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RE: Is this legal? - 10/16/2007 5:18:34 PM   
Synthetic


 

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/16/2007 8:38:35 PM   
cactusflyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: digitech

ok to save the portugese :-)

here is one in San fransico by the blue angels , looks very safe with all the boats...
can you image he had a flame out?

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/speed/awesome-jet-streaks-by-creates-vapor-cone-310829.php?autoplay=true

ps: look at the comments...



..............At that speed....Most likely he would pull some AOA, zoom to about 5000" and make a single-engine approach to any of the 4 or 5 suitable airports within 20 miles. His biggest issue is getting rid of the energy...........I'll just bet that just about ANY and EVERY scenario has been analyzed, reviewed and TRAINED for with the Blue Angles................It certainly wasn't a couple wide-body pilots saying, "Watch this!"

Tailwinds,

John

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/16/2007 9:04:14 PM   
Robrow



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From: Southport, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		Well certainly some interesting debate but I don't think anyone has answered my original question, perhaps if I expand the question to 'Was the display legal in that place at that time?'

I would like to think from a common sense point of view I know the answer but maybe what is perceived as an unsafe display flight in one part of the aviation world might not be elsewhere.

Certainly all the jet/large model public shows I have attended and flown in here and elesewhere in Europe have some pretty stringent safety rules, a lot of which have taken the lead from contempory fullsize display flying and agreed in consultation with the CAA.

Rob.

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/16/2007 10:06:34 PM   
PeterDays


 

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Hello

Mr. Gladwin, I agree with all your points of view on this matter. Safety should always come first at airshows, RC events or any other activities we do. Your background supports that, your country, your culture your experience, and that of all the people who make the rules in civilized and first world countries. But....

Safety on this and other matters is perceived very diferently in many parts of the world. Yes like everything else it is a relative term or subject. I have been exposed to your standards so I understand them and abide to them.

I don´t expect for you to back down on your opinion or the intensity of your commments but I understand why JMCJET is a bit pissed and he tried to show it through those funny videos. I live on an island where low flybys over the town by small charter planes where the norm until about five years ago, and people considered them entertaining(most of them anyways) just like most people in "Civilized and first world countries" don´t know where my country is or Portugal or Australia for that matter. Ignorance on all counts

Thanks to FAA pressure things have changed and "your" standards are now the norm, including yor punishments. Things are not perfect but they are definitevily improving at a very fast pace.

If this event took place in Portugal which I consider a First world country I expect this flight to be legal, and if it was not I expect the authorities to take inmediate action to punish those who "according to the laws" and "percieved standards of safety" sidetracked and fouled up. I know of many people that do not look twice at rogue pilots in action on any airfield but consider a .40 sized trainer a "threat". Let´s not even get into jets. Th vast majority of people around here even though they are awed by the presence of an RC jet, they consider it a waste of money and an unnecesary risk to life and property period. Some people think that no level of safety is enough and as you have said yourself in RC jets: There is an accident waiting to happen.

I also know people who are afraid to get on a plane that consider the fact of doing ANY airshow PLAIN STUPID. They just do not perceive that any level of safety is acceptable. I have also had three employees that when they came to the island to work, had NEVER been on an airplane and enjoyed with a certain amount of fear a flight in a 7 seater piston powered Islander. Ignorance is bless!!! .

The point I am trying to make is that people enjoy shows like that without understanding the risks and posible consequences and if they did understand the risks like a professional like yourself, I don´t think they would go anymore What makes you go is your love and passion for aviation and technology and what let you stay is your level of confidence in the securtity measurements.

Before I leave I want to say that your opinion is very valuable for me in this forum, specially in the safety department and I think people should listen to you more. But take a broader look at the world we live in(Outside of first world countries) and that emphasis on safety is just not that important but believe me many countries have a lot of people trying to get to your level but it is hard fighting a whole culture and changing it in a short period.

I leave you another video for all of you to look at and tell me if this is an acceptable level of safety in your country and think what else are people worried about that they dont worry about this. They thinkit is perfectly safe and don´t do anything to remedy the situation, but I bet someone is working to convince citizens and authorities to change that and most will ask Why?. That someone will have to fight that system in particular and will have to do it in a very intelligent way without insulting and making enemies along the way(or at least unnecesary ones)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYXU9BOw4xM


Greetings to all

Pedro

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/16/2007 11:32:12 PM   
YellowAircraft



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Status: online 		Pedro,

Great video! I've speant a bit of time in Asia, and I've seen "normal" things there (especially in the semi-metropolitan areas of under-developed countries) that would make a westerner who's accustomed to our standards of public safety drop dead of fright. Like you say, "safe" is reckoned differently in different places--although aviation is pretty standardized and growing more so in the developing nations.

