ENR_Kyle

A few friends and I spend the day at the track today with our nitro powered vehicles and we got our *****es handed to us by the brushless/lipo boys.. Seeins as we spend alot of time and money gettin our truck to run right, THEN we get beat makes me want to go brushless.. So I need a little help with a setup.. What is good in a brushless setup.. I was in the electric world many years ago, I know about the turns and stuff, but how are brushless motors raited?.. how about speed controlers for them.. and using lipo?.. I would like to go with a stadium truck with a brushless/lipo setup and NEEDS a wheelie bar.. I have seen video of these things flipping over at like 40mph cuz the peged it.. I want that!.. it does not need to be race legal at all, just bashing with extreme speed and tq, I do not need top of the line racing gear, If possable I would like to spend less than $150 on the battery, ESC, motor, and charger.. from my understanding I can use any electric powered rooling chassis?.. is that true?..

I see alot of "3s 20c", what does that mean??

I like ebay and would like to order a setup soon, thanks for the help!

depro

the forums are full of this stuff already
just do a little research and you'll find out loads of information
and don't buy some generic brushless motor setup off ebay
chances are it won't perform up to spec

ENR_Kyle

yea.. I tried searching but I cant find any good threads that pertain to cars (most seem to be about heli's and trains) and if I do find one its about a 1/18th scale setup, I am sure there are diffrent for 1/10th.. Is there a sticky that explaines brushless motors and what to look for, how about one for lipo's?...

Thanks

AeroCat

My Feedback: (2)

Ok, I'm a car noob but I'll try to help. I know all about Lipos and brushless from planes.

3s 20C Lipos = 3 lipo cells in series, with a discharge rating of 20C. This rating tells you the current the battery can supply continuously. But this continuous rating is sometimes over-rated on cheaper packs.

So, let's say we have a 3s 20C 5000mah Lipo. The 20C means the battery can supply 20*5.0Ah=100Amps. 5000mah/1000=5mah

Anything over 20C for extended periods of time will severely raise the Lipo's temp and cause damage.

As far as motor systems, I'm new to cars but from what I've read the Castle Creations Mamba Max motor/esc combos are popular. The new Traxxas VXL brushless combos are a bit cheaper but less tuneable. Novak is an option but I know nothing about their motors. I think their motors are mostly sensored, meaning the ESC is a sensored ESC and detects the motor pole orientation differently than a sensorless ESC which are used in planes. The VXL and Mamba Max ESC's are sensorless. Sensored motors provide smoother low end throttle response which is helpful in cars, but they are less powerful than sensorless motors. (I think)

Research these power systems and you'll see $150 won't cut it for motor, ESC, and battery. A 3s Lipo will run about $150 itself. And for decent runtimes a 3s 5000mah minimum is recommended. Most bashers use 3s 8000mah for long runtimes and power. Lipo's are much lighter than NIMH so 8000mah isn't such a big weight penalty. Don't go the ebay route for Lipo's especially.

Mekong

Rustler I think would be the best option, theres TONS of after market parts to make it a great speed basher, and for a wheelie bar, check out www.swami-rc.com,

get a rustler used off ebay, you might even find a cheap rolling chassis.

then slap a MM5700 on it, and get a good charger, take the radio out of your nitro and use it on the rustler.

If you wana save money I would recomend http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp...OD&ProdID=1711

Much cheaper than Lipo, and will save you some $ to save up for some quality lipo packs

Its gonna be way over 150$....

ENR_Kyle

first of all, thanks everyone for the help.. I really do apreciate it!

ok..well I guess im going to do it right.. why waste money if im not going to do it right.... I will spend what it takes to do it right.. but I dont want the most expensive racing stuff.. so if Castle Creations is decent stuff, there how does think look?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Castle-Creations...QQcmdZViewItem

EDIT-----I see now that this is for 1/18 scale, I cant seem to find anything for 1/10, are the the same?
Things I like about this is:
Price
Brand name
it has reverse
LiPo safe
built in failsafe

Things I dont know about:
SPECS: ESC resistence .0022 ohms
Continuous current: 25A
Surge current: 50A
kV Rating: 6800kV (6800 RPM per volt)

(a 25 conbtinus/ 50 peak it good right, since I wont dont want to run over 20 anyway?)
what is a KV Rating?

is a CM 20 motor any good?.. I dont see any more specs for it..


