Composites have no place in 424  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Pylon Universe - RC Pylon Racing >> Q-500 Racing >> Composites have no place in 424
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Composites have no place in 424 - 4/3/2003 1:33:15 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by PJ_TankPilot
>>Limiting possible entries because of a myth…..

It doesn’t matter if it is a myth or not. The problem is the perception of potential new race pilots.

There is mounting evidence that eliminating composites from entry-level racing increases participation. [/QUOTE]

I think that should be qualified with "High Dollar Composites" versus "Composites".

The cost of participation is what really counts. And time building is part of the cost of participation. For those who prefer to build, they build. For those who prefer ARF, let them buy ARF's.

The Kangke F3D/30 is an all molded composite that is Q-40 sized (almost) and it retails for $157.77. At a Q-40 race in CO, a contestant was allowed to fly one with a Quickie engine on it, and I think he came in second. Kangke will have an all molded composite Q-500 out by year's end in the same price range. It certainly will not be the quality of a Bird of Prey, NEME-Q, or Vortex, but it will be at least as good as the Predator, and it will be able to handle 428 engines.

Plus there will soon be other sources of affordable all composite planes.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 26

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 12:36:11 AM   
kane


 

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/28/2002
From: Arlington Heights, IL, USA
Status: offline 		"Changing the rules"???

I am confused. You guys got to go slow with me. What rules are changing?

IF you are flying APRA or NEPRO, you cannot use composites. This rule is already being enforced.

IF you are flying AMA 424, there is no provision for eliminating composite airplanes.

Who is flying AMA 424???? (as it is written into the AMA rule book)

The rules proposal on the table for eliminating composites is an attempt by me to unify different groups around the country under one umbrella called AMA 424. IF you currently have local rules in place that eliminate the use of composites then this rule will not affect you what so ever. It will however, be cast in stone in the AMA rule book. I feel we have lost sight of what was trying to be accomplished. IF we do not want a unified set of rules. Then urge your contest board members to reject the composite proposal (which may have already happened since we have already voted, NO RESULTS YET).

When this proposal was written there was no composite airplane available for $150. IF there is one availble I have no problem writing another proposal allowing this type of aircraft provided the following criteria is met: 1. price remains under a set maximum (whatever that is). 2. It is commercially available (through distrubution to hobby shops). 3. A minimum number of kits must be produced in order for an airplane to be legal (similar to the old engine rules to eliminate 1 and 2 of a kind airplanes out there)

I am all for anything that helps promote 424. If an ARF composite is the ticket, great let's get in. However, if we leave the rules as they are, you could see VORTEX's, NEME-Q's, BIRD OF PREY's and anyothers out there. I am one who feels that higher prices will adversely affect participation.

I guess I am copping out.

Dan

_____________________________

Dan Kane

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 27

I think you are wrong - 4/4/2003 5:53:25 AM   
glowplug47


 

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/2/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I think you are wrong to limit the airframe.
If a guy wants to buy a $400.00 airframe then let him.
If the guy with the $100.00 Predator thinks the guy with the $400.00 plane is beating him because of the price of the plane, then he is just not being honest with himself.
If the the "woodie" is built straight , the owner of the high dollar plane could probably swap planes with other guy and still beat him.
Dollars do not necessarily equate to ability.

The composites afford consistency, where as the others don't.

Pay a good builder to take a $150.00 Revlution and use his skills to build a competitive airplane and it will cost more than $400.00 when its done. I promise!

Anyway, I think the whole move to outlaw composites in any of the categories is wrong.
And I'm sticking to it.
Dick

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 28

Re: I think you are wrong - 4/4/2003 6:38:52 AM   
js3



Posts: 1142
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by glowplug47
I think you are wrong to limit the airframe.
If a guy wants to buy a $400.00 airframe then let him.
If the guy with the $100.00 Predator thinks the guy with the $400.00 plane is beating him because of the price of the plane, then he is just not being honest with himself.
If the the "woodie" is built straight , the owner of the high dollar plane could probably swap planes with other guy and still beat him.
Dollars do not necessarily equate to ability.

The composites afford consistency, where as the others don't.

Pay a good builder to take a $150.00 Revlution and use his skills to build a competitive airplane and it will cost more than $400.00 when its done. I promise!

Anyway, I think the whole move to outlaw composites in any of the categories is wrong.
And I'm sticking to it.
Dick [/QUOTE]

Glowplug,

I agree with every single one of your points, especially "Dollars do not necessarily equate to ability." I just disagree with your conclusion.

It doesn't matter if the guy with the Predator is honest with himself or not. If he quits racing because he doesn't feel he can compete with the composites, he still has quit racing.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 29

I hate to say this but.... - 4/4/2003 7:02:37 AM   
glowplug47


 

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/2/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		This statement will bring lots of criticism but I will make it anyway.

That guy that you are talking about will quit for any number reasons.

#1 He does not win as often as he hoped or not at all.

#2 He does not practice enough to get better, therefore he does not win as often as he hoped or not at all.

#3 The experience of racing without winning is without satisfaction.