You communicate your point very eloquently.

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 12:05:44 AM   
hmjets


 

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Status: offline 		Another view of the flyby---('http://www.metacafe.com/w/829673/');

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 12:12:25 AM   
The boys Back



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Status: offline 		this must be ok as it was full of passengers!!!! this is 100 times worse than the display!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEhAG2MpHMA

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 12:14:26 AM   
ianober



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Philo

I doubt if the plane in the video had any passangers in it. I don't see what the big deal is here. It's an airshow , isn't that what we do at them.
I don't see any problem with it.



I thought that was AWESOME!!!! AIRSHOW BABY!!!!!

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 12:29:58 AM   
EricJ


 

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Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRGacDGUGtE&mode=related&search=


another view of the blue angels fly by

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 12:30:55 AM   
ianober



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quote:

ORIGINAL: digitech

ok to save the portugese :-)

here is one in San fransico by the blue angels , looks very safe with all the boats...
can you image he had a flame out?

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/speed/awesome-jet-streaks-by-creates-vapor-cone-310829.php?autoplay=true

ps: look at the comments...





Oh YEAH BABY, that was the Blues at Fleet Week in SF!! Love it when they come to my home town. Recently a SF congressman tried to get the Blues BANNED from SF because he didnt like the the noise over the city. Needless to say I wont be voting for him this year . He should ask the people of Iraq what it is like to here military jets roaring over their houses on a daily basis, where he only has to worry about for 4 days a year. Some people are a piece of work!!

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 12:56:23 AM   
David Gladwin



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Status: offline 		Pedro, Interesting comments and may I point out, again, that the letter I reproduced and with which I associate myself, was written not by me but by a VERY experienced pilot indeed. with a similar RAF background to myself. The RAF, as does the RAAF, continuously seeks the highest possible standards of operational efficiency AND safety in peacetime ops. (and doesnt take unneccesary risks in wartime) It SETS the standards, not follows them, and many airforces around the world seek to emulate those standards. The same is true of BA and BY and the safety and profitability record of those two companies reflects that.

Further, may I refer you to www.Pprune.org rumours and news, A310 low flyby thread where you will read that many professional pilots were absolutely outraged and MUCH more vociferous than I about the display.

I am very conscious that not all counties have the same quality standards of flight ops or safety culture. I used to have a much higher opinion of TAP/ Air Portugal than to indulge in this sort of thing. It woud seem, from professional comment nothing to do with model aviation, they have done themselves a great diservice.

.......and Dave, The KLM 747 was a routine landing, not an airshow stunt.

It will be most interesting to read the aviation press, Flight International, etc. in the next few weeks for any comment on the display.

............so was it legal ? Ask the CAA enforcement branch ! I think I know their answer !

Do we take safety issues seriously enough in RC jets do we discuss them routinely and as an intrinsic aspect of OUR operations ? Well there has not been a single entry on the safety thread since July.

And finally, thank you for your valuable contribution.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

< Message edited by David Gladwin -- 10/17/2007 1:03:49 AM >

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 1:22:47 AM   
uncljoe



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Status: offline 		Rob
For the correct and only answer is to question the CAA or whoever is the aviation authority in the country,where the "Show" is /has taken place. IMO the Blues/Thunderbirds/Snowbirds, do some outstanding flying, and they do some hazardous maneuvers. These men & women do nothing but practice ,practice,practice, but aircraft do crash do to pilot error,mechanical problems, so no place is 100% safe." Feces does happen" .
Semper Fi
Joe



< Message edited by uncljoe -- 10/17/2007 2:08:05 AM >

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 6:14:10 AM   
tkielty


 

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Status: offline 		what a couple of idots regaurdless of legal or not!!! these guys should not be aloud to fly any more by the airline or any other govering body faa, ect. even if this was a airshow the air comming off the aircraft alone not including the engines could lift and through the planes next to the runway anywhich way as a professional pilot for 10 + yrs. and thousds of hours of flying jets i can say these guys are idots!!!!

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 7:06:03 AM   
ps2727


 

Posts: 256
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Status: offline 		Let me see, an F-18 does a low fly by and it's cool, an airliner does it and it's the end of the world. Hmmmm.

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RE: Is this legal? - 10/17/2007 9:05:35 AM