RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS!  
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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/25/2007 6:07:32 PM   
Valve floater


 

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From: Port Allen, LA, USA
Status: offline 		Guys, i have a Tiger 60 2 stroke bushing engine. I Run the daylights out of it for the last 10 yrs. If i run it to lean at high speed flybys i can hear the bushings squeal. I land it, richin it up and take off again, I won`t die! I try to kill it. I put it up for 2 to 3 month`s at a time and don`t add anything or do anything. I have 2 four stroke that i have replaced bearings in. GO BUSHINGS!! YEAH~!

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/25/2007 9:04:24 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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From: Acworth, GA, USA
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quote:

Well from what all have said here, it sounds to me like using an ARO couldn't hurt, and not using it might.


Then why is it that the most of the ones with rust were using ARO? Yeah people keep quoting Lee and Aldrich, but they were machinists. I doubt they did any scientific testing. Lee first recommended 3 in 1 then MMO then transmission fluid. Must have had problems with 3 in 1 and MMO?

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/25/2007 10:04:54 PM   
jessiej



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From: STATESBORO, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

Well from what all have said here, it sounds to me like using an ARO couldn't hurt, and not using it might.


Then why is it that the most of the ones with rust were using ARO?
/quote]



Most likely because they didn't use enough. I read a lot about people using "a few drops". Actually I think a teaspoon or so is requires to flush and coat the innards. I am skeptical that ATR could of its self cause rust, though it is easy to understand that improperly employed it may fail to prevent it.


Speaking of machinists however, the current edition of "Engine Collectors Journal" has an article that references a Machinist's periodical on penatrating oils. I will not go into the methodology, but a number of brands, including my favorite, Kano Kroil, were compared. The winner, by a substantial margin, was a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.

Despite the tests having been conducted by machinists they seemed fairly scientific to me.

One of my other hobbies is guns. at one time a pistolsmith ao quite some repute gave me a supply of his "secret" oil. It looked and smelled like a mix of Hoppes#9 solvent and ATF.

Currently I use a fair amount of bore cleaner. Largely for cost reasons I use a homemade concoction known as "Ed's Red". It is equal barts of ATF, Mineral spirits, acetone, and kerosene. I find that it is an excelent (except for the rather industrial smell) bore cleaner that also serves well as a general service parts cleaner, degreaser and short term rust preventive. Use caution with plastics etc that might be affected by the acetone.

Ed's Red is based on an earlier formila that employed sperm oil, now frowned upon by some environmentalists.

jess


< Message edited by jessiej -- 11/25/2007 10:10:12 PM >

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 1:22:07 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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From: Acworth, GA, USA
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quote:

Speaking of machinists however, the current edition of "Engine Collectors Journal" has an article that references a Machinist's periodical on penatrating oils. I will not go into the methodology, but a number of brands, including my favorite, Kano Kroil, were compared. The winner, by a substantial margin, was a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.


I didn't mean to disparage machinists, its just that typically the engineers run tests, and the machinsts make the product. My problem with typical ARO oils is that they don't mix with our fuel. However since acetone does, the above may make a very good ARO. However, it may not be good for the paint job. My experiance is no rust as long as castor fuel is used, I suspect may mistake castor varnish and congealed castor for rust.

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 1:31:49 AM   
quepasa


 

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From: Golden Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Valve Foater,,,Yes-Sir !

Jess, I can't answer that question since most of my engines ain't got no balls. The ones that do have balls don't rust either. I just figure that it couldn't hurt to have a little lubrication either way. (man,,,I could have alota fun with this! )





< Message edited by quepasa -- 11/26/2007 1:44:05 AM >

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 3:17:34 AM   
Dan Vincent


 

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Joined: 7/13/2003
From: Sanford, FL, USA
Status: offline 		One final though on ARO for me.

"IF" I was running an engine a few times a month I wouldn't worry about any ARO.

For me, being an engine collector, I often run one engine a bit and then put it away and move on to another.

Often I will find an engine that is gummed up from castor oil so I lay it on a light bulb to break it loose and then rinse it out with fuel to free it up.

Running will clear the engine and then I use Marvel Air Tool Oil to pack it away.

All of my engines are stored in an airconditioned house because the humidity in Florida can ruin things like engines if left out in the shed or garage.

If you are using your engines on a regular basis the fuel will keep them clean and lubricated.

(in reply to Jezmo)
       Post #: 81

RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 3:47:41 AM   
proptop



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Joined: 10/18/2002
From: Rome, NY, USA
Status: offline 		I don't know what it is with me then...
I have had an O.S. .46FX and an Evo .46's bearings get noisy and slightly rough feeling after forgetting to use ARO and they only sat unused for a couple-three days?
And I did run the fuel out while the engine was still hot...and it's not particularly humid in central N.Y. state.

I'll say again something I have in other threads about this topic: I think some engines are more prone to rust than others. The cheap(er ) bearings will rust in a very short period of time, like overnight or a few days. And that's using a fuel with 1/3 castor content.

