tpita

Hi guys.

I started building RC planes quite a while ago, but I have been very much dealing with it alone without much interacting with fellow builders. I am now interested in aerial photography from airplanes, unmanned beyond-line-of-sight flight (programming is my main occupation) and their combination.

One thing I cannot find a whole lot of information about is the legislature.

I have had quite many questions over the years. I suppose others have as well. So I'm listing most of my critical questions in the hope that it will be beneficial for myself and fellow readers for a long time to come. Even if you know the answers to only some, that would be highly appreciated.

1. Under which legislature do RC planes fall?
2. Which airspace, if any, is off limits to RC enthusiasts? (I have simply taken the safe road thus far)
3. Which are the limits where RC within line of sight planes are allowed to fly in the US, EU and elsewhere (altitude, size and weight of plane, purpose)?
4. What is the legislature for beyond-line-of-sight planes in US? I did research and found there is controversy with FAA over the regulation of UAV's of all types regardless of size.
5. What is the legislature for beyond-line-of-sight planes in the EU? It seems more relaxed, but where exactly does an RC plane end and an UAV start? Different regulation based on altitude, size and weight and purpose?

NikolayTT

Hi tpita,

That "fish" is for sure much bigger than your "boat" ... it will turn it over and will "eat you".
There are easier ways to go to jail and then to prison ... you do not have to do that much
high tech ... I am not joking !
Here are some basic rules, at the end I will post you some www-pages:
1. In the airplanes there is lot more Hardware than Software and when you are in the air
there is no reset button ...
2. If nothing can go wrong, you will see that something goes anyway from bad to worse ...
3. For causing somebody a stress, not yet physical harm, the penalty in EU could be up
to 1 million Euro, depending which lawyer gets after you; you got that cash to play with ?
4. You have to obey the Aviation Law in force Worldwide. Check what is written there and
you will see that you can be in jail even prior your airplane has been ever built, no jokes !
The "Big Brother" is watching you for sure ...
You can get that law by calling the Air-tower in the nearest big Airfield - the people there
will be for sure very friendly to explain some details because they know what the TROUBLE is.
5. The problems you can cause are NOT only on the ground, they are very many in the
air. Yours can hit other plane or other plane can hit yours. Size here matters but you better
have plane with size smaller than a small bird and ligher than any bird. You can be sure
that you will NOT manage to make RC plane flying better and navigating better than any
bird and still sometimes fatal air-trafic accidents happen when an airplane hits a bird ...
6. As soon as your plane goes out of sight you are already posing BIG DANGER to very
many people and they will find you very soon; they got Low Altitude Radars where any thing
in a size of bird can be seen; check that if you have any doubts !
7. There are no Laws for UAV, those laws are in preparation during the last 10-15 years.
People try to formulate such laws but that is not easy, and till such law is established the
International General Aviation Law is in place and that one is no joke at all, that "grounds"
many plans for flying UAV.

You can start with the following www-pages:
http://www.finavia.fi/
http://www.ais.fi/aeronauticalinfo
http://www.ais.fi/ais/aipsup/AipSup_en.htm
in the last above click some of the links, for example:
http://www.ais.fi/ais/aipsup/Sup/S2007/S0422007.pdf
and you will see the Map where UAV can fly in Finland.
In fact you can see it by yourself if on those days in
the AIR suplement above you visit that small hobby
public airfiled
www.jami.fi.

As for the UAV in EU and World Wide there is also very
good WWW-pages to start with:
www.uvs-international.org
www.ucare-network.org
www.uav-info.com

And the last, not the least: - Many EU countries make observation on their borders by
using nowadays UAVs. I believe now you get the feeling what you will be "messing up"
with if you fly UAV yourself out of sight ... better forget about it right now, or Look for
Job in the Military in your Country - there you will have the chances to make your
dreams comming at least nearer. Nowadays UAV industry is main busines of the
big companies and makes "only" about 60 billion $ turnower per year world wide.
And they build UAV from 20cm wing span till ... 15 tons, even ... more than 3000
models & variations and sizes are in production as we type in RCU... The only
problem is that we do not see it frequently on TV...

