I CALLED SIG MANUFACTURING TODAY....  
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I CALLED SIG MANUFACTURING TODAY.... - 3/26/2003 2:22:56 AM   
rustyrivet


 

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		2fast:

You had me really worried there for awhile. I knew everything I experienced in the past with butyrate dope on my Guillows plane, and everything I am presently experiencing with it is contrary to the woes you are describing. Not wanting to screw-up a year long
project.....

I CALLED SIG TODAY AND SPOKE WITH JUSTIN VANDEE there at technical support to get his FINAL WORD ON THE MATTER. He said Butyrayrate dope has additives in it, it dries completely within a FEW DAYS, AND WILL NOT CONTIUOUSLY SHRINK, AND CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH PAINT LATER as you have described.

If anybody would like further information about Clear Butyrate Dope, Colored Butyrate Dope (paint), Nitrate dope, Koverall, additives etc., you can type in and visit "SIG Manufacturing" on the web where they post this information. Their phone number is posted there too if you have any further concerns they can answer for you.

Thank you 2fast and gentlemen for the input.
PS And I still don't like working with Doped Koverall, and prefer glass finishes.

< Message edited by RandallM. -- Mar 25 2003 9:29PM >

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 26

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 3/31/2003 9:17:52 AM   
big max 1935


 

Posts: 1671
Joined: 11/22/2002
From: huron s.d.
Status: offline 		Guess it`s time for my two cents worth, the Guillows planes all came with JAP tissue, applied dry with dope & shrunk with water(a buddy says alcohol is better for shrinking) Next was bamboo paper ,heaver than jap & went out with silk-span. Silk was fun & tough,used to be cheap but the worms got a union.Coverall & nylon are going to be frizzy, put a couple of coats of dope on & be sure to slop it around the edges, do like the man says trim it off with sand paper. Most people don`t put enough dope on before sanding & will get more frizzy. Now this may sound stupid to most of you but I have done this for years on all my coverings paper or cloth over open frame work,I use a rag from a old T shirt,lay it across what you are doping & dope the rag while pulling it toward the wing tip, or what ever, keep the rag saturated & moving, you will find it will fill the weave in one coat & will not puddle on inside of fabric.Works with both dopes. Dave Browns Flex-all I can`t find listed anymore,must be extinct. I just use a few drops of medical castor oil, no sweat. Retarder is only needed in last coat. Many full size aircraft from 20`s & 30`s were either aluminum(silver)colored & also had the same under the other colors, reason ? they found out it stops the UV rays of the sun so the fabric don`t deteriorate so fast. I really like Super-coverite & the old Silk-spun coverite but they are almost non-existent now. My old body shop buddy told me not to mess with a lacquer (dope) paint job if you can put your nose to it & can still smell it. All this works for me & I hope I didn`t bore you with a old fudds rantings . >>>>>>>>>>>big max 1935>>>>>>>>>>

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 27

Koverall - 4/2/2003 7:38:31 AM   
Ancientone


 

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/23/2002
From: Wofford Heights, CA, USA
Status: offline 		In all the hints for trimming Koverall no one has mentioned the good old PINKING shears. My best method is to put one coat of nitrate on the wood structure every place the fabric will touch. Then a 50/50 (thinned with MEK) coat of fabric cement (from Aircraft Spruce Co.). After this is dry lay the fabric down and brush some MEK through the fabric with a small brush. This will soften the cement, dry in 15 seconds, and nail the fabric in place. Then make a pencil line where you want to trim and cut along the line with the pinking shears. Take a Monokote iron and roll (not rub) the pinked edges around the structure and apply more MEK followed by nitrate dope. Heat shrink just enough to remove any wrinkles and firm up the fabric. Now wipe the whole thing down with a lint free rag and MEK or lacquer thinner. The reason for this step is that during the weaving process at the fabric mill, lubricant vapors get on the cloth and will cause nothing but pinholes when trying to fill the fabric. I first brush a thinned coat of nitrate over all the sheeted or solid areas to glue the fabric down and then a full coat of nitrate over the whole part. The nitrate dope does not really stick to the threads but flows around them and joins on the other side like powder coating a tube. The next coat should be buyterate dope thinned just enough to brush without roping. Of course we cover the bottom side first and bring the top around far enough to put the pinked edges on the bottom. These can be hidden with several coats of dope and talc, but I don't bother. From here you can go with color dope, enamel, waterbase paint or even Stitts Vinyl paint. I was able to paint my 1/3 scale Cub with only one quart of Stitts Cub Yellow. Using the pinking shears eliminates the thread separating. If you use epoxy paint, 2/3rds gloss hardener and 1/3rd flat hardner will give a non gloss finish that looks like a normal dope finish and lets just enough weave show to look scale.

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 28

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/5/2003 10:11:17 AM   
rustyrivet


 

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Guys, I'll tell you what I tried for the first time this last weekend that I DID like on my already thick brushed on butyrate doped Koverall finish:

Drum roll please.....

What I liked was using my standard Sears compressor and quart sized spray gun set around 30 lbs PSI to spray on a final thinned butyrate dope mist on top of the 4 coats of butyrate dope that I've brushed on already in previous weeks.

The spray evaporates very rapidly, so it dries almost as fast as it goes on. It fills and covers the fine brush marks, and dries leaving a fine grainy texture that easilly sands smooth with the soft stroke of 400 grit paper. Areas that look to be needing a little extra filling can be hit over and over if need be. (to build it up)

I kid you not that you can sand the sprayed butyrate just about a minute or two after it was sprayed on!!!!!

