Laws of RC and UAV planes?

Laws of RC and UAV planes?
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Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/8/2007 7:11:38 PM

tpita

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: tallinnest, ESTONIA
Status: offline

Hi guys.

I started building RC planes quite a while ago, but I have been very much dealing with it alone without much interacting with fellow builders. I am now interested in aerial photography from airplanes, unmanned beyond-line-of-sight flight (programming is my main occupation) and their combination.

One thing I cannot find a whole lot of information about is the legislature.

I have had quite many questions over the years. I suppose others have as well. So I'm listing most of my critical questions in the hope that it will be beneficial for myself and fellow readers for a long time to come. Even if you know the answers to only some, that would be highly appreciated.

1. Under which legislature do RC planes fall?
2. Which airspace, if any, is off limits to RC enthusiasts? (I have simply taken the safe road thus far)
3. Which are the limits where RC within line of sight planes are allowed to fly in the US, EU and elsewhere (altitude, size and weight of plane, purpose)?
4. What is the legislature for beyond-line-of-sight planes in US? I did research and found there is controversy with FAA over the regulation of UAV's of all types regardless of size.
5. What is the legislature for beyond-line-of-sight planes in the EU? It seems more relaxed, but where exactly does an RC plane end and an UAV start? Different regulation based on altitude, size and weight and purpose?

< Message edited by tpita -- 9/8/2007 7:12:39 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/8/2007 9:43:45 PM

NikolayTT

Posts: 572
Joined: 9/29/2002
From: Tampere, FINLAND
Status: offline

Hi tpita,

That "fish" is for sure much bigger than your "boat" ... it will turn it over and will "eat you".
There are easier ways to go to jail and then to prison ... you do not have to do that much
high tech ... I am not joking !
Here are some basic rules, at the end I will post you some www-pages:
1. In the airplanes there is lot more Hardware than Software and when you are in the air
there is no reset button ...
2. If nothing can go wrong, you will see that something goes anyway from bad to worse ...
3. For causing somebody a stress, not yet physical harm, the penalty in EU could be up
to 1 million Euro, depending which lawyer gets after you; you got that cash to play with ?
4. You have to obey the Aviation Law in force Worldwide. Check what is written there and
you will see that you can be in jail even prior your airplane has been ever built, no jokes !
The "Big Brother" is watching you for sure ...
You can get that law by calling the Air-tower in the nearest big Airfield - the people there
will be for sure very friendly to explain some details because they know what the TROUBLE is.
5. The problems you can cause are NOT only on the ground, they are very many in the
air. Yours can hit other plane or other plane can hit yours. Size here matters but you better
have plane with size smaller than a small bird and ligher than any bird. You can be sure
that you will NOT manage to make RC plane flying better and navigating better than any
bird and still sometimes fatal air-trafic accidents happen when an airplane hits a bird ...
6. As soon as your plane goes out of sight you are already posing BIG DANGER to very
many people and they will find you very soon; they got Low Altitude Radars where any thing
in a size of bird can be seen; check that if you have any doubts !
7. There are no Laws for UAV, those laws are in preparation during the last 10-15 years.
People try to formulate such laws but that is not easy, and till such law is established the
International General Aviation Law is in place and that one is no joke at all, that "grounds"
many plans for flying UAV.

You can start with the following www-pages:
http://www.finavia.fi/
http://www.ais.fi/aeronauticalinfo
http://www.ais.fi/ais/aipsup/AipSup_en.htm
in the last above click some of the links, for example:
http://www.ais.fi/ais/aipsup/Sup/S2007/S0422007.pdf
and you will see the Map where UAV can fly in Finland.
In fact you can see it by yourself if on those days in
the AIR suplement above you visit that small hobby
public airfiled
www.jami.fi.

