RE: Is this legal?  
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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 5:32:18 AM   
Wayne22



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yeah if the wingtip was about 5' lower in that turn would have made it a really spectacular video....

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 6:04:39 AM   
bevar



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These guys were much higher that the TAP guys and look at what happened. It's obviously much safer to be lower to the ground...that way you stay out of trouble because you are bank limited.

Yes yes...lower is better...must be lower...

Beave

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3573953639342481379

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 6:29:23 AM   
David Gladwin



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Let me save you some time:

As an ex-military pilot with large aircraft display experience, I have to write in to say how strongly I feel about this. So much blood has been spilt over the years because of low level manoevres in both large and small aircraft: crashes as a result of flying that has been unbriefed and unauthorised, or when pilots have deliberately and knowingly broken the rules or display orders, or when pilots have not been competent to fly their machines outside the normal envelope. One of the worst I recall, when I lost a friend, was the Argosy at El Afraq; it was flown straight into a small water tower during an unauthorised beatup with total loss of life, and started to set people thinking about post war "cowboy" mentality that result in normally sane and competent pilots indulging in reckless flying. Then, a few years later, as the support crew to a maritime exercise in NZ, we were in the back of the Nimrod all flying down to Wellington, when, on take off from Whenupai, the pilot, very experienced and senior, without warning or briefing, racked it round in a low level turn over the flight line, a turn that the Navigator Radar calculated by trigonometry left the starboard wingtip about 5 feet off the ground. Near mutiny in the back of the a/c, and all the pilot could say afterwards was that he was "showing the flag", but could not answer how he could possibly judge how close his wing was to the gound in such a low level pulling and rolling turn, and what damage could be done to a large a/c by "rolling G". I've been in a few scrapes in my 42 years of flying, but I have rarely been so angry at the thought of being put at so much risk by a stupid stunt such as this. Low level manoevring is one of the many weapons in the military pilots' arsenal, but, as a manager, I was continually worried about what the junior pilots were up to when away from base, dedicated and very competent young people, whom in wartime we expect to roar around with "their hair on fire", but in peacetime, though training for war, are expected to obey all the rules or else!.
Now, I say all this has a direct relevance to Display Flying. Air Shows used to be primarily military affairs to show off military power, indulge in national pride and entice foreign arms buyers, amongst other things. In later years, more and more civilain a/c joined the show, mainly as a shop window for prospective buyers, but by and large, the slower, the faster, the tighter, the lower, all the better to show off the product and thrill the crowd. But the loss of life in accidents has been unacceptable, and now the rules and regulations governing participating a/c are very, very stringent. We were told at every briefing that the rules are there for the crowd's and our protection, rules that basically lay down the area in which to fly, observance of the "crowd line", and minimum manoevring height, usually 300 ft, sometimes 500 ft.
Generally, yes, display flying, even in a large a/c is very exciting, you're chosen because you can fly well, you're specially trained and thoroughly briefed, and ordered never ever to go outside the profile, or else, again. But there is a small element of risk, because you're flying outside the normal envelope, but the orders and briefings are supposed take care of this. I've mentioned in a previous post the old display adage, "The better it looks to the crowd outside, the worst it probably is inside the cockpit!" I can vouch for this, having been on one display, pushed towards the crowd line by a 25 knot crosswind and tailwind in a low level turn, and my copilot informing me about the angle of bank and low airspeed in no uncertain terms!
Specifically, therefore, having looked at all the video and read the posts, its my opinion that this pilot was totally out of order and wrong to do what he did. He may be the best pilot in the world, (I've flown with a very few who have naturally "good hands" , he may have been briefed and authorised for this show, but not, certainly not, to execute this low level turn clearly well below the display height in a manoevre that broke the law and put the crowd, his crew and himself at risk, just to show off; that's my opinion anyway.



Not just me then !!

Regards,

despairingly ,

DG.


