SA
Rudder 8411SA
Throttle 821 Digital

Troy

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/1/2007 9:49 AM   
Troy Newman


 

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Status: offline 		Linkages and Horns

The kit comes with 6-32 bolts for control horns. These are effective and light. Not too much to screw up and they are fully adjustable. We don’t want to use a horn that doesn’t allow for height adjustment. Remember we are going to fine tune two ailerons servos, and dual elevator servos. We want maximum adjustability. There are many horns out there that are anodized gold, or red, pink or purple but they don’t allow for adjustment to their height. If the control surface is not hinged absolutely perfectly in the center or the control surface is sanded a little more on one side than the other you are building in a differential control travel from one side to the other. If you can use a threaded horn like the 6-32 bolt you can make very fine tuning adjustments to get the surfaces working in unison. In this case a single revolution on a 6-32 or 3mm bolt can make a huge difference in trimming a model. This is why I don’t use the fancy aluminum anodized horns with no adjustment even though they have “BB” connection.

Next is the clevis connection discussion. A metal pin clevis is a must on this size model. As shown below these new clevis links from Dubro are pretty good. The aileron adjusters (little nylon tabs included in the kit) and the dubro clevis make a good connection. On the first day of flying this system is as tight as any. However it will start to wear with vibration. Over time you will need to replace the clevis and the nylon adjuster as the metal clevis pin will wear the hole in the nylon adjuster to be a larger hole. This will give you slop in your linkage. It all depends on the model and setup as to how quickly things will wear. What happens is the linkage will wear slowly and you will not be able to tell it is doing it. Then a couple hundred flights down the road you just can’t fly very well. The model is not as locked in and doesn’t feel as good as it did when it was new. In pattern flying practice is important. However if you model is always changing then you can’t practice enough….the plane is different all the time. I want you to realize that the good setup will work, but requires more time on the back end. The cheaper cost comes with a work load later on. I always get to the point where I think its me and not the model when something is wearing out. So I try harder to fix the problem with my flying. The reality is that the model changed on me and my practice time and effort is going to correct the changes in the model, and not the geometry in the sky. So the result is I was some practice time trying to figure out if it’s the model or me. When I finally get around to fixing the model I lost that time I could have spent practicing. Instead the model was down for a few days while I start over on the linkages. Then there is the new trimming work that goes along with the changes in linkages.

For me I prefer to set the thing up and not worry about changing clevis and adjusters later on. Once you change things you will have to re-trim your model almost from scratch. So I prefer the MK clevis links. These are Ball Bearing connections. Zero Slop, friction free and they become enclosed by the clevis to help keep dirt out. The clevis pin is a 2mm bolt and you can place a 2mm hex nut on the back side for a safety. These clevis links cost a bit more but you will likely never have to replace one. They simply don’t wear during vibration. The good news is these clevises can go to your next model if you have an accident and loose a model or…you upgrade to a better or newer model these clevises are re-usable.

For control Horns the MK aluminum horns are a bit of bling-bling for your model. They look really good. They are a shade lighter weight than the 6-32 bolts. They still have a good bit of adjustability. However you need to purchase the right size to suit the need of the surface. MK makes a Large, Med and Small sizes. On the 6-32 bolts you just twist the adjuster connection lower and cut the bolt off. The MK horns are likely a bit stronger since their shape distributes the load better at the wider base. The 6-32 bolts are plenty strong though for the application and this is what I will use on this Focus Sport. I plan to use the BETTER linkage setup in the photo. This way I never have to touch the clevis links but the 6-32 bolts will perform the same as the MK horns. So this keeps the cost down a little. You can deck out the entire model with MK horns for under $25. So it’s not really expensive, but you don’t need them functionally. The 6-32 bolts will perform as well. The MK horns add a classy look for just a couple extra bucks. The choice is yours, it’s not a precision choice on the horns just a cosmetic one.

The clevis choice is a performance one…either use the dubro metal pin clevis or the MK clevis for durability and smoothness. My choice here is the “Better” Setup in the photo. This gives me the friction free setup of the MK clevis and its long life span with saving a few bucks on the control horns.