As for the UAV in EU and World Wide there is also very
good WWW-pages to start with:
www.uvs-international.org
www.ucare-network.org
www.uav-info.com

And the last, not the least: - Many EU countries make observation on their borders by
using nowadays UAVs. I believe now you get the feeling what you will be "messing up"
with if you fly UAV yourself out of sight ... better forget about it right now, or Look for
Job in the Military in your Country - there you will have the chances to make your
dreams comming at least nearer. Nowadays UAV industry is main busines of the
big companies and makes "only" about 60 billion $ turnower per year world wide.
And they build UAV from 20cm wing span till ... 15 tons, even ... more than 3000
models & variations and sizes are in production as we type in RCU... The only
problem is that we do not see it frequently on TV...

Cheers,
Nick

< Message edited by NikolayTT -- 9/8/2007 9:45:23 PM >

(in reply to tpita)

Post #: 2

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/9/2007 10:01:38 AM

tpita

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: tallinnest, ESTONIA
Status: offline

Can anybody answer my initial questions, pretending I'm reasonably smart and I've thought of everything the previous poster outlined?

(in reply to tpita)

Post #: 3

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/10/2007 2:07:37 AM

gittarpikk

Posts: 78
Joined: 7/29/2003
From: Maryville, TN, USA
Status: offline

Lol..
Well i'm seeing a LOT of rc cams and downlinks available...heck , I just clicked on one ad when I landed on this page...from future something with
1000 mwatt trans and diversity reveivers...sports an AMA emblem on every page and mentions no disclaimers about an quote from a customer in the upper right corner stating he's flown his 2 miles out and no breakup.

I'm wondering just exactly how they propose to enforce any legal mumbo jumbo ..gotta be like the old cb ers...shoot they ran linear amps forever. Only time one got caught was when a neighbor couldnt watch the 5 oclock news or soaps cause of so much "bleedover". "big brother" just dont have time to cruise the streets across the us looking for r/cers running 1 watt transmitters.

No doubt if there is something anyone can do (no matter what it is...if even just eating anchovies), there will be 500 lawyers submitting legislation to bog the courts down to create laws that fines can be levied for....welcome to usa...but 99.9% of the hobbyist out there are responsible thinking people who sure dont want to break their airplane on somebodies head or building.

_____________________________

AMA77225 (yep one of the OLD ones)
Who cares what his name is?! but ask him what kind of radio wags the tail like that!

(in reply to tpita)

Post #: 4

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/10/2007 3:51:58 AM

bkdavy

Posts: 1383
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: FrederickMD, USA
Status: offline

Your location indicates you're in Estonia. Most of the participants in this forum are in the United States. Our laws probably are significantly different from your's. If you need an intelligent, factually accurate answer, you should probably contact a lawyer in your own country.

Good Luck
Brad

(in reply to tpita)

Post #: 5

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/10/2007 4:32:51 AM

moogly

Posts: 132
Joined: 9/15/2006
From: minnetonka, MN, USA
Status: offline

No kidding anything in this country is looked at as being dangerous and irresponsible I think when I take my plane across the street to the park and shoot some video with no one around it is much safer than driving with a cell phone to my head
dont we have better things to worry about??

(in reply to gittarpikk)

Post #: 6

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/10/2007 5:27:03 AM

NikolayTT

Posts: 572
Joined: 9/29/2002
From: Tampere, FINLAND
Status: offline

My long post above should tell that I have done "some" study; in fact I am a member of UAV International.
The law in Estonia is very similar to the law in Finland but I can understsand the wishfull thinking and also I had
the same feeling - WHY NOT, LETS do it... Also I found READY Controllers for UAV of very sophisticated level,
they cost about 6500 USD and are made and sold in USA and Canada for University Research - see the posted
www-pages I mailed. But all went to "sweet dreams closet" when I have contacted the aviation lawyers and military.
After two(2) years search I understood that there isn't a place one can do that in Europe, and especially in Estonia,
just between the Russians and NATO ???????? - that is really more than bad challenging of big guyis in the aviation
and they the one in National Security and Military ... as said "if you cannot beat then - join them" that is what
I have suggested.