Cheers,
Nick

tpita

Can anybody answer my initial questions, pretending I'm reasonably smart and I've thought of everything the previous poster outlined?

gittarpikk

Lol..
Well i'm seeing a LOT of rc cams and downlinks available...heck , I just clicked on one ad when I landed on this page...from future something with
1000 mwatt trans and diversity reveivers...sports an AMA emblem on every page and mentions no disclaimers about an quote from a customer in the upper right corner stating he's flown his 2 miles out and no breakup.

I'm wondering just exactly how they propose to enforce any legal mumbo jumbo ..gotta be like the old cb ers...shoot they ran linear amps forever. Only time one got caught was when a neighbor couldnt watch the 5 oclock news or soaps cause of so much "bleedover". "big brother" just dont have time to cruise the streets across the us looking for r/cers running 1 watt transmitters.

No doubt if there is something anyone can do (no matter what it is...if even just eating anchovies), there will be 500 lawyers submitting legislation to bog the courts down to create laws that fines can be levied for....welcome to usa...but 99.9% of the hobbyist out there are responsible thinking people who sure dont want to break their airplane on somebodies head or building.

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

Your location indicates you're in Estonia. Most of the participants in this forum are in the United States. Our laws probably are significantly different from your's. If you need an intelligent, factually accurate answer, you should probably contact a lawyer in your own country.

Good Luck
Brad

moogly

No kidding anything in this country is looked at as being dangerous and irresponsible I think when I take my plane across the street to the park and shoot some video with no one around it is much safer than driving with a cell phone to my head
dont we have better things to worry about??

NikolayTT

My long post above should tell that I have done "some" study; in fact I am a member of UAV International.
The law in Estonia is very similar to the law in Finland but I can understsand the wishfull thinking and also I had
the same feeling - WHY NOT, LETS do it... Also I found READY Controllers for UAV of very sophisticated level,
they cost about 6500 USD and are made and sold in USA and Canada for University Research - see the posted
www-pages I mailed. But all went to "sweet dreams closet" when I have contacted the aviation lawyers and military.
After two(2) years search I understood that there isn't a place one can do that in Europe, and especially in Estonia,
just between the Russians and NATO ???????? - that is really more than bad challenging of big guyis in the aviation
and they the one in National Security and Military ... as said "if you cannot beat then - join them" that is what
I have suggested.

One has to really think more than three times prior build something. UAV have been long ago used
for traficing "goods" over the borders of USA and there are lot of "nice" stories about that... with
lot of people in prison. Also UAV is considered as WEAPON and thus one has to has permission to
build and practice those "toys". No jokes, the penalty is bigger than having illegal fire arm.
And to hope that the "big" brother" will not notice is just to sit on needles - the Big brother is
Big not just because it is named big ... "he" has proven that !

In fact in Russia, in WWII some Aviation constructors who broke the orders from above end up
in Prison to build Airplanes there. It was very good "oportunity" - tallants for free, in fact later the
Russians realised that in Prison one can stay very well focused on the job and also it is very easy
to keep his work confidential than to let the guys go home everyday ... - So, maybe someone
is going to "hire" this way more RC-constructors somewhere ... ?

Also, the Big Aviation relized that Computers are better that humans and Lot Cheaper and Repeatable;
there isn't any thing more expensive in Aviation than training pilots. Then for the Advances in UAV
one can see those "weak" signals that F-35 was the last(?!?!) Human piloted Jet build in USA. In fact
on almost every Eurobus and Boeing nowadays the Polots are just sitting in the cockpit and do NOT
tuch anything for more than 8-10 min in total for the whole flight from Gate-to-Gate from Europe
to USA. The future is there and recently EU paid 4bln USD to Nortrop to build UAV of all kinds,
that was anounced on Euronews and CNBC year ago ...

