Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (Full Version)

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judsterky -> Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/9/2007 2:38:28 AM)

I have the Hanger 9 Miss America and I'm not sure what engine to put in it. Ever since I've been in this hobby I used OS and never had a problem with them. But now I'm worried about mounting my first engine inverted and heard some bad news about this, flooding dead stick etc. I was told to go with a pump which I never owned and I was also told that a OS 91 surpass II with pump is more powerful than the non-pump which don't make any sense. I could go with a Saito 100 but I don't think that has a pump. Also I heard Saitos are gas guzzlers. The other thing is I don't want this plane underpowered. I like unlimited vertical and plenty of power without adding too much weight.

I like to hear your opinions, it would be greatly appreciated.

David



Steve Collins -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/9/2007 3:02:01 AM)

I had one with an O.S. 1.20 Surpass III turning a 14X10 APC prop on 30% nitro all synthetis heli-mix fuel. Lots of power and reasonably fast (mid 120s). A great engine combination. The pump just means your tank placement is not critical and it provides a constant fuel flow throughout the flight rather than a tendency to lean out a bit as fuel burns off.



bigtim -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/9/2007 3:25:58 AM)

my H-9 P-51 is powered by a OS91 surpassII no pump, it flys fine and is plenty fast,all my flying warbirds have inverted OS91 surpass engines,H-9 Mustang,H-9 P-40,and Top Flight spitfire with a OS91spIIpumped, there all great engines, all inverted.
if you want unlimited vertical go with the 120 but your going to have alot of head sticking out the bottom of the cowl.
I usually fly a 14/6 to 14/8 mas 2bl prop,my P-40 has a 14/7 3blade it really hauls.
here's a spec check
pumped 91 http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBY61&P=0
non pumped 91 http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSY82&P=0
no advertised power difference.



SheriffBufordTJustice -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 1:01:33 AM)

What diameter would a scale sized prop be for this plane? I am using a .75 two-stroke swinging a 13x12.5 apc. I have not flown this combo yet but i'm hoping the engine unloads in the air. I plan to use the flightglow onboard glow ignitor. http://www.c-tronicsinc.com/flightglowIIinstructions4-04.htm It comes on at 1/4 throttle and lower. I would also like to get a 4 blade prop from zinger in the appropriate scale diameter then go with an engine that could swing it! http://www.zingerpropeller.com/4_bladed_propeller.htm



fredscz -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 1:34:02 AM)

David, It seems you have some good advice but didn't get all your questions answered. As you may know you can't go wrong with either the OS or Saito engines. The Saito's ARE NOT fuel guzzlers. If it seems your Saito is using too much fuel then the low end is not properly adjusted or you have a fuel leak. A lot of the guys I fly with just will not lean the low end properly and then have the same complaint. If you want power without the weight then I would go with a Saito 125 since you say you don't want it under powered. Don't fear an inverted four stroke. After a short breakin they run just fine no matter which way they are mounted as long as you get the midline of the tank and carb half way level. Set your needles with the tank 1/4 full and you won't have to worry about the fuel level causing a lean condition.
Fred



SunShyne -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 2:12:24 AM)

think we had a member who flew his with a YS 110 and it flew great

good luck with your search



pdansalvish -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 2:13:55 AM)

I fly my P-51 with a Satio 100. I have an on-board glow from EMD for starting the engine. Plane is a real floater and a nice bird. It is now a 3D plane. I'm in the process of uprading the retracts to LADO retracts. These are electric. Will post on results in a few weeks.



judsterky -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 4:10:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fredscz

David, It seems you have some good advice but didn't get all your questions answered. As you may know you can't go wrong with either the OS or Saito engines. The Saito's ARE NOT fuel guzzlers. If it seems your Saito is using too much fuel then the low end is not properly adjusted or you have a fuel leak. A lot of the guys I fly with just will not lean the low end properly and then have the same complaint. If you want power without the weight then I would go with a Saito 125 since you say you don't want it under powered. Don't fear an inverted four stroke. After a short breakin they run just fine no matter which way they are mounted as long as you get the midline of the tank and carb half way level. Set your needles with the tank 1/4 full and you won't have to worry about the fuel level causing a lean condition.
Fred



Fredscz

Thanks for all of your input, helped out a lot. Horizon told me to use an on board glow and I will be fine, but I may not even go that far. One thing I know about this hobby is if you do things the right way then you don't have to buy all of these other accessories that you don't need. Others in my club said I will definitely need a pump. Go figure!