One has to really think more than three times prior build something. UAV have been long ago used
for traficing "goods" over the borders of USA and there are lot of "nice" stories about that... with
lot of people in prison. Also UAV is considered as WEAPON and thus one has to has permission to
build and practice those "toys". No jokes, the penalty is bigger than having illegal fire arm.
And to hope that the "big" brother" will not notice is just to sit on needles - the Big brother is
Big not just because it is named big ... "he" has proven that !

In fact in Russia, in WWII some Aviation constructors who broke the orders from above end up
in Prison to build Airplanes there. It was very good "oportunity" - tallants for free, in fact later the
Russians realised that in Prison one can stay very well focused on the job and also it is very easy
to keep his work confidential than to let the guys go home everyday ... - So, maybe someone
is going to "hire" this way more RC-constructors somewhere ... ?

Also, the Big Aviation relized that Computers are better that humans and Lot Cheaper and Repeatable;
there isn't any thing more expensive in Aviation than training pilots. Then for the Advances in UAV
one can see those "weak" signals that F-35 was the last(?!?!) Human piloted Jet build in USA. In fact
on almost every Eurobus and Boeing nowadays the Polots are just sitting in the cockpit and do NOT
tuch anything for more than 8-10 min in total for the whole flight from Gate-to-Gate from Europe
to USA. The future is there and recently EU paid 4bln USD to Nortrop to build UAV of all kinds,
that was anounced on Euronews and CNBC year ago ...

I will try to upload a photo from www.jami.fi from the last summer on UAV, that is prety old one
and still very much in use and goes far beyond one can see, in fact the region that one is
travelling is on that link .PDF in my previous post.

Attachments

Click to see fullsize image.

Click for fullsize

< Message edited by NikolayTT -- 9/10/2007 5:38:19 AM >

(in reply to moogly)

Post #: 7

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/11/2007 1:39:26 AM

ucando3dee

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Beaver, PA, USA
Status: offline

Thank you NikolayTT for a reasoned and informed approach to questions about unsanctioned UAV flight. It can be full of dangerous consequences. R/C flight is wonderfully fullfilling without having a model fly out of sight and perhaps out of immediate control of the operator/pilot. Overcoming the difficulties of UAV flight is in itself not a justifiable reward to non-military/commercial pilots. Those of you who must fly this way please consider joining the military/security forces. Please do not put our hobby in jeopardy of onerous regulation here in the USA with the possibility of a notable accident which will certainly begin a non-friendly action by our legislatures.

Brad

(in reply to NikolayTT)

Post #: 8

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/11/2007 4:56:42 AM

JettPilot

Posts: 1149
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Paradise, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ucando3dee

Thank you NikolayTT for a reasoned and informed approach to questions about unsanctioned UAV flight. It can be full of dangerous consequences. R/C flight is wonderfully fullfilling without having a model fly out of sight and perhaps out of immediate control of the operator/pilot. Overcoming the difficulties of UAV flight is in itself not a justifiable reward to non-military/commercial pilots. Those of you who must fly this way please consider joining the military/security forces. Please do not put our hobby in jeopardy of onerous regulation here in the USA with the possibility of a notable accident which will certainly begin a non-friendly action by our legislatures.

Brad

You sound like the paranoid people that have been trying to tell us not to fly by video for years. The first arguement was that we would bring on legislation if we published what we flew... Well the LA sheriffs department brought far more attention to small RC airplanes with cameras than we could ever have. Your attitude of " you are going to ruin it for all of us " is just plain stupid. There are many big corporations and government agencies that wany to fly by RC and video. Rules are comming, weather we fly or not.

I can see you about 40 years ago, saying " Free flight is a great hobby " " dont try to control your plane with a radio, or the government may not like it, it is too much like a guided missle. " There are always paranoid people afraid of anything new, that want to hold back the human race, and never advance anything, how does it feel to be one of them Brad ???

Like Moogly very wisely said, people get killed and hurt others driving to the soccor game in their car than have ever been hurt by RC Video flights. Would you suggest that soccor be outlawed also ???