I will try to upload a photo from www.jami.fi from the last summer on UAV, that is prety old one
and still very much in use and goes far beyond one can see, in fact the region that one is
travelling is on that link .PDF in my previous post.

ucando3dee

Thank you NikolayTT for a reasoned and informed approach to questions about unsanctioned UAV flight. It can be full of dangerous consequences. R/C flight is wonderfully fullfilling without having a model fly out of sight and perhaps out of immediate control of the operator/pilot. Overcoming the difficulties of UAV flight is in itself not a justifiable reward to non-military/commercial pilots. Those of you who must fly this way please consider joining the military/security forces. Please do not put our hobby in jeopardy of onerous regulation here in the USA with the possibility of a notable accident which will certainly begin a non-friendly action by our legislatures.

Brad

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

You sound like the paranoid people that have been trying to tell us not to fly by video for years. The first arguement was that we would bring on legislation if we published what we flew... Well the LA sheriffs department brought far more attention to small RC airplanes with cameras than we could ever have. Your attitude of " you are going to ruin it for all of us " is just plain stupid. There are many big corporations and government agencies that wany to fly by RC and video. Rules are comming, weather we fly or not.

I can see you about 40 years ago, saying " Free flight is a great hobby " " dont try to control your plane with a radio, or the government may not like it, it is too much like a guided missle. " There are always paranoid people afraid of anything new, that want to hold back the human race, and never advance anything, how does it feel to be one of them Brad ???

Like Moogly very wisely said, people get killed and hurt others driving to the soccor game in their car than have ever been hurt by RC Video flights. Would you suggest that soccor be outlawed also ???

And for your last suggestion of joining the military to fly UAV's, do you know what the age restrictions are to join the military ? Did you know what the chances of getting into a UAV program are, very close to ZERO. Did you even think before making this very bad suggestion

JettPilot

tpita

Commercial application is not my objective right now, but I wanted to make a comment in response to this. The future is commercial UAV flight and that's where the bulk of the applications will be. Mapping, environmental and weather monitoring, surveying, communications, security, firefighting. The military will become just a niche.

NikolayTT

In reply to those who want to go ahead without thinking too
much:

- Well, it is your choice and at RCU we are not going
to be neither your Policeman neither your Doctor nor your
Lawyer. And as in footbal kicking somebody is prohibited,
here also are similar Yellow and Red cards you might face.
At least in Europe Very for Sure ! And also I do not have the
impression that in USA is total "freedom" to do what one wants
regardless to the consequences...

As for joining Military, the age is not the problem, the knowledge is,
and there are civil cervants in Military of any active age, but
the knowledge especially in Novelties like UAV is a VERY
serious pre-requisite. The other pre-requisite is a Clean History
of obeing the rules in the regular life... Do not dash out your
chances by going against the rules; they have some(!) good
reasons to exist as well, especially when Humman Live and Health
are on the line of "fire" ... killing someone by RC plane is not
that difficult as one might think and not that low probability as
it might seems to be.

Recently some one said and I am about quite to agree that doing
UAV without rules is like Aero-Hooliganism and can be understood
as Mindless Active Terorism Act and it is to be punished as such.

Do you want to see yourself under the Terrorist Act in USA or EU ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as I wrote, out of military, there are University Research Groups
where the UAV are developed and that costs you nothing,
in fact You Get Paid for it. Check the WWW-pages I mailed
and look around the place you live, they might be just
nearby.

Doing real UAV is a Real Challenge - better do not think
that is a just another RC hobby chapter; as known, there
are currently 60 Bln(!) Dollars on it and Talented People
are wanted there and paid Well (!) there. I doubt if all the
RCU related business comes at all near that number ...

Is there anything better than you do your RC hobby and you get
paid for it for doing things which nobody has ever done in RC ???
And no shopping with own money, in fact in UAV there are things
now which might come to the RCU in 10-20 years time; you cannot(!)
buy those things now from anywhere but they can be given for free
to you if you prove you are smart enough ! And check that 5000 USD
Controller for RC UAV - anyone wants to tell he has done anything
better ? - please, all will be delighted.

Try if you think you can contribute something there,
talking on RCU is too easy ... and please do not
terrorise the others with suggestions and actions
to go ahead just like that.