#4 The other guys must be doing something "illegal".

The list goes on and on.

The #1 fact about racing is it requires a certain personality, hooked to enough money (yes money, did anyone ever say this was a cheap hobby? If they did they lied) to come back month after month regardless of the outcome of the last race. If the beginner is trying to win races instead of besting his last time then he is wasting his time. The winning is just something that comes with experience and expertise. I have been doing this stuff for about 6 years and I still don't have enough of either one to be the winning guy or even come close. Probably never will. But boy do I have fun!
Your always going to see folks who dabble in this end of our hobby. MOST will go away the first year. A few will stay and try to get better. Those are the guys your flying with now.
Dick

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 30

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 8:37:36 AM   
js3



Posts: 1142
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Dick,

Again, I agree completely with you. However, what a person perceives to be the truth is valid whether it is truly factual or not and many people incorrectly perceive that in order to be competitive, you must fly composites.

What I really hate to see are the guys who quit after one season, or even one race then tell their buddies why racing is so bad (in their opinion) and discourage people from even trying it to begin with.

The list does go on and on. Here are a few more:

*You must have a composite plane to win.
*The “in crowd” gets special motors from the manufacturers.
*The new guy doesn't stand a chance.
*They are doing something with the props.
*They use cheater fuel.

All of these things are simply excuses. Some guys will see a molded composite plane and say "How can I compete with that?

This condition is like so many others in life nowadays; people do not want to take responsibility for the situations in which they find themselves. "It simply is not possible that he won because he's a better pilot than I am. Never mind the fact that he practices more than me. Of course he has to be cheating."

I really like molded composite airplanes; in fact, I own three of them. I'd even like to make my own some day. However, the time has come for us to accept the fact that people are discouraged from racing because they think they have to spend $500 on their airplane to stand a chance.

This perception is not true but it is their perception and it is valid.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 31

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 8:53:35 AM   
glowplug47


 

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/2/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Your point and their perception is valid
But- this info does not and never will change the fact that racing is not for everyone and the format should not be molded with the thought that it's for everyone. Yes, everyone that wants to give it a try should have that opportunity, it does not mean that all will find it to their liking.

I personally believe you would get more involvement if the guys in their little tents would pay more attention to those guys that are wandering around taking a look-see. Those are your perspective racers, not necessarily the general public.
Dick

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 32

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 10:50:57 AM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I think that a particular sequence of events has led many people to the wrong conclusion.

1) Some local groups outlawed composites
2) The Predator came out and a reasonable ARF at a decent price became available
3) More attendance at 424 races.

Some people have come to the conclusion that #1 is the reason things picked up. I believe it is #2 that mattered much more.

For all of the flaws in the Predator, it is the reason for the upswing, not the outlawing of composites. The guys starting out with the Predators would still be starting out with them even if they were racing against NEME-Q's, etc, in 424. Price and ARFness are the key.

Below is a portion of an email I sent to Duane Gall on August 16, 2001, before the Predator was on anybody's radar screen:

>>>

I know what part of the problem with racing is ... the lack of reasonably priced ARF's. If you look at the current state of the hobby in general, you see ARF's everywhere. The quality of today's ARF's is better than a lot of people can do on their own without a significant monetary and time investment. The racing ARF's are in the $450+ range. That's two, three, or more sport ARF's for one racing ARF. I used to think it was the engine prices, but people don't have a problem paying $200+ for four-strokes.

I personally can't build a straight balsa fuselage without a jig. If a person doesn't have a spray rig and painting area, the fiberglass planes are too much trouble.

The two ARC's I knew of, the Hobbico Viper and the Modeltech Sonic 500 are no longer in production.

Craig Farthington is no longer building X1's, so that option is out. Mike Del Ponte and National Balsa still have their 75% complete planes, but they're still a significant amount of work.

I was surprised when I saw some guys talking about using Neme-Q's for .25 FX racing, but then I thought about the fact that it's the most complete plane you can get for the price. $450 + $30 shipping. I know that's not the $800 of a pattern Focus, but that's still a lot for a plane, compared to the typical $150-$200 ARF.

I think this is partially why so many of the local spec classes pop up.

<<<

I think I was right then, and I believe that incorrect conclusions have been made.

More and more all (or mostly) molded composite planes are showing up in all disciplines of R/C. It is the way of the future because of consistency from one box to the next. Once you take a VIP Racer out of the box, you wonder why all R/C planes aren't made as nicely. No woodie is as nice as a VIP, or a Stinger, or a Sokol. Not even the best of the best woodies (or hybrids).

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 33

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 6:27:12 PM   
kane


 

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/28/2002
From: Arlington Heights, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Dick, I like John agree with all of your statements right down to the list of excuses. Except, the cost thing. If we keep the cost down to a minimum they can't use it as an excuse. Some guys can monokote and some guys can build. BUT, most can not lay-up a composite airplane. I feel this is where the preception starts to get blurry.

On a serious note: Is anyone flying composite airplanes in 424?

