RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (Full Version)

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Bone -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/23/2008 9:30:40 AM)

10% Castrol M castor, 10% Red Klotz, 10% nitro & 70% methanol - I find it to be a good all round mix [8D]



XJet -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/23/2008 8:35:31 PM)

Too much castor for a 4-stroke.

10% castor *will* cause carboning on the exhaust valve/stem and ports.

Dropping the castor level to 2-3% will provide all the same benefits as 10% but effectively eliminate the carboning problem. Klotz will work fine at 17-18% as the balance of the lube but you could go down to as little as 10% of a higher-performing synthetic and save yourself some money, while gaining a little performance and fuel-economy to boot.



Delta3 -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/24/2008 8:33:54 AM)

I seem to have encountered the reason why we are getting our wires crossed on this topic. After a little internet research i found a saito web site. Some of you may know of it and others may not. The site is apparently not affiliated with saito itself but does have a lot of uesful info.

There seems to be two different sets of instructions issued by saito for thier engines, One lot for America and another for the rest of the world. The American instructions recommend a small percentage of castor, namely 2-5%. The instructions for the rest of the world recommend an all synthetic blend.
The website is http://saito-engines.info

If saito cant make up their mind on what fuel to use what chance have the rest of us got



misfitsailor -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/24/2008 4:11:27 PM)

I just looked at the manual to one of my (9) Saito engines. It said;
quote:

Saito recommends a fuel containing 20% oil and 10-15% nitro methane... Fuels composed entirely of castor oil are not recommended. Use of such fuels will void the warranty.


So Saito approves of using part castor and 20% oil total.



kranie -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/24/2008 4:29:11 PM)

I have had good results with Wildcat YS 20/20. It leaves alot of reside and, in my opinion, expensive but I have had no problems with my saito 100 while running it.

Saito does not recomend useing less than 20% oil in the fuel. the reason for this is that the Saito's are generally lighter in comparison to say OS 4 strokes. They get away with this by recomending a higher oil content (20% vs 18%) and flush more fuel thru the engine to keep it lubricated and cool- which explains why they are messy and less fuel effienct. I really like my Saito engines. But like any design- there are always positives and negitaives. I prefer OS 4 strokes. They are heavier, arguably have less power than the Saito, but leave less goop and I can run them on much cheaper fuel (Wilcat 2 & 4 stroke 10% nitro and 18% oil.) and I can use the same fuel for my 2 strokes & 4 strokes.

I did run 18% oil in my Saito 100 all last season in my P-51. But I made a point of running it rich and I also only flew it about 20 times. this year I plan to go back to YS 20/20 with the saito.



XJet -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/24/2008 8:17:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kranie
Saito does not recomend useing less than 20% oil in the fuel. the reason for this is that the Saito's are generally lighter in comparison to say OS 4 strokes. They get away with this by recomending a higher oil content (20% vs 18%) and flush more fuel thru the engine to keep it lubricated and cool


Why do you think that just because an engine is lighter it needs more oil?

We run our Saitos on less than 20% here and have had *no* problems at all.

People in Europe run them on 10% (or less) oil and have no problems.

The real reason most engine manufacturers quote such high recommended oil levels is because they have no control over the quality of oil being used so they err on the side of caution. At 20%, even the worst of oils will probably provide adequate protection, whereas a higher quality oil will work fine down to 10% or less.




Delta3 -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/25/2008 12:07:04 AM)

Yes it does but only in america. From what i can gather the rest of the worlds manuals say no castor but it comes down to personal choice.



kranie -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/25/2008 12:45:22 AM)

YOu are right that just because an engine is lighter- does not mean it requires more oil. That was a bad choice of words on my part.

What I meant to say was that with every design there are trade offs. The Saito becasue of how it is designed builds up more heat- there is less metal around the piston area. Some how that heat needs to be delt with. Lubrication and pushing more fuel (that contains the oil) thru it is how Saito deals with it. As a result they have a light, high performance engine.




XJet -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/25/2008 3:19:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kranie
What I meant to say was that with every design there are trade offs. The Saito becasue of how it is designed builds up more heat- there is less metal around the piston area. Some how that heat needs to be delt with. Lubrication and pushing more fuel (that contains the oil) thru it is how Saito deals with it. As a result they have a light, high performance engine.


Why do you think that less metal means higher temperatures?

Once the engine reaches operating temperature, it wouldn't matter if the piston was solid aluminum or a lightweight skirted one.