Cheers,
Nick

tpita

Now you're contradicting yourself. According to your definition, the same university research groups are engaging in "Mindless Active Terorism" as well.

NikolayTT

You seems "interested" to think that those University groups are just doing
what ever crosses their minds OUT of Any Rules and ... also get paid for it ???

Here is how it works:
http://www.ais.fi/ais/aipsup/Sup/S2007/S0422007.pdf

I am sending you again(!) this WWW-page and you better check how
"unatended" those things are ... and also on behalf of WHO such
anouncements comes... They are just in uniforms, time to time ...
and not whole the time ...

Anyway, I think you would see if you want, of you don't, nobody can
help you.

Nick

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

This is one of the most stupid things I have ever read. So Nikolay you say if anyone flys an RC plane against the rules, they should be considered a terrorist ? What about the guy that drives a car over the speed limit " Land-Hooliganisim " Cars have the potential to kill more people, and do kill more people every year than anything else. So anyone driving a car without a license should prosecuted under the Terrorist act ?

I suspected there was something wrong with your prevoius posts. Now you show yourself for exactly what you are. No, flying by video is NOT terrorisim, not anymore than talking on your cellphone while driving your car. You are just one of those guys that is afraid of anything new. Trying to pass off flying RC planes as terrorisim is nothing short of rediculous and shows you are just very anxious to lie, be dishonest, and go to any means you can figure scare people away from enjoying a hobby you do no like. I hope no one pays attention to all the FALSE things you have posted here.

JettPilot

tpita

I'm just asking, because you swing one way and then the opposite.

In specific:
1. Why is having "Any Rules" important as opposed to having common sense? If anything, you wouldn't want just rules - you'd want well justified rules or somebody who's able to think.
2. If you're saying that the people in universities are fairly smart and that's why they're an exception, why would you think that it would not apply to people in the RCU community? I had the impression that here were (and still are) some mighty smart people. That's why I joined to ask the question from here and not anywhere else.

NikolayTT

No JettPilot,

I am not as "smart" as you think to go against the rules, and as I wrote, you can completely ignore
what I wrote. That is obviously a non-sense for you. Fine, go ahead and drive 2 x Speed limit ...
and talk on two phones at the time, why not, then somebody up there will tell you in better way
than me what that is ... You are looking for RC-troubles, then some day they will come with or
without your posts on RCU.

Good luck,
Nick

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

Dont try to change the subject by saying go speeding etc. this is not about that, this is about you spreading false information and trying to scare, and intimidate people into doing what you want.

Flying RC planes by video has NOTHING to do with terrorisim. You even implied that doing so and breaking any rule would make you a terrorist, which is just a LIE and is FALSE INFORMATION designed to scare people. I have no use for someone that has such a personal agenda, that they have to call a regular person a terrorist to keep them from doing something you dont like.

JettPilot

ucando3dee

Mr. Jetplot

You do seem to have a problem with common sense. You see with blinders. There are certain things in civilized society that you may not do. An obvious one is endangering human life. In your world it seems "Jetplot" may do whatever he wants..... That could be labeled, "stupidity" - it certainly can be called "irresponsibility". I see no problem whatsoever so long as your aircraft (carrying whatever payload) is within range of your normal eyesight and your transmitted control signal. There you may be able to take action to avoid serious consequences. In the case of system failure you can only depend on "divine mercy". My disagreement is when you chance flying out of your normal range of vision and radio range and subject whatever is "out there" to a "potential weapon". Do you agree that it might be possible for a system failure to cause your aircraft to crash into a school yard full of children at "recess"? Do you think it could happen that a system failure on a GPS guided craft - and out of sight - could possibly fly into the airspace of a legally regulated aircraft? If you do not, what planet do you come from? Why do you risk endangering the presently legal freedom your fellow R/C'ers have to sensibly exercise their hobby? Do you really believe what you write or are you just pulling our chains to have something to say?

Your fellow RC'er ....