(yep! Using acetone for thinner dries FAAASSSTTT!!!!!)

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 29

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/5/2003 10:13:12 PM   
big max 1935


 

Posts: 1671
Joined: 11/22/2002
From: huron s.d.
Status: offline 		Don`t fool your self ! If you can smell it don`t mess with it! Given enough time all the brush marks will disappear. MAX

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       Post #: 30

Re: Koverall - 4/6/2003 7:44:24 AM   
CafeenMan



Posts: 3907
Joined: 1/19/2003
From: Spring Hill, FL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2fast

First of all I don't use "stix-it", I use Nitrate dope. Two coats on the bare structure with light sanding after each. Then lay the Koverall over the structure, overlapping about an inch or two all around. Then just paint 2 coats of thinned Nitrate dope around the perimeter.

The trick here is in the trimming. This is the way we have always done it with silkspan and silk. Get out the old sanding block and just run it around the perimenter and it will trim that Koverall neat as you please. Now paint another coat over the trimmed areas and sand lightly. Shrink with the heat gun and then repeat for the other side.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I was going to say. Use dope to attach it and it gives the advantage of making it really easy to trim without fraying. Plus when you heat shrink it you don't have to worry about stix-it or whatever adhesive loosening when it gets warm from the heat gun.

If you do use stix-it in the future, dope the edges of the fabric before you trim it (using sandpaper as above) and you shouldn't have any of the problems you had.

_____________________________

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       Post #: 31

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/6/2003 9:14:58 AM   
rustyrivet


 

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Yep Cafeenman,
I listened closely to what 2fast was saying about using a sanding block to cut through the Koverall. I was able to eliminate more then half of the surfaces that were fuzzing and fraying. There's still some areas, like on fuse nose curves where it was tricky, but a lot of the seams that should have been much easier, did now become easier. I basically made sure the seam or the over hang to be cut was doped good!
THE WHOLE REASON MODERN DAY GUYS LIKE ME CAN HAVE THE FUZZING AND FRAYING PROBLEM FROM THE START, IS BECAUSE OF THE AVAILABILITY OF STIX-IT. The STIX-IT made me do it!! I'm a victim!! I'll sue them at Sig! (yea you know, like guns cause crime, and matches cause forest fires, haha) When using stix-it, it is not necessary to apply dope to the koverall or balsa surfaces to tack it down. Therefore it is easy to make the mistake of trying to cut the koverall dry and without dope on it after is is held down using only the stix-it. Thus the dry and undoped Koverall shreds easilly. In the old days before stix-it, doing the job ass backwards would not have been possible because you used the dope to hold the covering down. Therefore the koverall would already have had dope on it, and thus the fraying problems not occurred.

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 32

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/6/2003 9:27:25 AM   
CafeenMan



Posts: 3907
Joined: 1/19/2003
From: Spring Hill, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Before you sue anyone, I suggest you heat the stuff up to boiling and pour it in your lap. The can doesn't specifically say you shouldn't do that, so you should have a case.

_____________________________

Work is what I do for the love of it. A job is how I pay for it. :)
Please visit AirfieldModels.com

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 33

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/6/2003 9:29:28 AM   
CafeenMan



Posts: 3907
Joined: 1/19/2003
From: Spring Hill, FL, USA
Status: offline 		PS. Don't actually do that.

_____________________________

Work is what I do for the love of it. A job is how I pay for it. :)
Please visit AirfieldModels.com

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 34

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/6/2003 9:29:29 AM   
rustyrivet


 

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Big Max 1935
Not a ranting at all. I appreciate your input and read the postings from all.
I'm not sure what you meant about the brush marks disappearing. But, evidently I gather that you sure don't like working with chemicals or fumes? Do you have a low tolerance to the likes?

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 35

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/6/2003 2:30:35 PM   
big max 1935


 

Posts: 1671
Joined: 11/22/2002
From: huron s.d.
Status: offline 		Dope & any lacquer type finish has a very slow drying process. At first touch you would think it dry but that is just the outer skin and that slows drying of the previous coats. It traps the lighter ends of the dope, thats why you can smell it long after you think it is dry . What I meant was if you can smell it don`t sand or try to rub it out it`s not ready yet & you can possibly harm your finish & about the same time the smell is gone MOST brush marks would be gone. Me,I love the smell of the stuff(my wife hates it,think after45 years she would be used to it?). I sure miss Banana Oil , now that was a real smell! MAX H

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 36

So this is how we do Sig Koverall and dope! - 4/7/2003 7:16:35 AM   
rustyrivet


 

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by CafeenMan
Before you sue anyone, I suggest you heat the stuff up to boiling and pour it in your lap. The can doesn't specifically say you shouldn't do that, so you should have a case. [/QUOTE]

Hmmm...... You're right! If you can make a $million on a hot cup of McDonalds Coffee, why not try it with a hot pot of dope?. Realizing Sig probably doesn't have as much to spend as McDonalds, I'd be gracious and accept part ownership of their company instead.

But on second thought, scalding my groin like that? For a good buck I could get over that. BUT, the name calling I'd have to hear from my wife for the rest of my life woudn't be worth it.

(in reply to rustyrivet)
       Post #: 37

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