I am still unsure about what to look for in a brushless motor, I see 3500rpm/v 310w.. (is 3500rpm for planes or cars?.. or does it matter), and numbers telling the the thrust (is that for planes only>?)





how about batteries?.. is there a good brand?.. I assume I want 3S 20C... and atleast 5000mah minimum .. I also need a charger..





I do think I will go with a rustler for a base truck, just a normal electric rustler rolller will work, i have a few friends with roller laying arround

thanks

Slo-V Flyer

Yup Aerocat pretty much summed it up. A 2s lipo is 2 cells in series which would be 7.4v, 3s is 11.1v.
If you want the best runtimes, you want 5000-8000 mah battery. Generally the 2s will give better runtimes, in an identical setup compared to a 3s (the higher voltage causes more amp draw, unless you regear the motor with a smaller pinion to compensate).

As for 8000 mah, you won't really need to it get decent runtimes, even the 5000-6000 mah will do. Also the 3s 8000 will weigh more than 19 oz, so if you're after cooler running motors you want the lighter 5-6000 mah battery, which will cost much less too. I have a Rustler with the Mamba 5700 motor combo, and the 3s 5000 mah lipo battery. I can easily get 20 minutes of runtime per charge depending on how and where I run (pavement and pulling wheelies will reduce runtime). The minute you notice the lipo battery heating up to 120-130'F you want to stop right away. I've noticed my 5000 mah battery heats up that much when it's about depleted (at around 11-11.3 volts).

Here are the approximate costs for the bare minimum setup:

Mamba Max ESC + 5700 motor: $178 (b-p-p.com)
3s 5000 mah 20C lipo (100 amp constant discharge) ~$140
Lipo/Nimh compatible AC/DC charger ~$90

You want to upgrade the Rustler's stock plastic idler gear to the metal one, because it's the first to go in pieces.

Be warned the Mamba Max system seems to cause more radio glitches than the Novak system at closer distances, depending on your setup (distance of rx from ESC and wires, etc.). Also, Mamba Max combos will heat up the motor much more than the Novak system would. Typical motor temps are around ~160+'F, you want to stay at or below that to make sure it's not overheating. (200'F and you'll cook your wires and rotor magnet permanently).

There is a little bit of stutter when you get the motor going from a stop, but besides that the control is pretty much smooth.

The Novak GTB + Velociti motor system will cost upwards of $250. The fastest I'd recommend for a Rustler is probably the 5.5. Novak systems tend to run cooler. The hottest I've gotten my Novak 3.5 motor (the fastest 7.2v setup they offer currently for 1/10th cars/stadium trucks) is ~130'F. Also low speed control like literally crawling up a curb is just incredible (like a brushed motor). There is also the cheaper Novak XBR system, though slower, it is able to handle 6-7cell nimh (or 2s lipo). The GTB systems are "officially" limited to 2s lipo or 7.2 volt nimh. Stupid fast enough though. Motors range from 3.5-7.5 (7.5 being the slowest...relatively). The numbers x.5 is the number of turns of the stator. Not the same as brushed motor turn count.

IF you don't want lipo due to it's expense, get yourself some decent batteries, like the nimh pack suggested above. Or IB4200/DTX 3800-4200 mah 6-cell packs.

Slo-V Flyer

About your question regarding amps and kv (rpm).

For general 1/10th use, you want motors that can handle anywhere from 60-100 amps. Kv rating wise, the faster the rating the less torque (they require more amps to generate the same amount of torque a slower motor would make).

I actually use a "slow" 2800 kv motor in my Rustler and on 3S with proper gearing it easily pops a 100 ft wheelies at 30+ mph. The motor I use is rated for 68 amps max, but it due to it's immense torque, it runs well enough (< 160'F with tall gearing for top speed, if I take it easy on the wheelies).

To give you an idea, the Mamba Max ESC is capable of handling 100 amps continous (assuming you are able to keep it cool).

AeroCat

My Feedback: (2)

This is the Mamba Max motor/ESC combo you want: http://www.castlecreations.com/products/mamba_max.html

There are 4 different motors with different Kv. Kv is the RPM per volt. So a 5700Kv motor running on 10V will spin at 57,000 rpm. So, high Kv motors will spin faster, low Kv motors slower. You gear accordingly. Note that the 7700Kv motor can only accept up to 2s Lipo. (7.4V nominal) 3s would over-rev the 7700Kv (and 6900Kv) motors and probably liquefy the bearings. ;-) (exaggerating)

I run 6cell NIMH in a brushless Rustler and it's peppy, but not stupid fast like the 3s Lipo trucks. For dirt racing I personally wouldn't want 3s lipo. I doubt it hooks up very well off-road. You could start out with 2s (2 cell) Lipo for good speed and save some money.