And for your last suggestion of joining the military to fly UAV's, do you know what the age restrictions are to join the military ? Did you know what the chances of getting into a UAV program are, very close to ZERO. Did you even think before making this very bad suggestion

JettPilot

< Message edited by JettPilot -- 9/11/2007 4:59:42 AM >

_____________________________

THE TRUTH ABOVE ALL ELSE...

(in reply to ucando3dee)

Post #: 9

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/11/2007 6:58:43 AM

tpita

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: tallinnest, ESTONIA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ucando3dee

Overcoming the difficulties of UAV flight is in itself not a justifiable reward to non-military/commercial pilots. Those of you who must fly this way please consider joining the military/security forces.

Commercial application is not my objective right now, but I wanted to make a comment in response to this. The future is commercial UAV flight and that's where the bulk of the applications will be. Mapping, environmental and weather monitoring, surveying, communications, security, firefighting. The military will become just a niche.

(in reply to ucando3dee)

Post #: 10

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/11/2007 4:42:02 PM

NikolayTT

Posts: 572
Joined: 9/29/2002
From: Tampere, FINLAND
Status: offline

In reply to those who want to go ahead without thinking too
much:

- Well, it is your choice and at RCU we are not going
to be neither your Policeman neither your Doctor nor your
Lawyer. And as in footbal kicking somebody is prohibited,
here also are similar Yellow and Red cards you might face.
At least in Europe Very for Sure ! And also I do not have the
impression that in USA is total "freedom" to do what one wants
regardless to the consequences...

As for joining Military, the age is not the problem, the knowledge is,
and there are civil cervants in Military of any active age, but
the knowledge especially in Novelties like UAV is a VERY
serious pre-requisite. The other pre-requisite is a Clean History
of obeing the rules in the regular life... Do not dash out your
chances by going against the rules; they have some(!) good
reasons to exist as well, especially when Humman Live and Health
are on the line of "fire" ... killing someone by RC plane is not
that difficult as one might think and not that low probability as
it might seems to be.

Recently some one said and I am about quite to agree that doing
UAV without rules is like Aero-Hooliganism and can be understood
as Mindless Active Terorism Act and it is to be punished as such.

Do you want to see yourself under the Terrorist Act in USA or EU ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as I wrote, out of military, there are University Research Groups
where the UAV are developed and that costs you nothing,
in fact You Get Paid for it. Check the WWW-pages I mailed
and look around the place you live, they might be just
nearby.

Doing real UAV is a Real Challenge - better do not think
that is a just another RC hobby chapter; as known, there
are currently 60 Bln(!) Dollars on it and Talented People
are wanted there and paid Well (!) there. I doubt if all the
RCU related business comes at all near that number ...

Is there anything better than you do your RC hobby and you get
paid for it for doing things which nobody has ever done in RC ???
And no shopping with own money, in fact in UAV there are things
now which might come to the RCU in 10-20 years time; you cannot(!)
buy those things now from anywhere but they can be given for free
to you if you prove you are smart enough ! And check that 5000 USD
Controller for RC UAV - anyone wants to tell he has done anything
better ? - please, all will be delighted.

Try if you think you can contribute something there,
talking on RCU is too easy ... and please do not
terrorise the others with suggestions and actions
to go ahead just like that.

Cheers,
Nick

< Message edited by NikolayTT -- 9/11/2007 4:56:22 PM >

(in reply to JettPilot)

Post #: 11

RE: Laws of RC and UAV planes? - 9/11/2007 5:06:32 PM

tpita

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: tallinnest, ESTONIA
Status: offline

quote:

doing
UAV without rules is like Aero-Hooliganism and can be understood
as Mindless Active Terorism Act and it is to be punished as such.

Do you want to see yourself under the Terrorist Act in USA or EU ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as I wrote, out of military, there are University Research Groups
where the UAV are developed

Now you're contradicting yourself. According to your definition, the same university research groups are engaging in "Mindless Active Terorism" as well.

(in reply to NikolayTT)