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Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/23/2007 9:21 PM   
luv2glyd


 

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Any idea where I can get a 3800 watt or above brushless outrunner motor in the USA?

I've called some shops in my area and the larges ones they have is 2700 watt...

Thanks a lot!

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/23/2007 10:39 PM   
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3800 watts is quite a large motor. What are you using it on?

Plettenburg makes a few that produce a ton of power.
http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg_terminator.htm

That one there will do I believe up to 6000 watts. They're very, very expensive, though . They also do another one that I think produces close to 12kW or something.


Also, hacker has a few that look to do anywhere from 4400 watts to 10, 000 watts.

http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motors_a100.shtml

Unfortunately, most companies don't build single motors in the size range you need so you're a bit limited. The biggest i've seen (and personally carry) are motors that are 2700 watts, which in them selves are huge.
Larger than that and I think the sheer cost puts most people off so only the enthusiast manufacturers bother making the motors that big.. . It's cheaper to go gas in almost all respects. Basically almost $1000 for a motor, then you need to consider the cost of a 10 or 12 cell lipo. Ouch.



< Message edited by credence -- 11/23/2007 10:40 PM >


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/24/2007 1:39 AM   
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Thanks Daniel,

I'll get in touch with them on Monday. If anyone else knows of any other manufacturers, please let me know.

Do you have any idea where I can get some large lipo batteries for this beast?? It's actually going to be used on a paraglider tow unit, with a live human attached to it - me The unit will come aboard with me, so, I'd want it as light as possible. I'll probably use the motor in bursts of 90 seconds 4 to 6 times per day, and then recharge at night, thus, I'll need roughly 9 minutes of time per charge. So, assuming I'd go with a Hacker 4400 watt, what kind of lipo pack would I need and where would I get it? Also, are there heavier but less expensiove batterie options such as NiMH?

Thanks

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/24/2007 5:48 AM   
credence


 

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You could use nimh but you're talking a significant weight penalty. Almost double actually, which will require you to use a more powerful motor to haul the extra weight.

As for lithium packs, you won't find anything in the size and capacity rating you'll need. You will need to gang up a few smaller packs.

The 4440 watt motor hacker makes is rated to operate at 100 amps continuous draw at an input voltage of 44.4 volts (44.4x100A=4440 watts). In your case you're likely going to want a setup that is at least somewhat gentle on the batteries so that you can get a decent life cycle from them.

So, assuming you prop the motor to run at 100 amps continuous draw, you can use this number to figure out what kind of power and flight time you can get from different batteries.

Because you want at least 9 minutes of total flight time, you're going to need a battery in the 15.0 Ah range. I will provide you with the formula to figure this out below.

To figure out flight time for a given battery, you take your battery capacity, divide it by the expected amps draw, then multiply the sum by 60 to get your runtime in minutes.

E.g (mAh / A) x 60 = Runtime in minutes.

So, a 15, 000 mAh battery, drawn at 100 amps (100, 000 mA) would give you exactly 9 minutes of full power run time. Keep in mind that this is a "worst case" value assuming the motor is fully loaded for a full 9 minutes. Because the motor will unload in the air, and variance in air density, your current speed and how much power you actually provide to the motor during flight will vary, this value in practical application will actually be higher, probably closer to 10 or 12 minutes.

Because you want to avoid pulling high C rates from your lipo, in this application lipo brand is not so important since you don't need balls to the wall performance, you just need reliability. Something like a 20C lipo pulled at a 10C rate will give you good lifetime on the packs.

At any rate, if you want well known, good quality brands, any of the batteries from Thunder Power or FlightPower will suit your application, though you can save some money by looking into some cheaper brands, though what their cycle life will be like would be entirely dependent on the manufacturer of the cells.

Hope this info helps . I've never done anything quite to the scale you've done here, but the formulas for power and flight time work with any setup.

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/24/2007 6:43 PM   
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Thanks Daniel, that's very helpful.

After looking up the cost of the lipos that I will need and picking my jaw off the floor, I've revised my flight time to 6 minutes. Will just have to make every flight count to catch a thermal.

With two if these batteries in mind:
http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/TP-5000-10SXV/RC-PARTS-THUNDER-POWER-10-CELL-LITHIUM-BATTERIES.html

And needing only about 3700 watts, looks like I'd get 6 minutes:

5*2/100 amps*60 = 6 mins, right?