The Hyperion 5i is a good AC/DC Lipo/NIMH/ and whatever else, charger. You also want a Lipo balancer. Charger with balancer is $132 here: http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=d_EOS_5IDP

And to use the balancer you need to make sure your Lipo tap connector is the same as the hyperion balancer's tap connector. Balancing just ensures no Lipo cell exceeds 4.2V. Higher than that and bad things happen!! A 3s lipo is 11.1V nominal and 12.6V fully charged. 4.2V*3=12.6V.

As far as lipo brands, Maxamps seems to be popular and decently priced but I'm not convinced they can deliver their 20C rating. Top of the line cells are FlightPower and Thunder Power, but I rarely see any cars guys running these brands.

Mekong

If you just looking for a super fast car, I would go with a MM5700 setup, its pretty much the best bang for your $ these days.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXNKU1&P=ML

theres better prices out there but just a link to get you started.

Personally I would get a good lipo charger and two of the packs I listed, then see if you really wana pay 100$ +/- for a lipo pack, it always nice to have a few packs on hand. A 7.2v Nihm will be quite fast, I constantly can beat my friends HPI hellfire. The 9.6v packs I listed make it really haul ass.

(oh and that swami-rc link I posted doesnt work heres a fixed one http://www.swami-rc.com/WheelieBar.htm )

depro

my advice would be to go brushless and lipo or li-ion right away
i used IB4200's with my 10xl and already roasted one cell and had to take it out of the pack!
your gonna be spending the money on it sometime or another so just get some awesome batteries to start with.
if your just looking for fun, definitely get the Traxxas Rustler.
i have it and it has never let me down yet. not one broken part at all.
the mamba max is definitely my favorite esc of all time as well.
it can handle pretty much anything i throw at it, unless i'm running when its 100 degrees outside
have fun with it man
if your not having fun then don't waste ur money
cuz if your having fun
money doesn't really matter
fun does haha

depro

by the way you might want to try some a123 racing packs
the website says they charge super fast and can put out some crazy amps continuous
i just bought some and can't wait to get them
http://www.a123racing.com/html/starterkits.html
there's the link

ENR_Kyle

ok.. this is alot of info, im just gonna bite the bullet and go for it..

As for the ESC/Motor Combo:
I went with the MM5700 (ORDER HAS BEEN PLACED)



3 cell Lipo Packs:
I am going to go lipo next summer, for now I just got two 8 cell hump packs

(ORDER HAS BEEN PLACED)



Charger:
Hyperion EOS 5i DP AC/DC Charger" found [link=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hyperion-EOS-5i-DP-AC-DC-Charger_W0QQitemZ140156333321QQihZ004QQcategoryZ34 063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]HERE[/link] for $115 (ebay)
(ORDER HAS BEEN PLACED)



Car/ Truck to put it all in:
Losi XXX-T (already own)

depro

dude seriously with all that power you can put it into almost anything you want
but definitely get something that is strong to start with
4wd will only slow you down
2wd will work just fine and will be faster and keep your system cooler- less drivetrain friction to overcome
don't get a stampede because it will flip much easier when you go to turn at high speed which will get very frustrating
get a stadium truck or buggy
my rustler handles just fine in the grass as long as you have the right tires and preload the suspension a bit more
go on google video and watch videos of vehicles that you might want to buy and see how they handle

Mekong

Theres really not many good 4wd electric chassis unless you wana go e-maxx or e-savage or nitro conversion

Phelansa

@ENR_Kyle

Here is some advise from somebody who make all the wrong desisions when I started.

Get GODD Lipo cells. Not the cheap stuff. Maxamps are ok but not brilliant. Look at Hyperion/Flight Power/Thunderpower.
Your charger is more imprtant than you think... I went through 3 brfore I bought myself the Hyperion 5i.
Dont be fooled by KV ratings. High KV's are NOT always better. I would seriously reccomend you look at the Mamba Max 4600 if you are going to run 3S LiPo.
Novaks systems run a lot cooler than the MM's but do not offer the same amount of power for similarly rated motors. They are a lot easier to set up though.