So, far I haven't heard of any group that allows the high $$$ composites. If you are out there please let us know. I would like to know what your participation levels are, just for comparison. The reason I ask is, if no composites are being used this proposal will not affect any group that is currently flying this class.

Dan

_____________________________

Dan Kane

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 34

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 9:00:47 PM   
regis



Posts: 74
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: La Plata, MD,
Status: offline 		Two points I would like to reiterate.

First: There have always been local variations of AMA rules. Sometimes the local restrictions get incorporated into the AMA rulebook, sometimes not. The important thing is that the AMA rules encompass and not restrict. NMPRA put together a team that a few years ago and did just that – incorporated all the local 424 requirements. [COLOR=red]That is the current AMA 424 rules. [/COLOR] I have asked the question – “What local 424 group fly planes that would not be legal under AMA rules”. Point – anyone flying local 424 can take their model to a National contest and be legal. Why should we wait three years for a change that some local groups want? We should have 424 t the Nationals now.

Second: The very people who know better are perpetuating the myth that a composite plane is required to be competitive. The new racers probably have little or no knowledge of ‘composite’ Q500 planes. He certainly does not see them at the local hobby shop and not likely to see them at the flying field. So when you tell a newbie that composites are illegal, you have reinforced the myth. Better that we should be debunking the myth by showing/teaching them how to use the composites to reinforce their affordable wood model. Point - there are better ways to recruit new racers then by confusing them with myths.

_____________________________

Regis 0o

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 35

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 9:01:59 PM   
PylonWorld



Posts: 1346
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Dan,

The racing at Hodges Hobbies in Macon Georgia does not have any restrictions on the airframe. However, they had been using the TT Pro 46, and just recently decided to switch to the TT Pro 40 so that people racing in Florida and other areas running 424 variants could join in. I don't know what the particpation level is. Bob Brogdon could tell you that, because he races with the group.

I know that CAPS runs a tweener class with engines between 424 and 428, and I don't think they put any restrictions on the airframe. I'm not sure if they run 424 or not, but I believe they do, and don't have any airframe restrictions.

One thing that I haven't heard anybody say in this debate is this: When you move into 428, you have to buy new planes if you were restricted to non-composites, especially if you are flying Predators. I know that lifetime expectancies are short for racers, but if someone is serious about racing, they only plan to race 424 as an intro to 428/422, and maybe fly 424 just for fun and practice after they move up to 428. If they can fly whatever they want in 424, they can become comfortable with the plane at the lower 424 speeds, and the move into 428 will not require all new gear (and skills).

As Dick said, this is not a hobby for people on a tight budget. When I bought my VIP Racer Speed 400 plane, I spent $160 for the airframe, $80 for the motor, speed control, and battery, $40 for 2 servos, $75 for the receiver, and $25 for an extra battery pack. That's $380, not including a battery charger, other maintenance and field equipment, or additional props and batteries. Putting a 424 Quickie in the air costs at least $350, even if you start out with a $50 kit.

_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO Chairman of the Board

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 36

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/4/2003 10:34:16 PM   
kane


 

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/28/2002
From: Arlington Heights, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Points all noted thank you for your response.

Don, I belong to CAPS and I don't know what tweener class you are refering to (At least I don't remember any). The CAPS as an organization (AS FAR AS I KNOW) has never run a 424 race. We run a standard class similar to SEMPRA.

Guys it seems that we are kind of going in circles. I feel one way and you feel another. Nothing is getting accomplished. I am listening, TRUST ME, I am hearing everything you are saying.

The 2 proposals I have submitted were in response to unify the rules for the following reasons:

1. engine proposal: Was to eliminate the chance that if 424 was run at the NATS we would see High $$ engines. EXACTLY, what happened to 428 when the NELSON was introduced! Cost went up and speed increased.

OPINION: IF this rule doesn't get fixed, you will see HIGH $$ engines being used for 424. And to everyone out there saying that if you currently are flying your local variation you won't have to buy new equipment to participate at the NATS, you are wrong if these engines show up. Once they are in how do you get them out??

2. Composite proposal: Currently, you can fly composite airplanes because AMA 424 has no restrictions. Because, most all local variations prohibit them, when a local travels to the NATS and competes against the HIGH $$ composites the believed perception is that a HIGH $$ composite is needed to be competitive.

Opinion: The preception exists whether I feel it is valid or that the people quitting are being honest doesn't matter it is out there. In this case you could see people buying new airplanes just to compete at the NATS. Again people have spent more money.

It sounds like the solution is run AMA 424 as is and let chips fall where they may. Leave the engine rule as is. Leave the airplane restrictions as is and we will end up with a class similar to SEMPRA. HEY I am all for it! Either way someone will have obsolete equipment! To have less of a chance of needing to buy new equipment keep the rules the same everywhere. This way there is no need to interpret the rules any differently. Apples are Apples and not APRA / NEPRO or 424 which are different.

Dan

_____________________________

Dan Kane

(in reply to jprge C.)
       Post #: 37

Composites have no place in 424 - 4/5/2003 12:34:07 AM