Thanks!



judsterky -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 4:11:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pdansalvish

I fly my P-51 with a Satio 100. I have an on-board glow from EMD for starting the engine. Plane is a real floater and a nice bird. It is now a 3D plane. I'm in the process of uprading the retracts to LADO retracts. These are electric. Will post on results in a few weeks.



Thanks for the info, let me know about your retracts.

David



bigtim -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 5:41:36 AM)

you shouldn't need a pump no need to complicate your life.
as for the retracts that come with the ARF there OK and will work fine,the struts are a bit wobbley,mine bent on a simple turn around when I pulled the strut I heated it up with a mini tourch and dipped it in water hardened that wire right up,took the other one out and did it also there both nice and stiff and I haven't had any problems with bending at all since.
did the same for my H-9 P-40 also helped alot,the wire is pretty flexable.



kahloq -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 6:47:29 AM)

No pump needed for inverted saito 100's or saito 125a's. I have both motors and both are mounted inverted with no pump. Neiother one has an onboard glow either. They arent fule hogs and the saito 100 will run for 14 mins on a 14oz tank. I have a saito 91 with a 16oz tank that will fly for 18 mins...go figure.
Now, as far as Im concerned, once you get into the 150 size motor and above, an onboard glow starts to make a loot fo sense considering the cost of the plane those motors usually go in.
I have a saito 180 in a KMP ME-109 and its got onboard glow. I'd rather not have a deadstick on a high wingloading scale plane and the replacement cost for the ME-109 is quite high if it were to be get damaged badly.



dubd -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 7:13:46 AM)

I'll chime in here on the Saito 100/125 on this plane. I had 2 H9 Mustangs, one with a Saito 100 and other with a 125. The 100 was most optimal because it vibrated less. The 125 shook the crap out of the plane and actually damaged my elevator. I had both inverted and no pump or onboard glow in necessary. In fact, you're not going to need a pump unless you plan to do some high energy Matt Chapman/Sean Tucker style aerobatics, which this plane is not capable of. Also, both Saitos were good on fuel economy and sounds a heck of a lot cooler than a OS 2 stroke. :)



eugene -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 12:34:42 PM)


Judsterky,
I have used many 4cyl engines inverted......no problems......looking from the front of the plane, I mount the engine slightly off center, like 7:00 oclock, this puts the exhaust port in a down angle, and prevents fuel puddling in the head..
Use the OS four cycle plug with this, and you'll not need on board glow nor pumps...



kahloq -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/16/2007 4:58:12 PM)

Angling the cylinder head away from 90 degrees is fine if there's cowl space, but doesnt prevent pooling, but does lessen it some. On all of my saito motors that are inverted, I do NOT prime them to start. I simply open the throttle to 1/4 or so and attach the glow driver. Then, use an electric starter and viola, its up and running and theres no chance of flooding the engine unless you already have a siphon problem.
As far as the exhaust port, it can be anywhere and it still can be routed to wherever you want using right angle adapters or flexpipes.



dspadler -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (10/24/2007 8:56:53 PM)

I just mounted a Satio 100 in my new P-47 inverted and had a problem with the idle when I disconnected the Glow starter . I couldnt get an idle any less than 2600 RPM. I turned the low idle screw very gently all the way in then turned it back out 1.5 turns. After you start it back and you remove the glow starter you may have to turn the low idle screw a bit more either way (probably close more) but make very very slight changes. The factory has the low idle set pretty rich for the break in period. Now mine idles and runs fine and transitions fine, inverted and no on-board glow. Also you might try a glow plug with an idle bar sometimes this will help with an inverted engine but you shoulnt need it with a Satio inverted. Ive had several Satios and Id say about half of them have been inverted with no problem after break-in.



judsterky -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/10/2008 8:07:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kahloq

No pump needed for inverted saito 100's or saito 125a's. I have both motors and both are mounted inverted with no pump. Neiother one has an onboard glow either. They arent fule hogs and the saito 100 will run for 14 mins on a 14oz tank. I have a saito 91 with a 16oz tank that will fly for 18 mins...go figure.
Now, as far as Im concerned, once you get into the 150 size motor and above, an onboard glow starts to make a loot fo sense considering the cost of the plane those motors usually go in.
I have a saito 180 in a KMP ME-109 and its got onboard glow. I'd rather not have a deadstick on a high wingloading scale plane and the replacement cost for the ME-109 is quite high if it were to be get damaged badly.


Kahlog,

That is great news. I will be buying a saito 125 soon for my Miss America. Do you have any tips on mounting this engine inverted? Too many people in my club tells me you need an on board glow. Maybe they don't know how to line up the carb with the tank right. One guy just told me that you definatily need a perry pump.