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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/1/2007 10:04 AM   
Troy Newman


 

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Status: offline 		Pushrods and servo connections

For pushrods you need a minimum of 4-40 setup is using standard steel type pushrods.
This is for the elevator and the aileron pushrods. Any model in this 90-120size should have a least a 4-40 hardware.

Central Hobbies makes some CF pushrods with Titanium ends. They make 3 basic sizes a 1/8”, 5/32”, and 3/16”. For our pattern models and the short runs we will be using the 1/8” CF rods will work great. These pushrod kits come with various thread sized titanium ends. I prefer the 2mm ends because they have the finest thread. This allows for the smallest level of adjustment. Since the ends are made from titanium they are stronger than the steel and hold up well in the environment. These CF pushrod setups are super light and very stiff. I think they are stiffer and more rigid than normal 4-40 steel pushrods.


NOTE: 2mm or even 2-56 steel pushrods are not adequate for this model. If normal steel pushrods are being used you need to have 4-40 rods.


On the servo connection end you can use a clevis like the dubro or a simple ball link. You don’t want the clip on ball links. You want the bolt through kind like used on helicopters. This can be installed with thread locker and they will not fail under vibration. There are lots of choices. I sometimes use the Dubro versions. Since I’m using 2mm threads on my titanium ends, I like to use the Dual Axis rod ends from Northern Model Products. These are very light and extremely durable. We’ll talk about setting them up as you can get carried away with tightening the bolt and crush the little ceramic ball. But these are probably the best for friction free and the ability to pivot and rotate with the pushrod.

My advice here is to really use a ball link on the servo side. This will be for safe operation and also for a longer life span as they will not get loose with vibration like a clevis in the servo arm hole can.

Troy


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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/1/2007 10:25 AM   
Troy Newman


 

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Status: offline 		This model comes with wheels, tail wheel, wheel pants, and so on. The spinner size is 3 inch I recommend the FAI shape as I like the looks better.

Now the question is engine mount.

The kit comes with a hard mount. This will work well and I plan to show the install with this mount.

We did talk above about servos and linkage and vibration. Glow engines this size regardless of 2 stroke or 4 stroke have a bunch more vibration than we would like. There are a few "soft" mount choices out there and if you feel you want to stray from a Hyde mount then proceed at your own risk.

I my opinion Merle Hyde makes the best engine mounts for the application. Merle suggests a Type "A" mount as it doesn't need a nose ring per Merle's specs. I always prefer to have a nose ring in the model. I don't like the Nose ring Incorporated mounts so I'm going to trust Merle on this one and try the "A" type mount. I know that many folks are using this mount on the Focus 2 with success in conjunction with 2 stroke engines and I know of a few guys using them on 4 strokes. So this will be a bit of an experiment for me with the "A" type mount versus the "AR" that requires a Nose Ring. The problem with the Focus is that the cowling is not sufficient to support the nose ring and its difficult to get in there and build a nose ring mount....so the type "A" mount will do the trick. Its better than the hard mount on the airframe, and I have had good reports from friends about it.

I'm going to make a new thrust block so that I can swap motor mounts. This will tell me what affect the Type A mount has on the vibration. The better the mount is at vibration the better we are going to be with protecting our expensive servos and linkages.

If you are hard mounting your engine and using normal clevises then to keep the model in tip top shape you will need to performance a change out of the clevises and adjusters sooner than on the soft mount.

So this is a not so performance related issue but it a performance issue over time. Also the engine will be much quieter on the soft mount. We can discuss the Hyde mount that Merle Hyde designed and how it works if you like. Again this mount costs a few extra bucks up front but the mounts will last a long long time and you can take them to your next model. I have a Hyde mount that was built in 1994 and its still working today. In fact we flew it on a friends model last week.