And don't forget that the Saito is AAC construction so it actually does a *much* better job of staying cool than ABC or steel-sleeved engines like the OS. The less metal between the "fire" and the ambient air, the faster the heat will conduct away and the engine will stay cool.

With most 4-strokes, the combustion heat must first be conducted by the steel liner (not such a good conductor of heat) then cross the interface between the liner and the aluminum crankcase casting, then pass through the aluminum to the air.

By comparison, the Saito has no steel liner so the heat of combustion is conducted directly to the fins where it quickly transfers to the propwash/ambient air.

One thing I did notice with my Saitos is that they seem to run *cooler* than my other 4-strokes.

The only thing that made me a *little* hesitant about using low-oil ratios with Saitos is the lack of a bronze bush in the conrod. However, this doesn't seem to have been any problem in practice.



blw -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/25/2008 11:55:13 PM)

The convoluted castor recommendations by Saito may be driven by individual markets, or in the translation process. They produce great manuals when they print them. I've been looking for a real Saito 170R3 manual for a long time, and haven't found anyone who has one yet. I think some of the castor and no castor recommendations were distributed in the U.S. too at one point. I would tend to agree with caveats on running all castor, or at least warnings about carbon.



Delta3 -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (2/26/2008 8:12:19 AM)

Can someone please explain the concept of 20/20 fuel. I have never herd of this and what are the benifits if any??????



corsaircrazy -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (6/26/2008 8:13:04 PM)

I have been running all my engines with Omega fuel.... with castor. My saito engines (7 of them) all run on Omega 30% Heli fuel... I have never had an engine failure, rusty bearings, or premature wear on any engine. I buy the Omega by the case, and have run many cases of fuel over the years. Good job Mr. Saito!!! I love these engines!

CC



Jezmo -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (6/27/2008 12:31:17 AM)

Running all of my Saito's on Gasoline with the same amount of lube as recommended for the Saito FG36 gasser. (4% after break-in)



balsaeater -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (6/27/2008 8:23:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jezmo

Running all of my Saito's on Gasoline with the same amount of lube as recommended for the Saito FG36 gasser. (4% after break-in)



When you say all your Saito can you list them

Do you use 4 stroke glow plug 90 % gasoline 6% nito and 4% oil ????

or is it something more like 45% gasoline 45% Methanol 6% nitro 4% oil????

It could be useful for me for my Saito 180 to be able to convert to gasoline 5 which is 5% Ethanol fuel



or are you meaning you use E85 gasoline formula which is also cheaper fuel than normal nitro fuels


Balasaeater




DaddySam -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (6/30/2008 1:25:37 AM)

I've used a variety of fuels in my Saito's (2 Saito .80's and a Saito 1.50), but when I tried Powermaster YS20/20 ( Delta 3 it's 20 % nitro and 20% all synthetic oil) I saw a real difference in how the engines performed. Maybe it's just the higher nitro content, but they all seem to run better. I haven't had any negative side effects and I don't miss the brown castor burning onto the muffler! Not to say I'm a die hard user of any fuel, but I do like this stuff. I just bought some Wildcat YS20/20 and I'm assuming it will be just as good as the Powermaster. If it isn't, I'll post what the difference is.
Sam



vince.b -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (6/30/2008 9:09:46 PM)

the caster debate again
caster is a cheap oil
the high end fuels do not use caster so they cost more.
caster causes hot spots to form on high rpm nitro engines. it forms a glaze like substance on the parts.
heli engines become unreliable from the use of fuels with caster.
caster gums up the parts.
synthetic oils are considered a low viscocity oil its what you want. engines turn easyer
you can always tell the engines that uses caster because after a short amount of time they are gumed up and will losen up after they are primed again.
syn oil engines take forever to get to that state.

the oil in nitro fuel also will retard (more oil slow/control the burn) the timing or (less) advance the timing.
low oil fuels advance the timing. you know when you here someone tuning there 4 stroke and you hear it go to learn and it start to make that detination sound... there engine needs more oil.
thats why the guys in the know when they do a gas conversion on the nitro 4 stroke they are able to drop the oil down to 10-12% oil, because of the ignition system fires only when it is supose to.
on my satio 220 when i over lean the mixture there is 0 predetination.. it just starts to sag from heat and lack of fuel. 30% nitro 22-23% syn oil. I have two flavores of heli fuel right now.