Let me know if you have any install tips. Thanks!

David



Jetdktr -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/10/2008 8:23:08 PM)

Have you ever considered converting it to electric. The EFlight 60 outrunner lists the Miss America conversion in the instructions. The instructions show you a couple of different setup combinations depending on what kind of performance you want. The motor fits completely under the cowl, nothing sticking out, most of all no slimey mess when you are done flying. Check it out!!!



judsterky -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/10/2008 9:47:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jetdktr

Have you ever considered converting it to electric. The EFlight 60 outrunner lists the Miss America conversion in the instructions. The instructions show you a couple of different setup combinations depending on what kind of performance you want. The motor fits completely under the cowl, nothing sticking out, most of all no slimey mess when you are done flying. Check it out!!!


Jetdktr,

Thanks for the info on electric. IMO I still think electrics are a big expense. Often times I argue will freinds about this and think I'm crazy. But all the batteries you need and charge times, its an inconveniences to me. I tell people I have 5 minutes to clean up slime in replace of about $300.00 more dollars. LOL

What's your opinion? I am tight when it comes to funds, like a lot of people. It cost about $200.00 just to get a freakin $25.00 flat out in the air.



Schweizer K -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/10/2008 11:43:50 PM)

Judsturky- I installed a saito 1.00 in my H-9 Miss America and flew with it for 2 years. Plenty of power. Summer time flying in SLC ( 90-100 deg. 4300 ft asl ) the motor gets a little weak but still flyable. I then installed a saito 1.25 . Bigger prop, a little more speed , more verticle climb. At lower elevation I think this combo would really move this plane. I also installed 2 retract servos for the robart retracts and struts. Yes a little more weight but very good ground handling and they can take those not so perfect touch downs. I do not find the 1.25 to very hungry for fuel, 8-10 min flight 3/4 tank (16 oz.) I use 30 percent nitro, heli plus.

Good luck- Keith



judsterky -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/10/2008 11:53:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schweizer K

Judsturky- I installed a saito 1.00 in my H-9 Miss America and flew with it for 2 years. Plenty of power. Summer time flying in SLC ( 90-100 deg. 4300 ft asl ) the motor gets a little weak but still flyable. I then installed a saito 1.25 . Bigger prop, a little more speed , more verticle climb. At lower elevation I think this combo would really move this plane. I also installed 2 retract servos for the robart retracts and struts. Yes a little more weight but very good ground handling and they can take those not so perfect touch downs. I do not find the 1.25 to very hungry for fuel, 8-10 min flight 3/4 tank (16 oz.) I use 30 percent nitro, heli plus.

Good luck- Keith



Keith,

I assume you mounted the engine inverted. What are your tips in preventing flooding. Do you have an on board glow or pump? If not, how did you mount the engine along with the position of the fuel tank.

Thanks!

David



Schweizer K -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/11/2008 12:37:47 AM)

David-
Yes I did mount the engine inverted. I did not use an onboard glow driver. My engine has never really quit on me for not using one. once you get the low end idle set the 1.25 will idle very good. If you did want to use an onboard glow driver you could possibly get the engine to idle a lower rpm. I mounted a glow plug port on the rt. side of the fuse next to my fuel filler port and switch. I usually leave the hot shot on untill I get to the runway, remove ,throttle up to clear out and go. I have the fuel tank mounted as per the instructions. But since I went with a larger tank it extends out into the servo bay area just a little. I took a pc of brass strap an bent it like a U only with a flat bottom and some tabs ot the top, to help hold the tank in place. Use foam as required for vibration. If you want to up the rpm a little the is a post under 4 strokes, turbo header. He makes after mkt mufflers for several makes and claims you can increase the rpms, plus they sound good. click on the link and he will send you a sound byte.
Keep me posted on your progress. This plane flies really well. So much so I just picked up the H-9 150 size mustang.

Good luck- Keith




bigtim -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/11/2008 5:18:41 AM)

David I am not sure who is telling you about problems with inverted 4st engines needing OB glow driver and all that, sure some problem engines need them,or poorly tuned ones.
as for the flooding issue,with 2strokes its alot more prevelent but with 4stroke engines it doesn't seem to be a problem at all,at least mine run fine all 4 are head down.
I have the tank close to the center of the carb line,basicly in the standard location its fine.