Brad

wjglynn

Gentlemen,

The power of the internet sometimes skews our perspectives. If you will notice, Jettpilot lives in an area of the world where there is more risk of hitting a big rock in the desert than inflicting real damage to property or limb. Others of you live in populated areas where the risk footprint is entirely different. Here in Kansas I am sort of in between. I can go to an sparsely populated area if I wanted to conduct the same kind of hobby/research that JettPilot does. I choose not to. Where I do fly, I do aerial photography but not out of sight. The point here is that what would be a high risk flight in one part of the world may be practically no risk elsewhere. Let's take the world politics and local laws out of the equation in this forum and let common sense prevail. I do not always agree with some of JettPilot's perspectives but who said I (or we) had to. He is a talented RC enthusiast who has been willing to share his experience with us. (He has to put up with us too.) I think we should all be aware of the world diversity brought to this single discussion thread and try not to get sucked into proclaiming universal truths when they just don't apply everywhere. Let's share with each other technical expertise and take with a grain of salt any local laws or political views interjected from any given area of the world.

Just a hayseed opinion from Kansas,

Bill

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

Brad,

You talk about technical fialures that can lead to a loss of control of an RC plane, that is always possible. But at my experience level, and with the quality of equipment I use it is not as likely to crash as the guy with a new ARF trainer or sport plane. A radio failure of a trainer will easily result in a fly off until it runs out of gas, A raidio fialure in my will result in the backup system bringing it back to me. The biggest difference in danger to others is what you are flying close to. With a typical weekend flyer with not much skill or knowlege of radio systems, he is flying at an RC field full of people, and taking off and landing within 100 feet of a bunch of the flightline and pits, and ALWAYS flying within several hundered feet of the spectator area with many more people. I have seen pilots so bad that I am afraid to be on the flight line when they are flying. If something were to go wrong, chances are MUCH HIGHER that the weekend flyer would hit someone than with my plane, which is mostly over open fields and NEVER near a buch of people standing in the open. So talk about common sense and reasoning,

Weekend flyers = Lots of crashes in the vicinity of a crowd of people.
My Video Flying = Almost never a crash, and always far away from people.

Where would you rather be standing, next to me flying FPV, or at the club with the weekend flyers barely in control of their models ??? So simple a 5th grader could figure this one out....

As I said before, its a matter of something new scaring you and you getting emotional about something new that you do not understnad. RC planes go out of control all the time, they always have and always will, the difference is where the plane is when it crashes. Mine are over open areas, NOT crowded RC fields that are near town in many cases. Your average weekned flyers pose a much greater risk of hitting something than I ever do.

JettPilot

NikolayTT

Hi Guys,

It is not all Politics and Common sense in fact.

How about something already mentioned but intentionally(?) forgotten:
- The Low altitude flying airplanes with human on board. How they would
know of comming even a Super-Toy-RC ? A collision at the speed and
weight is usually fatal !! Birds have their own observation and senses
while the RC-super-toy out of sight is a Flying Dummy.

And if someone is a "super RC pilot", then there isn't for him anything like
flying out of sight, because it seems he can also see beyond the horizon too
and in all 360 degrees and all the time [sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

Woow, I am getting (badly) impressed !

Then we should tell the Aviation Law-makers that they are complete dummies to require
a Transponder on the airplanes, that is a just "stupid and outdated thing" and consult the
Super-RC-makers and Super-Pilots on RCU how to change the aviation rules, isn't it ?

Althogh nothing new, I am again and again surprised how limited is the knowledege of
people who think they know and can do everything, no problems for them, only
for the RC-beginners...

I thinks that we did what we could to help the safety. It is even usual that
some one reads poster "Wet Paint" and then tries with his finger... nothing new.

There was a TV series about that: - People placed wet CA Glue and wrote "Wet Glue"
and then filmed how many got glied with the CA glue on the wall ... That was fun
and good lesson too.

I guess we are done with this discussion; it seems to me there is no further sense
to try convince intentionally blind people how dangerous is to fly out of sight.

Nick

wjglynn

Sometimes it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt. Perhaps the forum's silence should be considered deafening.

After all, you are the world"s foremost expert on your own opinion, and I mine. That is what all of this amounts to.