Do you see any problems with 37 volts vs 44?

Up until yesterday, all I knew about batteries is that the one in my car is 12Volt and a AA is 1.5 volt

Could you explain what you mean by being gentle on it? If i'm not mistaken, the link above shows a 25C battery. What do you mean by drawing 10C from it?

Also, the 4440 watt hacker motor weight is 4 lbs, while a stronger (?) 6000 watt terminator you mentioned is only 2 lbs.... Any idea why? Seems counterintuitive.

Thanks

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/24/2007 9:57 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luv2glyd

After looking up the cost of the lipos that I will need and picking my jaw off the floor, I've revised my flight time to 6 minutes. Will just have to make every flight count to catch a thermal.



Haha, that reaction sounds about right!

I don't know why there's a big difference in the weights between the too, my guess is simply different construction materials. Plettenburg is top of the line and they make some of the most efficient motors you can get. Based on their stats their power output should be comparable.

Yes, your calculations are correct, if you had 2 5000 mAh packs in parallel, you'd get about 6 minutes of flight assuming a max of 100 amps constant.
As for C rating, this relates to the batteries ability to provide current. Better quality batteries will be able to provide current at higher rates than cheaper batteries. Essentially you take the C rating and multiply it by the batteries capacity, and it gives you the maximum continuous current you can pull from the battery safely without damaging it.

So, a pack rated at 25C discharge means you could (for example) pull 44 amps from a 2200 mAh battery. The problem with this is that the higher the C rating you pull from a battery, even a good quality one, the shorter it's overall life span will be. If you were to only pull 10C from a battery rated up to 25C, then you'll likely see double the life time from said battery vs pulling it at 25C constantly.

So, in your case, a 10 aH battery pulled at 100 amps would be a 10C rate, which is good .

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/25/2007 3:53 AM   
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Cool!

What do you think about these?

http://www.maxamps.com/products.php?cat=24

I'm assuming 10 of 3.7v bateries in series would give me the same result, though looks like they have a 10C rating a piece? Is this right..?

They are half the price of the other ones, which makes me suspecious...

Is there a way to get hands on large packs that the hybrid electric car manufacturers are using?

Thanks

< Message edited by luv2glyd -- 11/26/2007 1:37 AM >


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/28/2007 8:26 AM   
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Part of the reason they're cheaper is because of the C rating. For guys into hard aerobatics, a 10C battery just won't cut it since the packs can't provide the current they need to get the performance they want.

At the same time, a 10C pack would work great for someone doing a nice slow flight with a trainer where current demands are low, so it's all relative.


That said, only the major brand names, like Thunder Power and Flight Power, will charge you out the ass for batteries. They're damn good packs, make no mistake, but they're pricey no matter how you slice it and out of reach for most people for large scale electric conversions or models.

Though maxamps packs are made in the USA, my guess is the lithium cells themselves are of chinese origin much like the majority of all lithium batteries on the market. (TP and FP are the exception and I believe use korean made cells).
That's not to say there is anything wrong with the chinese cells. Many cheaper chinese brands perform extremely well, in many cases comparable to the big brand names.
You just need to educate your self on whatever particular brand it is you're looking at and make sure it's reliable. There are tons of lithium manufacturers in china, some of them do indeed make great cells for fairly low prices, but because every other company on the planet has their own variety of OEM manufactured lithium packs, and because there's so many lithium manufacturers, you will invariably get batteries of lesser quality in higher quantity so you need to do your own filtering to find a product suitable to what you need. Another problem with cheaper brands is that there will usually be a lack of manufacturer support, so you do pay more for big names but the companies will also stand behind you should something untoward happen.


If you want my advice on battery choice, i'd suggest getting a battery capable of a confirmed 20C discharge. Not because you'll need it, but because the batteries will perform better and last significantly longer if you pull them at half their rated continuous discharge. A battery rated at 10C and pulled at that constant leaves you no wiggle room and means the pack will be stressed more heavily.

What brand you get is up to you. If this is needed in a critical application where potential battery failure could prove disastrous, then i'd highly suggest getting a pack made by a company with a solid background that will back their product up with support. If battery failure in flight won't spell your doom however, then by all means have a look around at the cheaper variety of packs on the market, many will perform extremely well and last a good deal of time if treated properly, and will cost a fraction of the bigger names. Just remember that if things go wrong in the end, you're usually on your own unless you work with a reasonable dealer willing to work with you.