balsaeater -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (6/30/2008 9:50:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vince.b

the caster debate again
caster is a cheap oil
the high end fuels do not use caster so they cost more.
caster causes hot spots to form on high rpm nitro engines. it forms a glaze like substance on the parts.
heli engines become unreliable from the use of fuels with caster.
caster gums up the parts.
synthetic oils are considered a low viscocity oil its what you want. engines turn easyer
you can always tell the engines that uses caster because after a short amount of time they are gumed up and will losen up after they are primed again.
syn oil engines take forever to get to that state.

the oil in nitro fuel also will retard (more oil slow/control the burn) the timing or (less) advance the timing.
low oil fuels advance the timing. you know when you here someone tuning there 4 stroke and you hear it go to learn and it start to make that detination sound... there engine needs more oil.
thats why the guys in the know when they do a gas conversion on the nitro 4 stroke they are able to drop the oil down to 10-12% oil, because of the ignition system fires only when it is supose to.
on my satio 220 when i over lean the mixture there is 0 predetination.. it just starts to sag from heat and lack of fuel. 30% nitro 22-23% syn oil. I have two flavores of heli fuel right now.



Thanks for the info about timiing issues from lower oil
I recently got my Saito 180 and put a gallon of ~20% EDL zero nitro Zero CASTOR through the engine swinging a APC 18*6W generally on light low RPM flying except for intermittent punch out

This week figuring it was more run in I switched to ~15% oil(13% EDL 2% Klots )Zero CASTOR and ~10% Nitro

Any attempt to use full gas would after a few seconds sag the motor and mid gas the sag affect would kick in after a longer period ~20 seconds

I gave up and went home

The LHS today stated similar in that oil was to low or reduce prop size or reduce the Nitro and being on the ragged edge heat sag effect was from heat build up os soft seize affects
When the engine has done more running in like 5 USA gallons I will look to again try to reduce oil down to 15% or 12% if possible using a lighter MA 18*6 prop and use from Zero to 10% nitro depending which works best

Possibly the timing issues could mean that making the oil level below ~18% might not work due to the ignition timing not being good for the engine eeven though the engine could do with a lot less oil to stay lubricated for its moving parts the heat build up from pre detonation could still cause sag affects

balsaeater






vince.b -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/1/2008 7:27:47 AM)

well i know in the heli enignes the oil/ fuel volume also keeps them cool.
my saito 220 puts more oil out of the crank vent then the muffler though.
so i would say it more air cooled unlike the helis. one of the reason why helis smoke like they are on fire :)
I also just hit gallon 5 and its like it woke up :)



XJet -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/1/2008 10:54:31 AM)

I run my Saito 82 and 100 on fuel with just 12%-14% Coopers Plus C oil which includes some castor

It certainly doesn't sag and puts out excellent power. It'll hold a peaked needle for a full tank if I ask it to, but I usually back it off a couple of hundred RPMs from max.

Mind you, I only run 10% nitro so that makes it far less prone to detonation.



balsaeater -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/1/2008 11:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XJet

I run my Saito 82 and 100 on fuel with just 12%-14% Coopers Plus C oil which includes some castor

It certainly doesn't sag and puts out excellent power. It'll hold a peaked needle for a full tank if I ask it to, but I usually back it off a couple of hundred RPMs from max.

Mind you, I only run 10% nitro so that makes it far less prone to detonation.



Thanks for the info

I am sure I saw somewhere that a lot of the European guys after the Saito engine is run in fully are doing 12% synth Ester based oils like EDL and also doing ~5 to~10% nitro (often a lot less nitro than USA typicaly doing 20 to 30% nitro where nitro is a lot cheaper ~50 a USA gallon )

I will try again to reduce oil down to hopefully ~12% after I put 5 USA gals through the engine as oil costs are fairly steep some ~$80 a USA gallon and therefore 12% oil is a lot better than 18% for fuel cost reductions

If I can I will try to use zero nitro or low nitro like 5% or 10% as nitro costs the most some ~$120 a USA gal

Even if the 180 engine on zero nitro 12% EDl only produces the same power as the Saito 150 with 30% nitro and 20% oil it would mean my fuel costs would probably be 1/2 maybe even 1/3 the cost of the Saito 150 using such high nitro fuel and the Saito 180 is virtualy the same size and weight as the Saito 150
For me in high fuel cost Europe its a no brainer to use a bigger engine and cheaper lower power fuel to get the same power for less money

Balaseater




blw -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/1/2008 5:23:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: balsaeater