I will say this again to make sure you understand. High KV ratings are not always better. Take the Mamaba Max motors for example. The CM36 series of motors are rated for 65 000RPM maximum. So MM6900 at 10V (3S Lipo under load delivers about 10 volts) and the motor is allready past its max design speed. So to answer you... no you should not run the 6900 on 3S. The MM4600 will be pushing out very cloe to 50 000RPM on 3S LiPo in anycase. If you add to that the Kt (Torque per amp) of the 4600 over the 6900 you will see that you can gear the 4600 to be just as fast as the 6900 without having to worry about over heating.

You get lower heat, better run times, longer lasting motors and battery life.... Why on earth would you want to for anything less? I own several brushlless power systems and having finally learnt my lesson I am waiting for my MM4600 to arrive in the post.

Slo-V Flyer

As for lipo, you really want to get something that will handle at least 80+ amps constant. The 3200 mah E-Flite battery you listed may be ok for certain uses (larger airplanes, less powerful car systems etc) but you want something that can handle the amp draw from the motors which can be quite a bit especially with stop and go driving.

My Maxamps 3s 5000 hasn't had any problems yet after almost 10 runs. In 90'F weather, whether in my E-Maxx or my Rustler, it stays around ~105'F and as it gets near depletion, it starts to heat up, but buy then I've had my fun for almost 20 minutes.

As for the cheapest price for the Mamba 5700 or 4600 system, you want to look at b-p-p.com. They often have it on sale for $179 shipped!

And yeah, the 5700 might heat up more fast in a vehicle, the 4600 may be better of a "heat-issues headache" free setup. Again, gearing is key so that you don't overheat whichever motor. If you're geared too high you will easily heat your motor upwards of 180'F within a couple of minutes (just ask me).

Oh, and the Mamba motors themselves are not for use with larger monster trucks like the E-Maxx or E-Savage. They simply lack the proper torque and will overheat if ran for a couple of minutes, regardless of gearing it's not worth the risk. You CAN use other motors designed for larger vehicles though, such as the Feigao 7XL-9XL, but then you'll need 11-14 volts to go anywhere fast.

My advice would be to take it easy with lipo, infact get a good nimh first to get used to the system/vehicle/driving before dumping $250 into lipo and coming out with a sour experience. It's definitely NOT like nitro. It will bite you when you least expect it. The power-to-weight ratio is insane, and if you're not careful, you'll be popping wheelies and crashing often.

For the truck, it's simple. Get one that your LHS carries parts for. Why crash in 1 minute and wait 1 week for one broken part? Usually most LHS carry the... Rustler. Surprise. But you get what you think will be good for your use.

ENR_Kyle

Thank you everyone for the input, I really apreciate all the help..

ok, I see now that I need to get a 4600 or 5700.. I dont want to let the car cool off all the time but I do want sick speeds.. you have strong points there Phelansa, and I see what your saying,. so I will step it down a little and compromise.. I will go with the 5700. alot of people recomeneded it and I believe I can get it to run cool with the right gearing.. I will get it from b-p-p.com for $179 (THE ORDER HAS BEEN PLACED), the 5700 seems to be the most popular kit used when looking at brushless on youtube.


After what you said Slo-V I think I will start with NiMh.. Im sure it will still blow my mind - and I will always know that I can get more out of it with lipo. I planned on gettin a few NiMh to keep me rolling inbetween lipo charges. So, Mekong posted [link=http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1711]THIS[/link] link of some very attractivly priced hump packs with relitavly high Mah. I am prepared to order 2 of these if one more person can confirm that these are good cells?

I found what look like the same brand name batteries in a hunp pack for quite a bit cheeper on ebay - [link=http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-9-6V-4200mAh-Hump-NiMH-Battery-Pack-for-RC-Car-Dean_W0QQitemZ330163667144QQihZ014QQcategoryZ34063 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]HERE[/link] is the link. do these check out?


For the charger I have decided to go with the "Hyperion EOS 5i DP AC/DC Charger" found [link=http://cgi.ebay.com/Hyperion-EOS-5i-DP-AC-DC-Charger_W0QQitemZ140156333321QQihZ004QQcategoryZ34 063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]HERE[/link] for $115 (ebay)
I have heard alot of people talking highly about this charger, and If I am droping alot of money into battries.. I should be able to charge them right
(ORDER HAS BEEN PLACED)

Slo-V Flyer

I don't have experience with those humpback nimh batteries, but you are going to be ok with the motor you chose (though on the hotter side between the 4600 and 5700).. If you are going to get the Rustler, you will want to start out by getting rid of the stock pinion (for later use whenever) and start with a 12t pinion, especially when using 3s lipo. Many others, and myself included, have found the Mamba motors to be easy to heat up. So the low gearing should give you a good safe starting point. I assume you have a temp gun of some sort to give you readings of your nitro stuff? You will want to keep that at all times especially running 3S lipo, checking the temps every couple of minutes. You don't really want to let the temps get above 160-175'F, just to keep things in good shape. As you know 200'F and the magnets will get damaged. The ESC might reach 140-150'F with 3S lipo, but you can hook up a tiny 25-40mm cpu fan on the heat sink, not a big deal, you'll be ok.