Troy Newman

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/2/2007 2:47 AM   
Zippi



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Status: offline 		Troy,

We all appreciate the time and effort it takes you to post all this valuable information. It's like you have two projects going at the same time, you’re Focus Sport and the thread. I’m hoping to have this project finished in a couple weeks so I can get a lot of flights in before colder weather sets in.


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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/7/2007 3:31 AM   
Zippi



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Status: offline 		Since I won’t be putting hundreds of flights on my plane I decided to use the supplied mount and hard mount my Saito 125. The Saito 125 fit nicely inside the cowl and with the cut out in the front of the cowl and a cut out on the bottom it should run pretty cool I hope. I also decided to use a Great Planes 1-Piece Black Nylon Spinner with Aluminum Backplate to help balance out the black on the wings. I contacted Bad Brad Graphics about the graphic package for the Focus but he hasn't got it finalized just yet.

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< Message edited by Zippi -- 10/8/2007 3:40 PM >

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/14/2007 2:22 AM   
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Status: offline 		Heres Rusty's Focus Sport with the graphics package applied. Notice the leaves on the ground. The flying season in wisconsin is coming to an end !!!!

ZIPPI, Did I send you the ABC hobby logo, or did I forget it. Let me know.

Brad

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/14/2007 5:12 AM   
Zippi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: badbradgraphics

Heres Rusty's Focus Sport with the graphics package applied. Notice the leaves on the ground. The flying season in wisconsin is coming to an end !!!!

ZIPPI, Did I send you the ABC hobby logo, or did I forget it. Let me know.

Brad


Yep....you forgot the ABC Hobbycraft logo. These graphics look great. If you have never had any of Bad Brad Graphics then you don't know what good graphics looks like. Nice job.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/14/2007 6:04 AM   
Zippi



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Status: offline 		Here are a couple pics of the servo and control horm installation. The Elevator servos required 1/8" spacers and the Ailerons 1/4" spacers.


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< Message edited by Zippi -- 10/15/2007 2:07 AM >

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 4:02 AM   
majortom-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		Zippi, I hope you won't be offended if I say that your set-up looks a lot more like 3D throws than pattern (speaking specifically of your elevators and ailerons). My pattern planes, and most all of those I see in the pits, are set up with very short servo arms, often just the servo wheels, and long control horn arms.

(The plane does look gorgeous, by the way!)

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 5:12 AM   
Zippi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: majortom-RCU

Zippi, I hope you won't be offended if I say that your set-up looks a lot more like 3D throws than pattern (speaking specifically of your elevators and ailerons). My pattern planes, and most all of those I see in the pits, are set up with very short servo arms, often just the servo wheels, and long control horn arms.

(The plane does look gorgeous, by the way!)

I'm never offended by what others have to say. Thats how you learn. They are standard servo arms and the throws are set up per the manual. What is the advantage of having a short servo arm?

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 6:03 AM   
majortom-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		The advantages are leverage for one, resolution for two and lower slop for three. The leverage gives the advantage to the servo over the control surface, resisting both blowback and flutter. The leverage is achieved at a reduction in the effective speed of the response at the control surface to the signal from the stick, but I've never known anyone to complain that their control response was too slow.

The resolution comes in by setting your ATV or end-point (depending on the terminology favored by your TX manufacturer) to maximum, or pretty close to maximum, which will give you servo rotation of 60 degrees in either direction. By using the full range of servo rotation and compensating for that extra movement by coming in with your pushrod connection to a shorter arm on the servo, you will also be able to nudge in small corrections that should be less visible to the judges and enable smoother figures in your maneuvers.

To the extent that gear slop contributes to the chain of linkage slop, and that really should be the main source of slop if you're using decent connectors and horns, then using the full range of servo rotation to give the desired control surface movement can reduce your slop by a factor of maybe five. That's good.