Rip n Bank -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/11/2008 10:27:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: judsterky


quote:

ORIGINAL: kahloq

No pump needed for inverted saito 100's or saito 125a's. I have both motors and both are mounted inverted with no pump. Neiother one has an onboard glow either. They arent fule hogs and the saito 100 will run for 14 mins on a 14oz tank. I have a saito 91 with a 16oz tank that will fly for 18 mins...go figure.
Now, as far as Im concerned, once you get into the 150 size motor and above, an onboard glow starts to make a loot fo sense considering the cost of the plane those motors usually go in.
I have a saito 180 in a KMP ME-109 and its got onboard glow. I'd rather not have a deadstick on a high wingloading scale plane and the replacement cost for the ME-109 is quite high if it were to be get damaged badly.


Kahlog,

That is great news. I will be buying a saito 125 soon for my Miss America. Do you have any tips on mounting this engine inverted? Too many people in my club tells me you need an on board glow. Maybe they don't know how to line up the carb with the tank right. One guy just told me that you definatily need a perry pump.

Let me know if you have any install tips. Thanks!

David


Hi David,

I fly both the "Marie" (w/ Saito 125) and "Frankie" (w/ Saito 220) H9 'Stangs, both with on-board glow. While it's a no-brainer to have on-board glow for the 220 in my giant 'Stang, it's more a matter of choice, over need, for the smaller P-51.

Even tuned right, with my 125 (throwing a MAS 16.8 prop), it was tough to get a reliable idle under 2400 rpm, which also meant the plane would taxi at 3-4 mph when at idle with that big prop! I also was concerned about the possibility of a deadstick on final approach when at very low throttle settings.

With the on-board glow (Cost: ~$60 and about 3 ounces weight), my 125 will idle through a whole tank (or glow battery charge) at 1950 rpm, and sit perfectly at rest on a smooth asphalt runway when at idle. Starting is also a breeze, but the real value, to me, is the piece of mind of knowing that when I do a high, full-flap (yeah, I bashed them onto Marie's wing), low-throttle final approach, it's unlikely the 125 will quit on me (and it never has).

The Perry pump is unnecessary. The tank nipples are about 1/2" behind the carb and muffler pressure for the tank is more than adequate to keep the 125 "properly fed."

I also highly recommend the Keleo Pitts-style exhaust for this plane/engine combo! Its sound, and the absence of an external stock muffler, are very nice. Kahloq (a flying buddy) keeps his exhaust set-up similarly "clean" by using flex-pipes with pressure nipples. Both are superior choices to stock mufflers!

The 125 and the Keleo is all a tight fit under Marie's cowl, but pretty much everything, except the valve covers, is internal, and besides, a Saito 100's valve covers would stick out, also.

See my pics below of Marie with her 125 set-up. On the internal pic, the red, heat-shrink-wrapped battery just behind the oversize tank is the on-board glow battery. Note that the added weight of the 125 over the 100 resulted in the Rx battery being moved to the rear of the servo compartment so she would balance without the addition of dead weight.

Good luck!

Rip







judsterky -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/12/2008 2:55:14 AM)

Rip,

Thanks for all the helpful tips. Can you send me a direct link to that pitts muffler for the saito 125, for Miss America. Also just in case if I do have problems, can you send me a link to a good on board glow.

Thanks a bunch!

David



Rip n Bank -> RE: Hanger 9 Miss America Engine Choice (2/12/2008 3:58:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: judsterky

Rip,

Thanks for all the helpful tips. Can you send me a direct link to that pitts muffler for the saito 125, for Miss America. Also just in case if I do have problems, can you send me a link to a good on board glow.

Thanks a bunch!

David


David,

I use the C-tronics on-board glow systems http://www.c-tronicsinc.com/Products.htm#Flight%20Glow%20II. I've heard good things about McDaniels, but haven't used them.

I bought the "Plug and Glow Complete" for my giant 'Stang, because it was my first on-board glow system and it came with a charger (I hadn't yet acquired my versatile Triton2 charger yet).

The one I got for Marie, that you saw in my pic, was the Flight Glow II system. I like this package better than the "Complete" because 1) you aren't paying for a wall charger and 2) the 1900 mAh NiCd battery provided is not heat-shrink-bundled with the controller, which makes it easier to replace the supplied battery with one of higher capacity, and/or to change it to NiMH.

The Keleo Pitt-style exhaust for the 125 can be found at http://www.keleo-creations.com/Single%20Engines/Saito%20125/Sat-125-price.htm. Call Kelvin there and ask about current availability. Occasionally, he has built up a small supply of his more popular mufflers, and you might luck out and catch him with a 125 Pitts sitting around. That was the case when I bought mine, and I received it later the same week!

Otherwise, it can take six weeks, or more, to get what you want. While I don't care for such long lead times, Kelvin's a good guy and will tell you the straight story on current availability when you order.

Rip



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