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Flying Pizza Box now on video! - 4/12/2002 8:36 AM   
Dave McDonald



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From: Eldon, MO, USA
Status: offline 		To see a video of my Pizza Box plane actually flying, go to the latest Pizza Box thread called [URL=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tm.asp?m=97526]Pizza Box Flying.[/URL]

Or click here to go directly to the [URL=http://www.eldonmo.com/pizzabox/mcpizzabox.htm]Video of the Flying Pizza Box.[/URL]]

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Bottom - 4/24/2002 11:45 PM   
mouraneto



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From: UberabaMG, BRAZIL
Status: offline 		Hi Dave

I was wondering if you could post a pic of the bottom of the Pizza box. Trying to understand better how the whole thing goes together.
You mentioned the dimentions of your flying box is 24x24. Does that include the elevos? whats their lenght?

Thanks

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/1/2002 4:38 AM   
Dazzler 2


 

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Status: offline 		Foamguy or Dave,

I think that your Pizza Box plane is AWSOME !! I keep toying with the idea of building one but did'nt have the stuff to do it. Well, I sold a plane yesterday and he did'nt want the radio gear cause he uses different brand.. I traded a little electric plane for a 46 LA... HMM sounds like pizza box time !!!!! LOL... I hate to bother you guys cause of all the others asking questions.. Do you have more detailed plans on building one of these ? I would like to have rudder and alierons. I am ready to build so as soon as I can get some GOOD, CLEAR instructions I am off to the table..... I downloaded some other plans but were not that greatly detailed on what needed done. Thanks for any information you can give and I will keep you updated........

Tim

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I love this thing! - 7/2/2002 5:34 AM   
CHM



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From: Alexandria, MN, USA
Status: offline 		I finally built a PBF. I'm using an old OS 25F, old Airtronics radio gear, and a 720mA NiMH battery. It weighs in at about 2 pounds, 8 ounces. I didn't have enough thrust to hold a hover with a MA 9x4 prop, but this engine doesn't seem too healthy. It was 90 degrees and humid last night, so that really robbed my thrust. I think my trusty old Fox 40 with a perry carb and mousse can muffler will take care of that little problem.

One interesting note: After hearing all the reports of flat spins to the death I decided to enlarge the vertical fin. Mine is 8 inches high, and 12 inches long, but it is swept up to 6 inches at the top. I can spin and stop it at will. No uncontrollable spins!

I also wrapped the leading edge with coroplast. I used about a 2 1/2" strip, cut away a flute, and used thick CA to attach it. I get only mild flexing now.

I can do awesome harriers all the way down the runway at a 45 degree angle a foot off the deck! This thing is great. The guys simply could not believe that a square piece of plastic would even fly!

Chuck

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/2/2002 7:45 AM   
Foamguy


 

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Status: offline 		Did I somehow forget to mention the " Flatspin of Death " ? That was always a problem on my coro deltas too. However, with a large fin/rudder and a little practice, you can usually pull them out. Also, Antispad, your LE solution is how I've been doing it too, same as with my flat deltas. It helps the flex a lot, also helps a lot with pitch control/sensitivity. Another antiflex trick is a triangular piece of music wire that goes from top of fin down to both sides. Poke a hole in the "wing", push the wire into the flute from the top and epoxy in place. Works for me anyway.

Foamguy

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Ready to Rock! - 7/2/2002 11:36 AM   
CHM



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Status: offline 		I have the Fox 40 ready to go. I couldn't find any MA 10-4 props anywhere today, so I hope I don't break this APC right away!

I added a tank pressure nipple at the front of my can. Think it will work okay?

Chuck

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/2/2002 8:10 PM   
NCBrit


 

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Status: offline 		I want to build one of these as soon as I have a flight pack freed up.

One thing I wondered is if anyone has tried putting an arrow shaft in the first flute, to help with the flutter problem?

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/4/2002 12:53 PM   
Dave McDonald



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From: Eldon, MO, USA
Status: offline 		antispad,
Hmmmmm.........now why would a guy who goes by "Antispad" be building a coroplast PBF?