I don't have a Focus Sport, so I don't know what they recommend for throws, but pattern generally operates with conservative throws of maybe 10 degrees on elevators and 15 degrees on ailerons. This would be low rates in most cases, but I've gone lower on some planes. If you're setting dual rates, your high rates I would expect would be a little higher, but probably not much. Elevator at 12 degrees and ailerons at 18 degrees would be high by my experience. If you rig your connections so that full stick gives you 60 degrees rotation in the servo but only 10 degrees movement of the elevator, you now have maximized your flutter resistance and smoothness/precision of control surface movement. Your servos should last a lot longer before needing gears and pots replaced. You should have much better control of your airplane.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 2:46 PM   
Zippi



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Status: offline 		majortom-RCU,

Thanks for the info. I never really thought about the setup, I just set it up the way I always do on all my planes but what you say makes a lot of since. looks like I'll be cutting the servo arms shorter.


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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 4:30 PM   
majortom-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		I've been doing this so long I forget where I originally picked it up. However I do remember reading a pretty good article on the resolution business somewhere in the Horizon or Hangar 9 technical tips. I've seen other references here and there, but the Hangar 9 thing was the most comprehensive explanation I can recall. Anyway I started doing it after I began practicing pattern but before my first contest, and it made a tremendous difference for me, gave me the confidence to go demonstrate my lack of skill to a couple dozen experts.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 7:20 PM   
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Status: offline 		If memory serves me, Troy did an excellent series of articles on control linkage setup in the K-factor sometime back. Another reason to join the NSRCA <g>


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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 8:22 PM   
Mastertech



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Status: offline 		Degrees of deflection are basically useless unless one knows how that measurement was taken. I use one of Jerry Budd's devices that is very accurate but only when used properly. If I just placed the unit behind the airplane and took a reading those readings would differ from another setup unless the distance was the same. This is why Jerry placed the rod on the device to make sure the device was properly spaced from the control surface everytime.

So 10 degrees using one of Jerry's devices properly set up and one not set up properly would be different. The only way to accurately measure deflection is with a constant. So saying yours is at 10 degrees of deflection means nothing to anyone else unless you also include how you got the measurement. If one took the measurement directly from the control surface with an inclinometer it would be easy to reproduce for anyone else. Anything else that stood off the airplane we'd have to know the distance from the control surface.

If we use a distance (IE 3/8" throw) measurement we'd need to know where the measurement was taken from, IE the elev root or tip.

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RE: Focus Sport 110 YS Powered - 10/15/2007 10:51 PM   
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no, the angle of the surface doesn't change because of the device you are using to measure it. In my opinion as an Engineer degrees of deflection is the only universal way to measure the deflection. The reason is doesn't matter whether you read it at the tip or the root. It doesn't depend on the chord length of the surface (the width). Angles are measured in degrees.

Now Tim you are correct that you must setup your measuring device properly but this is a given for any reading of any measurement you take in anything. The accuracy of your reading depends on your choices and how well your tool is used.

However Degrees of deflection is the only common method to use to accurately get it setup. Any linear length reading must be accompanied by a reference however the angle deflection needs no reference.

Angle in degrees is the only thing you need to know. It doesn't matter if the surface is 10" wide or 1" wide. The angle will be the same. Only when you specify a number like 3/8" at the trailing edge does it matter how big the control surface is and at what point you measure it. Its simple Trigonometry. If the surface is wider then the deflection at its TE is larger for a given angle.

If you use the angular reference then all the numbers match. 10degs at the root of the aileron is the same as 10degs at the tip. On a surface that tapers, 3/8" at the tip is not the same angle as 3/8" at the root. 10degs would be the same

If you use a device like the Budd laser meter. You will notice that the scale is graduated...meaning it is an arc, projected to a flat plate scale. The distance between 1deg and 2 degs. is not the same linear distance as between 15degs and 16degs. This is because 15 degs if a further distance away due to the arc of the surface. The reason Jerry gives you that little wire for setting the distance is because that wire is the radius length is the radius of the arc. If the scale was a protractor the scale would be curved. Since it was projected to a flat scale the angles are correct in degrees yet the linear distances change as the distance from the hinge line changes. Take a ruler and measure the distance between the lines on the Budd laser scale. As your angle gets bigger the linear distance is longer between degrees. This is because its a projected. Jerry designed the scale to simulate the curve of the protractor that had the 18" radius or what ever the radius number is.