Sorry for the delay in my response by the way, been a bit busy .

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/28/2007 10:49 AM   
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you might even try http://www.commonsenserc.com/ for big battery packs. They have some good prices, and they publish all the discharge info, so if you doubt that the pack can live up to what it says, just look at the graph =)

http://www.commonsenserc.com/index.php?cPath=37_43

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/29/2007 5:47 PM   
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Thanks for your feedback guys - very helpful. Looking on the web I definitely see a HUGE difference in prices for very similar packs. Pretty unbelivable.

I recently decided to go with one of these motors:

http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V450327&pid=B3675243

And run it at full power to get up to desired height faster.

Any idea where I can get my hands on batteries like the li-ion shown here?

It appears they are running 10 kw motor at 60 V and 167 amps for a total of 25 minutes of sustained flight time. I don't need nearly that much power or duration, thought the the electric paraglider developers seem to be using this same battery type and I have no clue wher to find them.

Check this out this video if you like. Now, that is en expensive electic toy!!:

http://paramoteurs.tv/spip.php?article281



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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 11/29/2007 11:16 PM   
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Those look like specialty batteries. Maybe from electric car manufacturers? Can't help you, never seen cylindrical cells that big.

If you want something cheaper you might want to consider having a look at A123 or eMoli cells. You'd need whole lot of them for what youd want to do but they'd probably work. Surely there must be electric para glider forums? Have you not asked around there?


As for the motor, you may have some trouble with that.

By design, that motor probably won't fit the type of props you're looking to use. Most large scale motors use a 6 or 8(?) bolt prop mounting system (like shown in your picture) because the amount of torque is so great. I do not know if that prop adapter would be enough with just a single nut putting pressure on such a large prop without the prop slipping under use. I can't say since i've never done anything this large, but i've seen even on giant scale models that guys use a bolted prop instead of pressure mounted one so there's probably a reason.

At any rate, that motor looks to be made by the same factory as the Tower Pro motors. They're cheap but incredibly durable motors from China. I've used one in larger e-conversions and it's seen more crashes than I care to think of, and aside from having to replace the main shaft, it's lasted almost 2 years with nearly 4 crashes. Oh, and in all this time, the motor was running way out of spec too. Running a motor rated for 14 volts max at 22 volts and getting a nice 900+ watts of power from it . For a motor that costs $40, I can't believe it's still going!


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/3/2007 5:39 AM   
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Daniel,

Thanks for al the advice. Right now there is no such thing as a comercial electrical paraglider, and a few teams around the world are working on putting one together. There is one forum which deals with this topic, not building it, but rather updates of news of the efforts on the way.

So, I've narrowed my choices down to these:

lipo, 3 in parallel 2 in series = $780:

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1866

or a whole bunch of these (14 in series and 6 in parallel) to a chieve the same result at a cost of $1540 and a considerably higher weight:

http://www.buya123systems.com/prdeki.html

The tow advantages I see of the 123 cells is that they would recharge fast. Any idea if this could be done by hooking up something to the battery of a running car??

Thanks for the note on the prop. The unit I will be building will not have a prop, but rather a drum on it. Thus, I will need to modify the shaft of the motor a bit to take considerable tork - good point.



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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/3/2007 11:10 AM   
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Most people are pulling A123 cells from Dewalt or Makita battery packs since A123 does not sell directly to the hobby market as far as I know.

A123's have 4 major benefits though over standard lithium-cobalt chemistry, first one being longer cycle life, second being high (30C+) continuous discharge rating, third, they can be speed charged at rates twice as fast as lipos, and lastly, they're made of a much safer chemical composition (lithium-nano-phosphate). Thermal runaway is almost non-existent with these cells, whereas a punctured lipo cell can be like a small hand grenade, and the higher their density, the more dangerous they become.

However, there are some notable downfalls with A123's. First off is their peak charge voltage is I believe only 3.6 volts vs 4.2 with standard lipo. This means you need more cells to make up the same voltage as a standard lipo battery pack, which obviously equates to more weight.
And, naturally, because they are a cylindrical cell form, they are heavier than a standard bagged lithium cell.