Even with a 6"x6" vertical fin, and half of that being a movable rudder, I've never had any problems getting out of either upright or inverted spins.......as long as the spin recovery techniques are followed that I posted in the other Pizza Box thread. Going to a larger fin and rudder probably can't hurt though. And that's one of the neat things about this PBF.......everyone's is a little different.

As far as the leading edge flexing and bowing during high G maneuvering, it's never caused any problems other than it looks funny, so I've never bothered to try to reinforce it.

And since about 99% of the time my PBF is in 3D or high alpha flight, I've never bothered with a rounded leading edge. It might help at high speeds, but my PBF has never shown any pitch instability problems, even when I've gone faster than I intended to.

Your Fox 40 powered PBF looks great! And the pressure tap on the MCP is exactly where I've been locating mine.....about 1/2" from the bottom of the can. Please let us know how it flys!


Dazzler2,
The plans I originally posted way back in the other "Pizza Box Flying" thread are now outdated. The basic dimensions are still valid, but the construction method of the motor mount and spine in the latest evolution of PBFs are vastly superior. Plus the latest PBFs use nylon bolts to screw the fin/rudder to the plane, and no doublers are required in the motor mount area. Therefore if you want to build a PBF, I'd suggest looking in the later half of the other "Pizza Box Flying" thread starting with post #147 on page 8 and go from there.

I've started working on a "How to Build a PBF" web page with step by step text and photos, but don't have it completed yet.

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/4/2002 1:31 PM   
CHM



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Status: offline 		Hey Dave! This ain't no stinking SPAD. It's a PBF. It flies better! Yes, I'm taking some crap from the SPAD guys at the field. But what the heck. These things are just too much fun.

Tonight I let Bob S. fly it. Bob just soloed a short time ago. He thought it flew pretty easy. I had the rates dialed down 50%.

As far as the vertical fin enlargement, I guess I just thought I'd try it. It seems to work really well. I can do the goofiest flat spins with just rudder and elevator. It spins like a top and doesn't lose altitude. I really like spinning right down to the deck and just flying out of it with no worries. Well, I was worried when the motor quit on one spin. Not the best glide ratio. Next time I'll just dive to keep the airspeed up, then flare to land. It didn't work real good to try to harrier down.

The Fox 40 on the MCP is awesome. It blasts out of my hand at 3/4 throttle. I only open it up for short bursts, and when I do it really scoots. I even got some nice waterfalls tonight! Lots of elevator throw and a quick spooling motor make it look easy.

I also played with differential to see if I could smooth the rolls out, but it didn't work. I think the lack of fuselage side area might be the problem.

But you're right, the neatest thing about this "aircraft" is the high alpha capability. Tonight I flew out over the end of the runway about 100' high and harriered down at a fast idle to a hover. Then I touched the ground a couple times and blasted right back to 100'. I'm going to glue a wood dowel to the rear end to keep from popping a linkage off.

Overall, I think it did harrier flight better when it was a couple ounces lighter with the OS 25. It could be that my CG is just a bit farther forward now...need to check that.

I haven't been paying much attention to the newest construction techniques. I'll check out those later posts. Thanks! I think I'll build a second generation version (re-heated pizza?) and try the 25 again. The old 25F stock muffler has a very small exhaust outlet. I could put a MCP on it instead and it would be fine. I might just look for a used MAC's header for it.

To those of you that haven't tried a PBF yet, well, I've been flying since 1969. Mostly sport stuff from .020 rudder only to 40cc gas. This 24" square piece of plastic has put a semi-permanent grin on my face since the first night I flew it! I can't remember having more fun in R/C than I'm having now. To prove a point, I recently removed the Irvine 53 from my Pizzaz, and I've got a new YS63 in the box downstairs ready to replace it. But I've been flying the PBF instead of going through all that work! GO BUILD ONE!

I'll get the YS into the Pizzaz and bring it to the field for a back-up plane.