< Message edited by David Gladwin -- 10/15/2007 6:36:22 AM >

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 7:11:35 AM   
YellowAircraft



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Hi,

Well! This was just unconscionable. It was amoral. It was depraved and wanton. These so-called pilots should be reminded that safety is FIRST and FOREMOST. No amount of risk, even if only once per year, should be taken by any air show performer or spectator. Those spectators should also be reprimanded. They should be reminded that air shows are supposed to be static displays and flights that you can see any day of the week if you live near an airport. The demonstration flights should be far away from the crowd and so high that you get a headache trying to visually acquire them. The last thing that should ever happen at these shows is an occasional [arguably] dangerously-close fly-by that makes an unforgettable impression on someone. Onlookers should never be subjected to a once-in-a-lifetime thrill like seeing a very large airliner on a close low-pass. The fact that these onlookers probably have a greater chance of winning the lotto and being struck by lightening after surviving a shark-attack (on the same day) than being killed or injured at an airshow is of no consequence here.

Just today I was at the Miramar Air Show watching the demos and feeling very grateful to be protected from ever experienceing a sonic-boom flyby of a front-line fighter first-hand. I wished I could have extended a personal thank-you to all of those people who have sued the government into imposing such protections even at a military air show.

Let's find these pilots, guys. I've got the rope if you have the stool....

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 7:24:17 AM   
Eddie P



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Maybe Dave presents insights that are little too reality based for some, given the audience of laymen looking to just have a bit of fun. From the business end of running a professional fighter wing, an airline or an airshow however, things that look cool to the audience might simply be the professional equivalent of screwing the pooch.

We all like to see cool stuff. But, ask any guy from the Blue Angels, the Snowbirds or Red Arrows if they would have done it any differently and you'd get a resounding yes. There are ways to have fun doing very cool stuff and there are ways to get killed and make a spectacle out of it while making aviation a bad thing in the minds of many. They look pretty similar to us guys sitting on the flight line but a trained eye will see vast differences / threats in one display vesus a similar looking display.

We all like to have fun in a sustainable way. Let's keep having it.

'Nuff said.

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 10:07:03 AM   
Extra230


 

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David,

I couldn't agree more with you. This post might be a bit off-topic in the RC-jet forum, but then again, maybe not, because it gives a good indication about the general safety attitude among people posting in the forum. Some of the replies indicate a poor attitude towards safety. This is very relevant to what we are doing with RC jets.

In addition to flying RC-jets (which, unfortunately, I get to do too little of), I also fly displays with full-size aircraft, and I'm appointed by the Norwegian CAA as a display pilot evaluator and safety observer. Had I been a safety observer at the display in Portugal, I would have called off the pilot's display immediately and instructed him to land (which in this case would probably have been at a different airport). The incident would have been followed up, and the pilot's Display Authorization most likely revoked. There have been way too many accidents over the years, but we are now in a phase with strong focus on display flying safety, and it's starting to pay off. What we saw here is totally unacceptable, and especially scary considering the pilot belongs to a supposedly professional flying organization.

Fly safe,

- Thore

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 10:35:16 AM   
AirPac Models



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Take look this low pass in an air show in China

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 10:49:31 AM   
David Gladwin



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Thank you Thore, you have summed up very succinctly my feelings . Thank you for your support. Lets hop you can find some more time for model jet flying despite the forthcoming northern winter.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 11:30:18 AM   
digitech


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirPac Models

Take look this low pass in an air show in China



does this come with Photoshop 2?

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 11:36:09 AM   
Eddie P



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quote:

ORIGINAL: digitech


quote:

ORIGINAL: AirPac Models

Take look this low pass in an air show in China



does this come with Photoshop 2?


It most certainy does

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 6:59:27 PM   
Koenieboy


 

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I think that guy was inspired by Ali

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=A8_fSJFQN-8

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 7:09:39 PM   
digitech


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Koenieboy

I think that guy was inspired by Ali

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=A8_fSJFQN-8

Ali cant fotoshop...
didnt see a antenna...
a wait! he is on 2,4 ghz


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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 10:01:27 PM   
erbroens



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What do you guys are complaining about TAP? they are the ultimate safety concerned airline,as they paint (T)ake (A)nother (P)lane initials on all their aircraft !



Enrique




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RE: Is this legal? - 10/15/2007 11:27:08 PM