When does a RC plane become a drone?  
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When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/19/2007 11:24:50 AM   
longdan



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Status: offline 		This is a discussion I have had with some guys at my field for some time. What actually constitutes a drone or UAV?
Where is the line drawn? It seems to be pretty fuzzy.
Does a RC plane fitted with a digital camera make it a drone?
Is it the intent for which it is used make it a drone?
Is it a drone as soon as it's flown outside of line of sight?
If someone brought a Predator to a club field and flew it around, would it still be a drone?
Just food for thought.
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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/19/2007 7:12:20 PM   
STLPilot


 

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Status: online 		I always wondered the same thing about cars. When does a compact become a mid sized? What if your 6'5"? Is a mid sized now a compact?

Life is all but a mystery....

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/19/2007 7:48:01 PM   
rhklenke



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quote:

ORIGINAL: longdan

This is a discussion I have had with some guys at my field for some time. What actually constitutes a drone or UAV?

[snip]



Dan,

In the US, that is not a really hard question to answer. According to our FAA, an unmanned aircraft becomes a UAS (unmanned aerial system) and is subject to their regulations whenever it a) falls outside the AMA rules for weight, power, etc. OR, b) is operated for non-recreational purposes. According to them, its a simple as that...

Bob

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/19/2007 9:41:43 PM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		When it's operated at a distance greater than what the natural line of site permits. When it requires a gps navigation system to maintain course and altitude. When it requires an onboard and downlinked telemetry systems to monitor flight systems and navigation. When it is navigated by a means other than direct visual reference between the operator and the aircraft. When onboard video is used to navigate the aircraft. Plus the rules from the FAA already noted.

You don't want to get caught doing uav stuff outside the boundaries of current regulations. It goes FAR beyond the FAA when the explaining has to get done.

< Message edited by Pat Roy -- 10/25/2007 4:54:22 PM >

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/23/2007 4:50:17 PM   
P-51B



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhklenke

quote:

ORIGINAL: longdan

This is a discussion I have had with some guys at my field for some time. What actually constitutes a drone or UAV?

[snip]



Dan,

In the US, that is not a really hard question to answer. According to our FAA, an unmanned aircraft becomes a UAS (unmanned aerial system) and is subject to their regulations whenever it a) falls outside the AMA rules for weight, power, etc. OR, b) is operated for non-recreational purposes. According to them, its a simple as that...

Bob



Not quite accurate. The AMA does not make any laws and is not a governing body. I think the FAA may have numbers the AMA may have adopted though.

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/23/2007 6:24:07 PM   
rhklenke



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quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B


Not quite accurate. The AMA does not make any laws and is not a governing body. I think the FAA may have numbers the AMA may have adopted though.


Yes, I know that, but the FAA views the AMA as the "regulating body" for recreational model aircraft flying. The FAA does not have the manpower or the desire to regulate model airplanes, so as long as they feel that the AMA is doing the job, they will leave that alone. As you describe, they have essentially said that as long as a model aircraft complies with the AMA safety code, then go operate it according to AC 91-57 and as long as its non-commercial, you're not subject to FAA regulation...

Bob

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/24/2007 1:31:55 AM   
Mr67Stang



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Status: offline 		I distinktly recal reading in the AMA code that flying our models with visual aids such as onboard video or telescopes was prohibited for AMA members. Read as, If you get into trouble and cause damage because you were doing this... we are not going to cover it. While every R/C modeler has thought about doing this if even just for the "oh cool" factor I'm sure very few have actually done it. Not saying that few have put live video feed on their planes just saying few have actually used that video feed to fly the plane out of direct line of site. Now I fully understand that being a member of AMA is not compulsory to flying model planes and people are alloud to do as they choose, up to untill they hurt someone or damage property. So this being said, how in the heck is this discusion board even here?

