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RE: Some early digital proportional history - 11/30/2007 4:12:26 PM   
ukengineman


 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/1/2006
From: London, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		I wanted to be able to swap between normal F&M mode and Futaba mode so I left the diode grotto2 has pointed out in place and cut the track going to it. I then bridged the gap with a 0.1 inch pitch header which you can fit a jumper over to go back to F&M mode. Attached is a picture of the mod, it does need care to do.
As grotto2 pointed out you can get the waveforms I posted from pick up near the antenna. Best thing is to put an RF choke across the scope probes to prevent pick up of mains hum etc. Your scope will need to have enough bandwidth.

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(in reply to Doc.316)
       Post #: 76

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/1/2007 2:12:57 AM   
Doc.316


 

Posts: 103
Joined: 11/22/2007
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Status: offline 		Wow!
Thanks Grotto2 and ukengineman! I can't express my thanks enough for the detailed information on the conversion. I bought a bunch of old stuff in a box at the local auction and the transmitter was in there. My daughter fell in love with the pretty blue color. Well I thought all old proportional radios were compatible so I bought a futaba reciever for it. This puts the project back on one of my front burners. Thanks again.

Steve

(in reply to ukengineman)
       Post #: 77

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/1/2007 7:39:39 AM   
Ed Cregger



Posts: 7744
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Ringgold, GA, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: maxpower1954

OK, now that I've asked Jaymen to list available digital systems in the U.S. from 1964 to about 1970, let's see what I can come up with from memory.

F & M Digital 5 (claimed to be first commercial digital system, according to 1965 RCM review)
C & S (originally Digi-Con)
Bonner Digimite
Micro-Avionics
Kraft
PCS (Kraft design)
E-K Logictrol
Orbit
Deans
Min-X
Digitrio (scratch build or World Engines kits, RCM articles)
Controlaire (World Engines)
Citizen-Ship
Heathkit (Kraft design, kit)
M.A.N. 2-3-4 (MAN articles, World Engines kit)
RCM Classic (RCM articles, did this become Royal systems?)
Pro-Line
O.S.
MRC-Futaba

The only one extant today is Futaba...kinda sad, really. Well, except Deans makes electric stuff - I only use the Deans Ultra-plug on my ESCs and batteries.

Tonight I was flipping through a 1953 M.A.N., and was amazed to find a Sullivan Products ad for a plastic 1/2A canopy! They are still with us...Russ Farris




----------------


In the Seventies I met a fellow named Dave Salayo (I do not know how to properly spell his last name). Dave owned an R/C manufacturing company that went by SLS. I saw a few of his radios in the field. What started out as a good idea ended in disaster for both Dave and his customers.

I'm not sure of the details of the story, but I "think" he designed his Tx around a then new chip, had the boards made up and after the initial production run, the chip was discontinued. Unfortunately, the SLS radios had a multitude of problems. The company went under, but over the years a student pilot would come to the field with a bargain R/C system he had found at an unbelievably low price and then the fun would begin. How do you tell someone that they threw away their money?

I met Dave and he seemed like a very honest and intelligent person. His gear looked to be high quality and his intent seemed to be to produce a high quality product, but his luck went totally the wrong way - from the best of my recollections.

Don't take anything I've said to heart regarding the reason his company failed. It has been many, many years since I've heard anyone talking about Dave and SLS. My "facts" may be entirely off base, except for my impressions made when speaking to the man at a flying field near Gibbstown, NJ in the Seventies. He was smart, an excellent R/C pilot and was very friendly.


Ed Cregger


_____________________________

Artisan

"Flying models since the Fifties - I'll get the hang of this yet!!!"

(in reply to maxpower1954)
       Post #: 78

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/1/2007 8:01:04 AM   
Ed Cregger



Posts: 7744
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Ringgold, GA, USA
Status: online 		I owned and flew three Micro Avionics rigs. The first, an XL-IC on 27.195 MHz, never missed a beat in the two years that I flew it. And heavily at that.

The second, an earlier used 1968 Micro Avionics system with servos that were held in place by flat spring clips, was problematic. It would fly fine for a while and then the controls would lock up at the extremes. Pick up the crash remains, turn the power on and it worked fine again. Even range checked fine with engine vibration. Even the factory couldn't stop it from locking up periodically.