Angular references like degree readings are much easier to relate. Are they easier to measure?
NO they are more difficult to measure because you have to understand the angle. But using angle readings you could compare two totally different models....two totally different control surfaces.

I use a Ivan's Magic gadget type device that is home made. I was taught by Tony Frakowiack to use it and its very repeatable, sets up quickly and is easy to repeat values. The angles can be repeated by anyone using any type of device to accurately measure the angle. Angles are the only thing that don't depend on the tool. The angle is the angle no matter where you read it. The problem with angles is they are very small. And the accuracy of your device comes into play. To be accurate the devise needs to be easy to setup and repeat values. The scale also needs to be large enough to read, and the weight on the surface should be a minimum.

There are numerous devices on the market today each with its own issues of accuracy and repeatability. H9 makes a digital level device and it works pretty well. Its a bit heavy. Works better on the larger model than our pattern models. The system we use only uses a very very lightweight attachment to the surface. The scale is not supported by the servo. It goes on a separate stand. This is similar to Jerry's tool, but its much easier to setup and repeat the values.

Measuring throws accurately is very important. Use a method that you feel the most comfortable with. However in repeatability angular references are the more accurate to repeat if your method is "clean". This also allows you to reference other models as well. I can take 10degs on the Jerry Budd meter, and it will read 10deg on the magic gadget setup, and it will 10degs on the H9 meter, and it will read 10degs on the CRC pendulum tool as well. Each of these systems have their own errors associated with them...but 10degs is still 10degs. If your aileron is 1/4" wider or 1/4" narrower than the original one then you control deflections will be off....the reason is your 3/8" at the root of the aileron assumes the aileron is a certain width. Well this is not always the case.

You would be surprised. I have owned about 6-8 different designs since about 2000. Its amazing that all of those different designs, used the same aileron control throws within 1/2 deg each way. And if I had measured the control throws at the trailing edge of the aileron at the root or at the tip...all 8 models would have had different values. And in some cases really different values. However when using the tool I use, they all were within 1/2deg control deflection on the ailerons. The Bipes are the only animals that are different.

Degrees of deflection is the only reference that doesn't need a reference point. 10degs is the same at the tip as 10degs is at the root of the aileron.


This argument is a little mute as everybody is going to like it different...but from an engineering standpoint the type of quantity being measured is an angle, to measure angles you use degs, radians, or other forms like hrs, min, secs to define and angle. If you have a reference then the linear elevation change of the Trailing Edge can get you there. But if no reference is available, then angular degrees is the most accurate.

It is possible to define the angle using two linear distances. The length of the moment arm and the elevation. This is how a surveyor does it. The distance out and the elevation change over that distance trig can be used to define the angle.

Its easy to make a home made tool to measure the angle, or there are numerous ones on the market that work well enough in terms of accuracy to get you there.

The absolute simplest one that still has accuracy is the H9 but it weighs a little too much for me. The CRC meters are good but the scale is small and friction in the bearing can not allow you to get really accurate repeatable numbers The CRC still has the problem of weight on the surface. The Jerry Budd thing is good weight on the surface is smaller than the others, but it is more difficult to setup. Once setup properly it is likely the most accurate. Its repeatability suffers because of the setup complexity. The Magic gadget device Tony taught me to use is the easiest I have used. Setup it quick and repeatable. The accuracy is very close to the Budd laser, and the big thing I like is the weight applied to the surface is nothing more than a couple grams.

I know that there were several articles in the KF in the early 90's regarding these tools. This is the kind of stuff that used to be in the KFactor. I guess we are all on our own regarding these devices now. There are lots of website that have guys profess the benefits of their favorite method. I don't want to get into it about what one is better. The one that is better is the one you prefer to use and is easiest for you to use.

Info on a Magic gadget device is on th Grotto RC Pattern site. Ron has some corel drawing files.

http://www.mindspring.com/~rellis2/rcpattrn/rcpattrn.htm

Troy Newman

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