I am in the USAF (no, i'm not a pilot) and I have seen Preditors, Shadows and the Global Hawks up close and personal and often feel I have the wrong job. Then I think to myself that the Air Force would likely frown on me taking there Preditor down and dirty in a knife edge pass over the insurjents while I fire off a Hellfire anyway. So, I'm interested in this but wonder how or if we can apply this kind of flying and stay within the perameters of the AMA. Now do not misread me. It is my desire to say within the guidlines of the AMA and I am in no way saying that anyone else must.

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/24/2007 5:04:27 AM   
troposcuba



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr67Stang

I distinktly recal reading in the AMA code that flying our models with visual aids such as onboard video or telescopes was prohibited for AMA members. Read as, If you get into trouble and cause damage because you were doing this... we are not going to cover it. While every R/C modeler has thought about doing this if even just for the "oh cool" factor I'm sure very few have actually done it. Not saying that few have put live video feed on their planes just saying few have actually used that video feed to fly the plane out of direct line of site. Now I fully understand that being a member of AMA is not compulsory to flying model planes and people are alloud to do as they choose, up to untill they hurt someone or damage property. So this being said, how in the heck is this discusion board even here?

I am in the USAF (no, i'm not a pilot) and I have seen Preditors, Shadows and the Global Hawks up close and personal and often feel I have the wrong job. Then I think to myself that the Air Force would likely frown on me taking there Preditor down and dirty in a knife edge pass over the insurjents while I fire off a Hellfire anyway. So, I'm interested in this but wonder how or if we can apply this kind of flying and stay within the perameters of the AMA. Now do not misread me. It is my desire to say within the guidlines of the AMA and I am in no way saying that anyone else must.


yer not a pilot? i though everyone in the USAF was a pilot... anyway, check out FPV (first person view) in the search function. I think that is what they call it when you fly solely on the video you are seeing from the plane rather than line of sight. some cool stuff and some pretty crazy vids there if ya look around a bit.

ps. how ya been bro?

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/24/2007 9:25:37 PM   
rhklenke



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr67Stang

[snip]

So this being said, how in the heck is this discusion board even here?

[snip]




Take a look at this:

http://www.cropcam.com/

Now granted, this company (Micropilot) is in Canada and things are a bit different up there, but there are a number of people who are using this UAV for legitimate agricultural uses. There are also a number of law enforcement units that want to fly the Cyberbug (http://www.proxygen.com/36/Editorial.asp?aff_id=36&this_cat=UAVs&type_id=1455&cat_id=1463&action=sub&list_type=name) to provide video surveillance, etc. Unfortunately, if they are doing it in this country (some are, actually), then what they are doing is currently against FAA "policy." However, the FAA realizes that flying something like this for a legitimate purpose needs to be possible in this country. At the same time, they need to protect the manned aircraft - which are the primary users of the National Airspace.

They (the FAA), are currently working on a new "flight authorization instrument," as they call it, that will allow vehicles like the CropCam and Cyberbug to be operated in the National Airspace System. I believe the desire is to have this new "instrument" in place within the next few years. I would anticipate that it will require some sort of aircraft certification and pilot qualification, but hopefully that will be much less than the Experimental Category Airworthyness Certificate and Private Pilots License and 3rd class Medical that are now required.

That, and the fact that you can (as we do), work on UAV development if you can find a restricted airspace where you can fly your UAVs, means that a forum where that work and those vehicles can be discussed is not only "allowed" but valuable.

Bob

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/25/2007 5:12:14 PM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		There's a thing called the International Trade and Arms Regulations (ITAR), which has a tremendous amount of bearing of what can be openly discussed regarding UAV technology. Then the State Department, which has a lot of oversight in ITAR related distribution of products and information, and in UAV technology, has some control authority. The Department of Defense has some oversight in the area of UAV's, and a lot of interest, along with Homeland Security.

Now if anyone thinks that the FAA is the sole governing body that has control over airspace and UAV regulations after seeing the heads up in the first paragraph, well, you're on your own. Don't read the FAR's and think those are the only regulations that apply to models, flight, airspace, and UAV's. There's a whole bunch of various regulations under different governing bodies in place that you have to look hard for to become truly enlightened.