I will try again to reduce oil down to hopefully ~12% after I put 5 USA gals through the engine as oil costs are fairly steep some ~$80 a USA gallon and therefore 12% oil is a lot better than 18% for fuel cost reductions

If I can I will try to use zero nitro or low nitro like 5% or 10% as nitro costs the most some ~$120 a USA gal

Balaseater


Running any Saito for 5 gallons is an extremely excessive period for anything. This engine is ready to run reliably after about 50 oz of fuel. You can set your needles very close to optimum at this point, but the tuning will vary some until you have about a gallon run thru it. You can figure the engine is about 90% broken in after a gallon if you aren't running it too rich. Running the engine more than about 10% too rich accomplishes nothing except waste fuel and delay the normal break in process. You will also lose a lot of power.

Saitos don't smoke like other engines. A smoke trail on a Saito is a sure sign that it is probably too rich. Another thing about Saitos is that the low speed setting is the most important one.



balsaeater -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/1/2008 11:25:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blw



Running any Saito for 5 gallons is an extremely excessive period for anything. This engine is ready to run reliably after about 50 oz of fuel. You can set your needles very close to optimum at this point, but the tuning will vary some until you have about a gallon run thru it. You can figure the engine is about 90% broken in after a gallon if you aren't running it too rich. Running the engine more than about 10% too rich accomplishes nothing except waste fuel and delay the normal break in process. You will also lose a lot of power.

Saitos don't smoke like other engines. A smoke trail on a Saito is a sure sign that it is probably too rich. Another thing about Saitos is that the low speed setting is the most important one.



OH thats a new concept that the low speed setting is the most important tuning for a glow engine

The engine would not be too smoky at low to 1/3 gas so I figured leave well alone but it was often more smokey at 1/2 to full gas

Possibily with the EDL oil being too high ratio at 20% and to good and engine not running in and staying tight any attempts to reduce smoke with less fuel at high gas setting would result in engine quiting or sagging or similar

I figured as I often flew around on 1/4 gas it wasn't a big deal and would go away when the engine was more run in

From what this info indicates the motor has been run too rich for the first gallon and didn't get run in so well from excessive oil

This might confim my suspicion that the EDL at 20% was doing to good a job and over protecting the engine and that it wasn't getting run in as fast as I would expect and the engine seems to act nearly the same as when it was new

Best I can tell the engine shows all the signs of being reluctant to run correct as it is still too tight

I think I will go for a lower than 20% EDL down to 18% EDL zero nitro mix for the next gallon and try to use more high gas rather than 1/4 gas flying to speed up running in

Now the problem is to find out where this low speed adjustment is located and which way is which to tune it

I will keep you posted

Balsaeater





vince.b -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/2/2008 7:48:46 AM)

I could be wrong but it sounds like you tried to tune it for low rpm from the low end and now the top end is wacked also.
use a brand new glow plug.
then I would crank the low end open about 2 to 3 turns, open up the top end to 4 turns and start from the bigining again.
if you have already done this ignor the rest.
leave the glow stick on as you lean the top end or until it can run with out the extra heat, continue to lean the top end until you reach peek. then richen 300 to 400rpm, use a tach.
high end is complete.
1st step in leaning the bottom end
Sitting at the rpm just above where it wants to die at the curent low end mixture setting.
as you lean the low end to get the idle lower be sure to keep checking for a flat spot that will start to form just above a high idle, if the low end get to lean.
You do this by throttling from an idle to the mid rpm. start slow and listen carefully and look at the exhaust flow. if you have gone to lean on the bottom you will start to notice a sagging sound and notice the oil out of the muffler fades at the flat spot. when you see and hear this the bottom is to lean.
you are looking for a fast reliable throttle responce.
resaults may very on the trottle transition from an idle to full power based on the fuel you are useing.
engines run the best when they run on the best fuel.



balsaeater -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/2/2008 9:39:01 AM)

vince.b

Thanks will give that a go today or in the next few days depending on family interuptions which interfer with the best laid plans [:D]

Balsaeater



blw -> RE: What fuel do you use in your Saito engines (7/3/2008 5:45:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: balsaeater

The engine would not be too smoky at low to 1/3 gas so I figured leave well alone but it was often more smokey at 1/2 to full gas

Now the problem is to find out where this low speed adjustment is located and which way is which to tune it



The low speed adjustment is the screw in the middle of the throttle arm. Clockwise is leaning out.

The low speed has effect up to about 80% throttle, or maybe a bit more.



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