The third was an orange cased Micro Avionics with D&R open gimbal sticks. It worked perfectly too for several years. I do tend to fly in close, but never noticed a range problem with mine. The latter rigs were on 72 MHz.

I flew the snot out of a brand new Orbit four channel rig and a six channel rig, bought some years later and interstitially with the Micro Avionics rigs. Couldn't afford that extra $125 for a Kraft four channel rig in those days. My good job with the Dupont company paid $2.62 per hour to start back then (1969).

Anyone remember the Series 73 Kraft receivers that didn't work reliably and couldn't be fixed? Several friends bought systems that included that receiver. They ended up buying and building Cannon receiver kits for them, until Kraft produced a good receiver again.


Ed Cregger


_____________________________

Artisan

"Flying models since the Fifties - I'll get the hang of this yet!!!"

(in reply to jaymen)
       Post #: 79

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/1/2007 2:57:48 PM   
Doc.316


 

Posts: 103
Joined: 11/22/2007
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Status: offline 		Keeping with the vintage RC discussion. Attached is a jacket patch. It is a futaba patch. I had it on my jacket in high school. I am er...43.

How do you guys get such good pictures of these. I guess I will have to get a better camera next time...sorry for the bad quality photo.

Hey I thought I would try and add a suggestion for cleaning "pots" on vintage radios. Have you guys tried deoxit? It is really great stuff! I found out about it when I was restoring VTVM's. It will clean pots, switches, and rotary switches..(haven't seen one of those in a vintage radio but I am a fawn in the radio control repair deal). You ought to try it if you have some old equipment that hasn't been used for a while.

Steve

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(in reply to Ed Cregger)
       Post #: 80

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/1/2007 4:58:09 PM   
ukengineman


 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/1/2006
From: London, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Steve, I always liked the blue finish on the F&M equipment as well. If your F&M Digital 5 transmitter still has the original NiCad battery fitted you will need to change it. The original was 7.2V 1.2Ah, I have fitted a 7.2V 2400mAh NiMh pack. Current draw is about 250mA.
Alan

(in reply to Doc.316)
       Post #: 81

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/2/2007 5:08:38 AM   
Doc.316


 

Posts: 103
Joined: 11/22/2007
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Status: offline 		ukengineman;
Yep it is going to get a brand new battery for it...pots cleaned....etc. It really must have been a "cadilac" of radio systems when it was made. Oh wait er a "jaguar" of radio systems. I kind of got into the second/third generation of radio systems when I got into RC in the early 70's. Actually my first radio was a futaba dad bought me when we lived in great yarmouth. It was a Futaba/Ripmax two channel brick. It still works! I have the transmitter running some am jrpropo recievers. I do remember having to buy a license to run the 27mhz rig. I really wanted one of those mcgreggors they were another beautiful blue radio that could be bought in plus one configuration
Steve

(in reply to ukengineman)
       Post #: 82

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/5/2007 10:47:58 PM   
jaymen


 

Posts: 239
Joined: 3/26/2003
From: Mission Viejo, CA, USA
Status: offline 		The above stories bring to mind the stories of the old days when it was said you needed three radios if you flew proportional: One in the plane, one at the factory getiing serviced, and one on the way back!!

It was common for the manufacturers to test fly each and every radio, especially the ones sent in for service. I know Space Controls were all test flown personally by Zel. Galatron advertized they had Ted White test flying each new radio. I met a guy who worked on the side for Phil Kraft, his job was to test fly repaired radios prior to them being returned to the customer. Phil set him up with several test planes, and all the spares he would need. He told me there was a backlog of radios that needed test flying, as that part took the most time and made the turn-around time of repairs quite long. To resolve that, Phil had several guys set-up with planes to do the test flying. Phil's policy was that any radio returned for service had to be flown before being deemed flight worthy.

In those early days, guys made jokes about the antics displayed by fellow R/C pilots using the early full-house digital proportional equipement as they chased their out of control plane down the runway with the transmitter held high overhead and shouting: "I ain't got it!!" They called it the "Digimite Dance", or the"F&M Shuffle". Some deemed proportional as an automatic aircraft dissposal system!