Chuck

< Message edited by CHM -- Jul 4 2002 5:50AM >

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/11/2002 9:58 AM   
1Jimbo


 

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Status: offline 		Is there an ACTUAL set of planes for this Pizza Box anywhere?

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/11/2002 10:22 AM   
Steven Sloan



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From: Eldon, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Dave, has'nt been to good for flying the last couple of days. Went out last night and got a short flight before the rain, saw Dennis. Dusty asked about putting monokote on the coroplast. I added a couple of big white stars to mine today.I used towerkote and applied it with trim solvent. It seems to have held, but a couple of flights will tell! Steve

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/11/2002 3:04 PM   
Dave McDonald



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From: Eldon, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Check out the new "Build your own PBF" thread here in the Fun Fly forum. Enough info to build one, plus some crude plans........and you don't have to wade through literally hundreds of posts to figure out how to build a PBF.

< Message edited by Dave McDonald -- Jul 11 2002 1:00PM >

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/12/2002 7:47 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hi Dave,,

I have built my 3rd box... Still trying... I am about to give up...LOL.. The last one a guy at the field tried to throw it like a football and give everything he had and threw it down towards the ground and just tore it up.... I told him he did'nt have to.. I still have yet to fly one.... Oh well... Good luck with yours... I don't think mine are meant to fly...LOL... Later.

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Flying the PBF - 7/12/2002 8:43 AM   
Ed_Moorman



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From: Shalimar, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Hey, Dazzler,

I build one just by looking at Dave's photos. Flew it with an OS .25LA, PS .40FP & TT .42GP. It should fly right out of your hand.

First, check your CG. If you are at 5 inches back or forward of that, you will need some up elevon with the sticks in neutral. Try a half inch to 3/4 inch to start. You are probably nose heavy, so set those elevons up. By the way, if you have a gear, take it off.

If you are running a .40, try an 11-4 prop at first. The 10-4 works better, giving you more throttle movement, which is a help in hovering and 3D, but the 11-4 will pull better from a stop. After launch, you'll have to come back to half throttle to keep from over speeding the plane.

I ran a 9-4 on the .25LA and hand launched it myself with one hand.

Have your launcher hold the plane by both wing tips and aim it upwards a few degrees. You advance to full power and he releases. With an 11-4 it will about pull it out of his hands. It has to fly if the elevons are up.

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 9:04 AM   
Foamguy


 

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From: Beaverton, OR,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by antispad
Hey Dave! This ain't no stinking SPAD. It's a PBF. It flies better! Yes, I'm taking some crap from the SPAD guys at the field. But what the heck. These things are just too much fun.

Tonight I let Bob S. fly it. Bob just soloed a short time ago. He thought it flew pretty easy. I had the rates dialed down 50%.

As far as the vertical fin enlargement, I guess I just thought I'd try it. It seems to work really well. I can do the goofiest flat spins with just rudder and elevator. It spins like a top and doesn't lose altitude. I really like spinning right down to the deck and just flying out of it with no worries. Well, I was worried when the motor quit on one spin. Not the best glide ratio. Next time I'll just dive to keep the airspeed up, then flare to land. It didn't work real good to try to harrier down.

The Fox 40 on the MCP is awesome. It blasts out of my hand at 3/4 throttle. I only open it up for short bursts, and when I do it really scoots. I even got some nice waterfalls tonight! Lots of elevator throw and a quick spooling motor make it look easy.

I also played with differential to see if I could smooth the rolls out, but it didn't work. I think the lack of fuselage side area might be the problem.

But you're right, the neatest thing about this "aircraft" is the high alpha capability. Tonight I flew out over the end of the runway about 100' high and harriered down at a fast idle to a hover. Then I touched the ground a couple times and blasted right back to 100'. I'm going to glue a wood dowel to the rear end to keep from popping a linkage off.

Overall, I think it did harrier flight better when it was a couple ounces lighter with the OS 25. It could be that my CG is just a bit farther forward now...need to check that.