I still don't get it...why do some guys say "I never have a rust problem"? Luck of the draw? Phases of the moon?

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 3:55:59 AM   
Dan Vincent


 

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From: Sanford, FL, USA
Status: offline 		proptop,

What brand of fuel are you using?

I don't think I've ever had a bearing rust up that quickly.

You need to get in touch with BOCA bearing or change fuel.

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 5:12:14 AM   
proptop



Posts: 4464
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: Rome, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Usually Powermaster 10 or 15% sport fuel w/ 18% oil, of which 1/3 is supposed to be Castor...(occasionally Omega but not often ) that's why I don't quite understand how some people have rust problems and some don't...

I think the cheaper bearings that are made in China (and that come in the FX's and Evo's ) have a lower quality steel perhaps, and that makes them more prone to corroding?

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 11:57:41 AM   
liquid_TR



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From: ISTANBUL, TURKEY
Status: offline 		You cant corrode those bearings in 3-4 days under normal contidition, even if they were of lower quality. Theres definitely something else going on.

Is that rough running or noisy bearing problems go away once you oil them up and fire the engine? If so;
That has to do with bearings not getting enough oil, or oil cannot get into the cage as easy as it should.

OR the after run oil (or something) you use penetrated the "sealed" bearing, flushed the grease out of it and now the bearing needs constant oiling.

MAYBE... its just the phase of the moon.. u never know - u know!

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 6:58:47 PM   
proptop



Posts: 4464
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: Rome, NY, USA
Status: offline 		The bearings aren't sealed or even shielded...just your plain ordinary bearings that come OEM with the engine.
The roughness is what you could call "slight" but it doesn't go away or get any smoother, that's for sure! I don't see how it could be Castor congealing / hardening in that short a period either. I pulled the backplate the first time it happened and could see evidence of some slight corrosion occuring around the lower edge of the outer race, and the balls were not bright and shiney any more...they were sort of frosted gray looking.
One of those "things that make ya go hmmm"

Anyway...since I started using liberal quantities of ARO I haven't had the problem again. (guess I'm a bit paranoid about it now)
When I get home, I add my ARO, I open the carb to WOT and turn the engine back against compression and fill the intake passage between the crank and carb opening, then rotate the prop in normal direction of rotation to let the oil flow down into the engine...I estimate that's about 1/2 to a whole teaspoon, depending on the size of the engine's passage size.
An added benefit of doing it that way, and using that much, is that as it flows out of the crank, it runs down onto the crankpin...then I flip the prop numerous times while flipping the fuselage upsidedown to get some oil (hopefully ) onto the wrist pin. Then I close the carb all the way, and stand the fuse. on it's nose for a while to let some ooze down toward the F. bearing.
Like I said...call me paranoid

< Message edited by proptop -- 11/26/2007 7:11:50 PM >

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 7:46:11 PM   
liquid_TR



Posts: 463
Joined: 4/8/2007
From: ISTANBUL, TURKEY
Status: offline 		No i wouldnt call you paraniod. If the same thing happed to me over and over again, I probably would do the same.. That or I would just run the engine on extra virgin olive oil alone..

Actually, frosted or "fogged" bearing balls can be caused by extreme stress on the bearing causing premature failure of the bearing. I think its not an isolated incident in your case since 2 engines are affected - which takes out the possibility of unbalanced crank shaft.

I wouldnt think you are running the engines on the lean side, or from your posts earlier - not using a low % oil fuel... hmm.. Its really a mystery..

I mean at the end of the day; if its not a big labor for you and makes your engines happy - use it by all means

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RE: DO NOT USE AFTER RUN OILS! - 11/26/2007 7:52:59 PM   
Ed Cregger



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From: Ringgold, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flyboy Dave

(snip)
How about using a fluid that is specifically designed to lubricate your engine ? Keep in mind
that neither ATF of air tool oil oil is meant to be burned in an internal combustion engine.
How about an oil that is specifically designed to prevent rust in your engine, and the best
part....an oil that is designed to burn as a mix....and best of all, it burns absolutely clean.

Did it ever occur to anyone to use an ARO that is compatible with the oil that is already in
most aero-model fuels ? Probably not, but is has occurred to me.

FBD.



---------------


If you are "burning" any oil in your glow engine, you are doing something wrong. Glow engine oil is not meant to burn, it is meant to be expelled from the engine.

Marvel Air Tool Oil is configured to absorb/bind up water. You can see it working by its changing color from red to a yellowish/greenish color.

I load my engines up with air tool oil, but I do not try to run them with this oil in the engine. I pull the glow plug, put a rag over the glow plug hole and blip the engine with the starter until the oil is expelled. The extra oil in the crankcase of a four-stroke has not been problematic for me. And I juice it up pretty good when I know I won't be flying for a week or more. Most of the time during flying season, I use no after run oil at all.

I see nothing wrong with your idea of using oil that is similar to the oil in the fuel, other than the expense. Air Tool Oil is much cheaper than model fuel oil.


Ed Cregger


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