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

Birds are NOT able to deal with full scale airplanes traveling at 120 mph plus. I have hit LOTS of birds in all the years I have been flying. There are MILLIONS of birds in the skys every day, and they do NOT respect airspace, or busy airports, and many times they fly in large flocks of birds 15 pounds each. So if a couple FPV planes in remote areas are to dangerous to you NICK, then you better NEVER get in an airplane, because there is a far greater threat from birds, and they are flying over large airports where commercial jets operate. Only someone that is ignorant would worry about an FPV plane when there are millions of birds flying.

As far as transponders, they are NOT required on all airplanes. Learn your facts NICK. In remote areas where most of us fly FPV, people can fly full scale planes with no transponders and without talking to anyone. And we are NOT flying video planes in traffic areas where transponders are required. So whats you point of bringing up this NON issue Nick ? Are you just trying to mislead people in order to make your point ?

And your talking about " See and Avoid ". Then y you better to over to the free flight forum and tell those guys to stop flying free flight, because they have even less of a chance of avoiding a full scale plane than a video plane does. While you are at it, go tell the glider pilots not to fly either, because at the speed they fly, they would not have much of a chance of avoiding a full scale plane either.

What ??? You havent told the free flight guys not to fly ? Why not, free flight is just not new and scarey to you ? If we were to use your standards of " Avoiding Full Scale Planes ", several areas of RC would be shut down. The fact that you are only talking aboout video flying area shows that you are jsut a fear monger that just wants to ban something that you dont like while ignornig the same risks in other areas of RC. I have no use for ignorant people that are emotional rather than using facts and logic to determine risks.

JettPilot

lvspark

Tampere, FINLAND Must be a very small place.....

anci3nt

I know I'm (very) late to this discussion (raising a dead horse in fact), but just wanted to put in my 2 cents and agree with JettPilot. Common sense and a realistic view on risk is what prevails. Laws are created to keep a level of order, and they are (mostly) created in the soup of common sense. Laws are ALSO meant to be questioned and challenged in appropriate ways. Without that component, we'd all be stuck in caveman law of the jungle.

So after all that nonsense, here's my point.. I think FAA and FCC regulations are being challenged with new situations at a pace they can't keep up with. FPV and UAVs are such mentioned situations. I celebrate the day when the regulations have caught up with the times, and are fair to all users. Until that day it looks like enthusiasts and 'radicals' in FPV, UAV, and whatever the next evolutionary step is, will be operating quietly.. and hopefully as safely as they can! Note, that doesn't mean not at all.

Now to tpita's questions... I too have been looking for all the regs I can. Here's what I've found in my limited searching:

1. Under which legislature do RC planes fall?

I don't know what you mean by legislature. Model aircraft are discussed in the FAA Advisory Circular (AC) 91-57. In aforementioned document, they 'recommend' staying under 400' and there's mention of flying within 3 miles of an airport. Sorry I can't find a link of it but have the PDF on my desktop. Message me if you can't find it on the net and I'll send it to you.

2. Which airspace, if any, is off limits to RC enthusiasts? (I have simply taken the safe road thus far)

See previously mentioned FAA guidlines. These aren't laws mind you, but I would like to think if I followed what the FAA recommended and wasn't doing something absolutely stupid, I might have a case in a court of law if an accident happened.

3. Which are the limits where RC within line of sight planes are allowed to fly in the US, EU and elsewhere (altitude, size and weight of plane, purpose)?

If the vehicle (UAV or otherwise) is within LOS and is considered a 'model', it is recommended to follow AC 91-57.

4. What is the legislature for beyond-line-of-sight planes in US? I did research and found there is controversy with FAA over the regulation of UAV's of all types regardless of size.

This link is a reference to an FAA docket that discusses UAV's (or tries to anyway):
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/E7-2402.html

5. What is the legislature for beyond-line-of-sight planes in the EU? It seems more relaxed, but where exactly does an RC plane end and an UAV start? Different regulation based on altitude, size and weight and purpose?

I don't know anything about this question.

I hope some of that helped. If not, maybe it will help the next guy looking for the same stuff you and I were looking for.

- B