_____________________________

Did you charge the transitory remitter batteries ?

(in reply to Doc.316)
       Post #: 83

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/8/2007 12:58:52 AM   
MX240



Posts: 334
Joined: 11/10/2003
From: PoDunk City, NE, USA
Status: offline 		A Orbit 7-14 and a free?? Kraft jacket you got with your new Signature Series Kraft radio which at that time cost $700...but not sure about the cost.

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       Post #: 84

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/8/2007 7:10:33 AM   
Doc.316


 

Posts: 103
Joined: 11/22/2007
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Status: offline 		So MX240 do you wear that jacket when you go to the flying field? That is too cool! It would be pretty neet to show up with a Kraft radio wearing the jacket!

Hey I have a question to all the experts out there. What are the encoding schemes used on these old digital radios...? The F&M obviously has an extra (transmitter time off) than modern radios this is used for the "failsafe" wow were they forward looking. I put my early 70's transmitter on the scope and it looked "modern"...did all the radios in the 60's/70's use the same pulsetrain?

This is interesting to me since I have a book from the 1950's? that shows circuitry that emulates this same concept. It is called mark/space control and from what I can understand they turn the transmitter on and off using a mechanical drum...

So what exactly determines if a radio is "digtal?"

Steve

(in reply to MX240)
       Post #: 85

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/16/2007 4:59:32 AM   
Zel


 

Posts: 20
Joined: 11/28/2002
From: Anaheim, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Zel here,

Yes, the 172 was really a nice plane. I flew it several
times. I flew it to Flagstaff arizona for some demonstration
flying. The elevation there was about 7,000 feet. It took
all of the runway to get off the ground. We had about 3 feet
ground clearance when we crossed over the border of the
airport.

On another flight, out to the Anza mountain area south
east of Los Angeles. It was a hot afternoon and the
elevation was about 3,500 feet. After taking off I
manged to wipe out the horizontal elevator by flying
it through some vegitation! Also picked up some branches
hanging on the wheels on the landing struts.

It flew well all the way back to the long beach airport.
I didn't know the damage was done, except for the limbs
hanging on the struts, until I looked back when I went
to enter the landing pattern. I made a VERY CAREFUL
landing after seeing the damage to the elevator!

Just thought I would pass this on for anyone that might be
interested.

Zel Ritchie

(in reply to jaymen)
       Post #: 86

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/16/2007 5:10:46 AM   
Zel


 

Posts: 20
Joined: 11/28/2002
From: Anaheim, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jaymen

Just found this out:


Bob Dunham had a Cessna 172 Skylane(not a model) that he flew, so Cliffy, Phil, Bob, and Zel were all licensed pilots as well.


Zel here,

Yes, the 172 was really a nice plane. I flew it several
times. I flew it to Flagstaff arizona for some demonstration
flying. The elevation there was about 7,000 feet. It took
all of the runway to get off the ground. We had about 3 feet
ground clearance when we crossed over the border of the
airport.

On another flight, out to the Anza mountain area south
east of Los Angeles. It was a hot afternoon and the
elevation was about 3,500 feet. After taking off I
manged to wipe out the horizontal elevator by flying
it through some vegitation! Also picked up some branches
hanging on the wheels on the landing struts.

It flew well all the way back to the long beach airport.
I didn't know the damage was done, except for the limbs
hanging on the struts, until I looked back when I went
to enter the landing pattern. I made a VERY CAREFUL
landing after seeing the damage to the elevator!

Just thought I would pass this on for anyone that might be
interested.

Zel Ritchie

(in reply to jaymen)
       Post #: 87

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 12/20/2007 11:24:51 PM   
jaymen


 

Posts: 239
Joined: 3/26/2003
From: Mission Viejo, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Zel, I am interested if you remember Bob's reaction about the Cessna? See you tonight for dinner.

_____________________________

Did you charge the transitory remitter batteries ?

(in reply to Zel)
       Post #: 88

RE: Some early digital proportional history - 1/7/2008 8:36:33 PM