I haven't been paying much attention to the newest construction techniques. I'll check out those later posts. Thanks! I think I'll build a second generation version (re-heated pizza?) and try the 25 again. The old 25F stock muffler has a very small exhaust outlet. I could put a MCP on it instead and it would be fine. I might just look for a used MAC's header for it.

To those of you that haven't tried a PBF yet, well, I've been flying since 1969. Mostly sport stuff from .020 rudder only to 40cc gas. This 24" square piece of plastic has put a semi-permanent grin on my face since the first night I flew it! I can't remember having more fun in R/C than I'm having now. To prove a point, I recently removed the Irvine 53 from my Pizzaz, and I've got a new YS63 in the box downstairs ready to replace it. But I've been flying the PBF instead of going through all that work! GO BUILD ONE!

I'll get the YS into the Pizzaz and bring it to the field for a back-up plane.

Chuck [/QUOTE]

Antispad,

hehe, it makes my heart swell. BTW, Spads have their place too. I've spent a weekend with Tattoo and you wont find a finer person anywhere, and his philosophy and dedication to our hobby cannot be duplicated. This one utilizes the same technology, just in a little different way. For a little different purpose. Same above Kudos appplies to Dave McD.... even though I havent met him yet.... Still, so much as it thrills me to see the interest... the originals were delta wings.... and in my opinion flew a little better. Something ya'll might wanna try.

Foamguy

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 2:48 PM   
Dave McDonald



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From: Eldon, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Dazzler2,
Mud Duck posted a video of me handlaunching my Webra 32 powered PBF. Maybe this will also answer some questions about what the PBF looks like when it's flying around with the nose way up in the air. (you may have to reassemble the link if it doesn't wrap around in this post)

http://www.jcrc.com/images/ZIMages/Eldon%202002/Eldon%20Fun%20Fly%206-9-02%2011%20Pizza%20Box%20Plane%20launch.AVI



Antispad,
I'm really glad to hear that you're having a blast with your PBF! Like yourself, I've also been into RC since 1969. I've owned and flown lots of planes from 1/2A up to 60cc size. I'm also my club's primary test pilot so I get to fly a large variety of different planes. But out of the literally thousands of planes I've flown, this simple PBF has been the most fun of all of them. I know exactly what you mean by having a permanent grin on my face since I first flew a PBF......especially my latest PBF with the TT 42GP w/MCP. The only downside to the PBF is that I'm beginning to get bored with my Stickit, which I thought would NEVER happen! I love my PBFs!!!



Hi Foamguy!
It sounds like Antispad has the same tastes in planes that we do! If you ever get a delta to hover and 3D better than a PBF, please let me know! And once you get transplanted to Nebraska, we just might have to arrange a face to face meeting of "cool guys who like weird stuff".



Hi Ed!
Does Gordon have a PBF flying yet? You would think if anybody needed a Flying Pizza Box, it would be Gordon!

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 2:58 PM   
Foamguy


 

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Status: offline 		Dave McD,

Yeah... the delta wing versions were even better.... along with easier to control in pitch for most. Like you, I can fly pretty much anything and figure out how to get it down in one piece.... in fact just did it today with a 2 meter glider that had a semi radio failure.... I may have to slide some PBF delta type pics and stats in as I did a LOT more work with that one than I did the actual PBF. Was almost the only thing I messed with for over a year. I'll have good girlfriend in Nebraska to email the pics back.... its as simple as the PBF, but asthetically cleaner and prettier..... even had a fuse.... with canopy.... but a much more stable plane. Without giving up hover, flatspin, cone, high alpha, etc. Your mileage may vary, but I doubt it. I used to run a favored Magnum .28 on mine. Nowdays... likely an LA .40... or even .46.... I am addicted to disc area. I'll see if I can get her to shoot those old pics over on Monday.

foamguy

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 5:57 PM   
gwright


 