You have to be very careful about what you openly discuss on an internet forum. Failure to do so means you may get to suffer the penalty even if you don't know the laws and regulations. Open internet discussions of things like advanced auto pilot technology, advances in gps accuracy, payload development and operation, certain telemetry methods, uploading pictures of secure areas and operations, electronic developments, and such can put one in close touch with a legal system that will show no mercy.

Then again, most people directly involved with UAV development and operations are bound by secrecy clearances and agreements through our government and non disclosure agreements with the companies involved.

There most certainly are UAV forums where the technology is discussed, but not openly unless it's a site restricted to those with special access.

< Message edited by Pat Roy -- 10/25/2007 11:18:57 PM >

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/25/2007 6:26:29 PM   
rhklenke



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Status: offline 		Man, you guys are going WAY overboard! We're not talking Predator drones here, but small, typically hobby-type for this forum, commercial or DIY automonous or semi-autonomous aircraft. There is a forum on the other popular RC site where there are tens, if not hundreds of posts on this topic every day (http://www.rcgroups.com/uav-unmanned-aerial-vehicles-238/) and I have yet to see the MIB's swooping down to arrest and torture those who post there - geeze!


Bob


ps. My link above to that "other" site may get removed, but if it does, its the scary RCU Gods, not the government...

Hopefully they'll leave it there just so that folks can see that there is a lot of interest in the subject and it would be nice to have that going on over here in RCU...

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/25/2007 11:25:47 PM   
Tired Old Man


 

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The above is attached to almost every communication in many companies for a reason.

Regardless of the size or complexity, with UAV's you're getting involved with some pretty serious stuff. Those providing the forum for the exchange of information are governed by the above just as individuals are. I don't believe much thought went into the ramifications of providing an open forum before hand, but I'm reasonably certain that there will be some pretty strong after effects if there is not someone that is fully up to speed on UAV technology reading each and every post that is written before it is published to screen sensitive or dangerous material.

This forum is not limited simply to those with need to know in the U.S., those "in the business", or those with special clearances. Simple things can be used to make extremely complex components. The M.I.B. thing was amusing but more real than you may want to believe.

< Message edited by Pat Roy -- 10/31/2007 3:23:54 AM >

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/26/2007 4:32:15 AM   
rhklenke



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Status: offline 		So Pat, if you're so sure that talking about this stuff is so much against the "rules" (yes, I've known what ITAR is for many years now) why don't you go over to the forum on RCGroups and spout your "doom and gloom" on every thread there? I think the reaction would be classic.

It will take awhile to get the regs. worked out, but you will see autonomous vehicles in the air over the US for non-military, commercial purposes. It doesn't take any elaborate or "secret" technologies to do it (we've built dozens of autonomous prop and turbine aircraft and helicopters for student projects and research). As soon as the FAA can convince themselves that they won't be running into all of the spam cans and composite wonders plying the lower skys of Class G airspace, they will allow it, hopefully within the next few years...

As far as being a technology that can be exploited for doing bad things, you can do a heck of alot more damage a lot easier with a truck load of processed cow S&#$...

Now the military stuff, that's another story, but nobody is encouraging anyone to discuss that here - anymore than anyone is encouraging the engineers at LM that are working on the Raptor to discuss the inner workings of it fly-by-wire flight control system over on the EAA or Sport Flyers discussion boards. Not that anyone who IS working on classified military stuff would be stupid enough to discuss it on an open forum.

Bob

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/26/2007 7:30:12 AM   
calvino


 

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Status: offline 		my thingie is, you have tons of people running out to the LHS picking up a plane, strapping a cammera to it and going flying, why couldn't you take the video and use it seperately from the external view, also known as, unles the plane goes out of sight, you use the "operator view" aka, you. I think the reason why the FAA doesn't allow people to fly strictly from the video provided (which is the point I am getting) is so some terrorist doesn't fly a plane from an apartment and bomb some building of big importance, is the idea I am getting

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RE: When does a RC plane become a drone? - 10/26/2007 1:09:29 PM   
rhklenke <