Regardless of which chemistry you choose, connecting them to a car battery is not the best method for charging. First off, a 15 aH pack will take a huge chunk of power from your car battery. Most car batteries are I think around 50 aH for a good quality one (if i'm understanding this bizzare "reserve capacity" rating right anyways) at peak charge. Since your car battery is not likely going to be at peak charge, you don't want to be draining that much juice from your car. You may not have a problem if the car is running, but it's hard to say. I've read about guys flying larger helicopters and using their car to charge batteries only to find their car won't start when they're ready to go home! Not the best situation to find your self in.

The other reason is that lithium chemistry, regardless of which one you use, requires dedicated charging hardware built specifically for it. One thing you definitely do NOT want is overcharged lithium cells, else you'll be treated to a spectacular fireworks show. I encourage you to read up very closely on the safety information of lithium batteries. It's great technology but you need to exercise a lot of caution with them as it's a fairly dangerous chemistry and NOT tolerant to negligent abuse.

In your case, you'll be working with high voltage and high capacity, which means you've probably only got 2 choices for charging. One is that you find someone to design a dedicated charger for the massive bank of cells you'll be using (likely expensive). The other is that you configure the packs so that they can be separated in chunks (i.e 22 volt packs at 5000 mAh x3 or something) at which point you can use a good commercially available lithium charger, though it'll take you longer to charge all 3 banks unless you buy multiple chargers to do them all at the same time.
I would suggest either purchasing an external car battery for charging (that you can then later on charge at home and then bring to the field), or just a small gas generator of some sort to power the charging equipment at the field.

Given the amount of cells you'll be working with, I would strongly encourage you to read all the proper handling procedures for lithium cells as I said above. Things like minimum discharge, charge, max current draw, cell balance etc. are all really important not only for the lifetime of the battery, but to also keep that large bank of packs from igniting during use (something you DON'T want happening when they're strapped to your back and you're 2000 feet up!). Specifically, because of the amount of cells, cell balance will be extremely important, so having a charger capable of balancing the cells is an absolute requirement. The batteries will be the most critical part of your setup and you need to put serious forethought into how the setup is going to work, and work safely.

Understand that you're basically trying to use commercially available hardware for an application it was never really intended for, so a large amount of the brunt work is left up to you to ensure things not only work correctly but to a safe enough degree. What you plan to do should be considered "highly experimental" considering the sourcing of the components.


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/3/2007 11:20 AM   
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well the first pack would give you a total flight time of (4.4*2*80%)/167A*60min in an hour = 2.5 min which would require a 24C constant drain =) To me that sounds like a no go....

you're gona need a 60v 87Ah pack in order to give you the run time of 25 min cont @ 167A (167*25/60/80%) = 87Ah
see this response to your identical thread over in the electric forum =)
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6697922

3.3*14 = 46.2v nominal on your second pack, to shoot for 60v, you'd need more like 18 to 19 cells in series. 6 cells in parallel would give you a capacity of 2.3*6 = 13.8Ah = 4 min @167A (13.8*80%/167A*60min) = 15C discharge rate

based on the 25 min flight time of 60v @ 167A I figure you'd need a 19s38p pack of the a123's in order to match what they've got which would give you 62.7v and 87.4Ah for the pack =) for a total of 722 cells, or 121 of those 6 cell packs at 110 bucks each = $13,310 =( man that's a pricey pack.

if you get a 10kw gen for your car/truck (like the ones they use for portable welding) and could manage to hook it all up, and figure 80% charge efficiency, it would take 87Ah*60v/80% = 6525w/hr's so then you take 10kw/h / 6.525kw/h and you end up with about 40 min charge time =)

if you go off of a reg alternator that puts out say 50A @ 13.3v, you're looking at 665w/hr charge rate, and with that it would take nearly 10 hours to charge the pack.

hopefully that number crunching helps a bit =)

edit
you could do a 3s20p pack of the first ones and that would cost you 7800 bucks to get a 66.6v 88Ah pack, but you've have a really big liability with that many lipo's sitting around, if one decided to go you'd have an inferno.