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From: Melbourne, FL, USA
Status: offline 		If you're addicted to disk area, try an electric. Mine is spinning a 12X8 electric prop. With the same motor, geared higher, I've flown a much larger plane with a 20X11, and many props in-between. The "little" 12X8 is so I can use an inexpensive gearbox from hobbico/great pains. The gear ratio on that 'box wont allow a larger disk. The 12X8 spins in the mid 7K range, which gives in the mid 50's in pitch speed and about 4 lbs thrust. I know that's too much speed, but you never use full throttle except to accelerate vertically. Gearing up and using the 20X11 (too large for a PBF of course ) you can get 5.5 lbs of thrust at a pitch speed of about 40mph. All that with a $25 motor and $15 gearbox. This setup works really well on my fom-cor PBF. Foam cor is a bit more delicate than coroplast, but I couldn't find coroplast locally on the evening I wanted to build a PBF

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Foamguy
Dave McD,
I am addicted to disc area.

foamguy [/QUOTE]

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 10:17 PM   
DonH21


 

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From: Crete, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Gary
I found some coro-plastic, almost $38 buck a 4x8 sheet and that isn't counting the tax.

I've heard of the coro plastic selling for around $8 bucks in Kansas. I wonder what shipping cost are?

Don

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 10:24 PM   
1Jimbo


 

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Status: offline 		$38. My god ! I thought that would be cheap for 4 or 5 planes

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 10:29 PM   
DonH21


 

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From: Crete, NE, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1Jimbo
$38. My god ! I thought that would be cheap for 4 or 5 planes [/QUOTE]

Not when you compare it to $8 bucks in Kansas!!
Wouldn't you think you where getting screwed if you pay over $40 bucks(tax included) when they are selling for $8 in Kansas?
Sorry, but im not foolish with my money.

How much does it cost down your way?

Don

< Message edited by DonH21 -- Jul 13 2002 3:09PM >

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/13/2002 11:26 PM   
JayParke


 

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From: Idaho
Status: offline 		Hey DonH21. I get a 4x8 sheet locally for $11. You definately got took. LOL. Visit here.... [url]www.harborsales.com[/url] for your next order of coroplast. I beleive they charge $11 per 4x8 sheet of coroplast. But they must cut it for free shipping.

Josh

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/14/2002 1:01 AM   
Dazzler 2


 

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From: Illinois
Status: offline 		ok.... I have my third one ready for test flight...LOL... What expo are you running on yours..?? Just curious.... Maybe I will have a record for the most built and no flights............ This will not beat me, I will figure it out if it kills me... Nice flying !!!!!!!!!!!

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/14/2002 2:50 AM   
DonH21


 

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Status: offline 		Josh,

Thanks for the info!!
BTW I didn't buy it for $40!

Thanks again. Don

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Flying Pizza Box - 7/14/2002 5:37 AM   
Dave McDonald



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From: Eldon, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Dazzler 2,
I'm flying two of my PBFs with a Futaba 8UAF, and the other PBF with a Futaba 7UAF.

Here are the 8UAF and 7UAF settings I'm using for my own PBFs:

Both elevator and aileron ATV adjustments settings should be set to maximum, (140% on the 8UAF, and 120% on the 7UAF). If any throw adjustments are needed on the plane, then adjust the mechanical linkages.

High Dual Rate to 100%, Low Rate to 60%.

Adjust all Elevon mix settings to either 100% or -100%, depending on the direction of travel of the servos.

Adjust the Expo setting to -60% on High Rates, and -40% on Low Rates.



Foamguy,
I've tried lots of different props on the 40FP and 42GP PBF, but the 10x4 seems to give the best combination of maneuverability and agility. Props smaller than the 10x4 seem to waste the HP of the engine, and the agility of the PBF suffers. Props larger than the 10x4 let the PBF bog down in high drag maneuvering, and the agility starts to drop off. The biggest prop I've tried was a 12x6 on the 40FP. It flew and hovered OK, and torque rolled even easier, but the PBF would barely do tight loops, and couldn't do a Tidy Bowl Turn at all.

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