Lipos should not go over 140'F. In fact if they are 140'F, you may already be damaging them. So depending on what kind you get (like my 3s 5000) you won't really have that much of a problem. Just keep an eye on it. As for Nimh, I've exceeded 150'F a few times, but that's risky, as the cells might have a reduced lifespan with constant heat. SidexSide soldered nimh are always better/efficient. Though with the Rusty, you might have to do some bit of grinding to make room for them (battery bars stick out on the sides), and/or fit them kinda' diagonally (instead of sitting flat on the bottom).

A clamp heat sink for the motor might be a good idea. Nothing fancy, just something to help cool it off. I can get one for $5-10 from my LHS. You might have to Dremel away some of the rear motor guard plastic to fit one.

Phelansa

Nice charger that. It will give you good service. Just add a ballancer when you are ready to switch to LiPo. The Hyperion LBA10 works a treat with that charger and will allow you to charge up to 6S LiPos.

As to the MM5700, it is a nice motor. It will serve you well as long as you keep an eye on the temps and get the gearing sorted properly. It is stupidly fast on 3S LiPo.

I have to push B-P-P here. Troy goes out of his way to assist his customers. I have had nothing but exeptional service from him. You might even consider buying your balancer and LiPo accesories from him. When you add the free shipping he offers it is really hard to beat B-P-P's prices!

ENR_Kyle

Slo-V - ok.. good to hear that I will be ok with the 5700. I do have a heat gun thing, I will be sure to monitor it alot.. I will get a heat sink but I do not have a local hobby shop.. gonna have to use ebay. but this is a pic of the back on the Losi XXX-T that I am most likely going to use, so I dont think I can get a heatsink on there can I:



I will keep it how it is for now and see what kind of temps I run, If I have to I can remove the brace/guard and put a heat sink in.

billdee

what kind of nitro trucks are you running. i just put on a set of t-maxx rims and tires onto my kyosho mad force the stock big bulky tirers were holding it back. when this thing shifts into 3rd gear its insane speed, will put it up against lipo any day of the week for top speed . don't get me wrong the lipo pwered trucks are fast but some times you need to change your set up to release the power of nitro. n.o.s will be the next big wave that hits the rc world. kits are already showing a 20 to 30 % gain in power.if your going to switch over to electric i would check out the new vxl stampede or rustler they can do over 65mph with the right batterie

Slo-V Flyer

Yeah it seems that the motor guard is kinda' keep it or lose it. If you do use a heat sink, you'll risk scratching and bumping your motor often. But then it's a XXX-T, so it should be a little bit lighter than a Rustler, i.e. slightly less heat. BTW, balancing your rear tires seems to be a good way to keep motor stress (heat) low, especially with 2.2" truck tires compared to cars/buggies. Good luck!

ENR_Kyle

I am a little confused about the ballancer thing, can you explain?





I am not running anything special at all, its a Redcat Tsunami with a .18, all stock.. but my friend just got a revo 3.3 and he was gettin smoked.. that thing was fast!! I like nitro, but I just cant tune them well and I always feel like somehting is going to go wrong..

Phelansa

A balancer allows you to "balance" the voltage of each cell in the LiPo pack. The main function would be to protect any low charged calls in the pack. The Hyperion balancer that works with the EOS 5i charger can balance the cells while it is connected to the charger or as a stand alone unit. You probably know this allready but discharging a LiPo cell below 3 volts will damage the cell permanently or might even cause it to break down chemicaly. LiPo cell are a LOT more finicky than NiMh or NiCd.

Your Mamba Max ESC has a built in low voltage cutoff to protect LiPo packs. It only reads total voltage from the pack though. And Series connection will show the total voltage of the cells. Lets say for some reason one cell in a 3 cell pack is low... the total voltage could still show safe and the ESC will keep drawing power. That one Low cell could drop below 3V and damage the pack.. It might even explode in the car.

Hyperion is very clear on this... they "Strongly" recomend using a balancer with LiPo or A123 type batteries.