< Message edited by mrasmm -- 12/3/2007 11:25 AM >


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/3/2007 11:22 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrasmm

well the first pack would give you a total flight time of (4.4*2*80%)/167A*60min in an hour = 2.5 min which would require a 24C constant drain =) To me that sounds like a no go.... or you could do a 3s20p pack of these ones and that would cost you 7800 bucks

you're gona need a 60v 87Ah pack in order to give you the run time of 25 min cont @ 167A (167*25/60/80%) = 87Ah
see this response to your identical thread over in the electric forum =)
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6697922

3.3*14 = 46.2v nominal on your second pack, to shoot for 60v, you'd need more like 18 to 19 cells in series. 6 cells in parallel would give you a capacity of 2.3*6 = 13.8Ah = 4 min @167A (13.8*80%/167A*60min) = 15C discharge rate

based on the 25 min flight time of 60v @ 167A I figure you'd need a 19s38p pack of the a123's in order to match what they've got which would give you 62.7v and 87.4Ah for the pack =) for a total of 722 cells, or 121 of those 6 cell packs at 110 bucks each = $13,310 =( man that's a pricey pack.

if you get a 10kw gen for your car/truck (like the ones they use for portable welding) and could manage to hook it all up, and figure 80% charge efficiency, it would take 87Ah*60v/80% = 6525w/hr's so then you take 10kw/h / 6.525kw/h and you end up with about 40 min charge time =)

if you go off of a reg alternator that puts out say 50A @ 13.3v, you're looking at 665w/hr charge rate, and with that it would take nearly 10 hours to charge the pack.

hopefully that number crunching helps a bit =)


lol, oops, how did that happen

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/4/2007 3:33 AM   
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im just curious...what are you trying to fly...i read the desc on one of the links posted above.....(that motor was less than what you were looking for even)....and it says it can power a plane that is 20-35lbs. i assume this is a heli since its in a heli thread....what kind of helicopter is the size of a great dane? ....ive seen big helis but never that big


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/4/2007 3:54 AM   
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He's trying to convert a powered para glider to electric.
Basically a parachute with a small prop out the back to provide forward momentum, usually powered by a small gas engine.

Guess you could kind of look at them as sort of a poor mans personal airplane . It's something i'd love to try if I had the money for it. Oh, and the training too, I guess!

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/4/2007 3:59 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrasmm

well the first pack would give you a total flight time of (4.4*2*80%)/167A*60min in an hour = 2.5 min which would require a 24C constant drain =) To me that sounds like a no go....

you're gona need a 60v 87Ah pack in order to give you the run time of 25 min cont @ 167A (167*25/60/80%) = 87Ah
see this response to your identical thread over in the electric forum =)
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6697922

3.3*14 = 46.2v nominal on your second pack, to shoot for 60v, you'd need more like 18 to 19 cells in series. 6 cells in parallel would give you a capacity of 2.3*6 = 13.8Ah = 4 min @167A (13.8*80%/167A*60min) = 15C discharge rate

based on the 25 min flight time of 60v @ 167A I figure you'd need a 19s38p pack of the a123's in order to match what they've got which would give you 62.7v and 87.4Ah for the pack =) for a total of 722 cells, or 121 of those 6 cell packs at 110 bucks each = $13,310 =( man that's a pricey pack.

if you get a 10kw gen for your car/truck (like the ones they use for portable welding) and could manage to hook it all up, and figure 80% charge efficiency, it would take 87Ah*60v/80% = 6525w/hr's so then you take 10kw/h / 6.525kw/h and you end up with about 40 min charge time =)

if you go off of a reg alternator that puts out say 50A @ 13.3v, you're looking at 665w/hr charge rate, and with that it would take nearly 10 hours to charge the pack.

hopefully that number crunching helps a bit =)

edit
you could do a 3s20p pack of the first ones and that would cost you 7800 bucks to get a 66.6v 88Ah pack, but you've have a really big liability with that many lipo's sitting around, if one decided to go you'd have an inferno.



167A @ 60V would give him over 10 kw of power. This is way higher than what he needs. I don't even want to think about how much 88 ah of lithium cells would weigh!

That said luv2glyd, just curious how you ended up at the figure of needing 3300+ watts for your setup? Are you just basing it on average ready flying weight? Or is a 3300 watt power system simply what other people are using so you know it's the right range to be shooting for?

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/4/2007 4:14 AM   
luv2glyd


 

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Thank you all for your feedback.

Let me clarify: the motor I will be running at full power is a 6.5 kW one for a flight time of 6 minutes or so. It will be brought onboard with the pilot (me) along with a drum that winds up the 2000 to 3000 ft of high-strength line and the battery.

Take a look at this video for what the purpose of this device is:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4129234378458699595&q=paraglider+winch+tow&total=34&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

The glider pilot will be released of the line at 500 to 1000 ft above ground with the intention of catching a thermal.

Here, the tow is performed by a stationary winch that is situated on the ground, while the pilot is being towed up. My goal is to make a device that the pilot can take on board with him. Thus, the need to be very light. The reason I'm posting on this forum is because I could not find anyone knowledgeable in any other areas of the web. I figured RC helicopters probably need larger motors to run on then airplanes, thus I'm here

As for the math with the lipo using this 22.2 V, 4.4 Ah, 20C battery shown here:

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1866

Arranging 2 of these in series and then 3 units of 2 in parallel, I get 44.4 volts and 13.2 Ah

The motor is 6.5 kW, thus, 6500/44.4 = 146.4 amps (I assume that this is permissible since the draw rate would be 146.4 amps vs. 13.2amps*20C= 264)

Then flight duration is = 13.2/146.4*60 = 5.42 minutes.

Then I saw this being multiplied by 80% by mrasmm... What is the reason? Is it so that the battery does not deplete completely? Is this applicable with a draw rate being considerably lower then what is allowed?

Thanks!

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/5/2007 4:48 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luv2glyd

Then I saw this being multiplied by 80% by mrasmm... What is the reason? Is it so that the battery does not deplete completely? Is this applicable with a draw rate being considerably lower then what is allowed?

Thanks!


yeah =) you've got it. for any type of cycle life you want to do a max discharge of 80% of the capacity (about 10.56Ah in a 13.2Ah pack), and 80% max discharge of the max rated discharge rate. So when it says the pack is rated for 20C's, the max you want to do so you can get some cycles out of it is 16C, Otherwise you'll get more heat buildup than you want, which will shorten the life of the packs (ideally shoot for 100 to 110F or something with lipo's). Battery mfg's are really liberal with the ratings they put on the packs, because it makes them sell better =)

The pack will probably be able to withstand a few cycles at the max C rate, which is what the battery mfg touts usually, but it wont last very many cycles at that rate.

there are 746w in a hp, so 6500w = about 8.7hp =)

heck, have you ever seen junk yard wars? get a 10hp gas motor and fit it with the appropriate prop or you could carve your own prop if you wanted (you'll need to coat it and a few other things to stand the rpms so it doesn't fly apart and stuff), and then you wont have to worry about cycle life or a huge electric motor or any of that =P You could probably manage that setup for less than you are looking at this electric setup. I guess it would probably weigh quite a bit more though

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/5/2007 7:38 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrasmm
....which will shorten the life of the packs (ideally shoot for 100 to 110F or something with lipo's).



Cool! Thanks for the explanation. What do you mean 100 to 110F? Is this the number of cycles you'd get out of a lipo? If not, how many cycles could you expect to get before it dies? How about 123 batteries?

Thanks

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/5/2007 8:09 PM   
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sure no prob =)

oh, I ment temps, shoot for something between 100 degrees and 110 in F (140F max at the most internal part of any part of the packs), 200 to 300 cycles if you take good care of it on lipo's, no idea on a123's.

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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/5/2007 10:21 PM   
credence


 

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mrasmm is about spot on in regards to discharge and cycle life. It's better to buy high discharge packs and discharge them at half their rated capability as it'll result in longer life. Like i'd said before, a 20C pack discharged at 10C will last twice as long as a 10C packed discharged at 10C .

If your packs never get any more than warm to the touch after a flight, then 200 - 300 cycles with less than 10% capacity loss should be possible.

The actual cycle life of a lipo is about 500 cycles, but this only applies at 1C discharge rates, and it drops proportionally the higher you discharge the pack.

The absolute base voltage of a lithium cell is ~2.75 volts. The reason to discharge to 80% is that if you fully discharge the pack, you'll reach that 2.75 and in all likelihood go actually lower due to load. Most speed controllers these days come with a lithium cut off at 3.0 volts per cell, some even higher. Anyways, the point is, over-discharging a lithium cell is extremely harmful and potentially dangerous as the pack will begin to swell, and if left unchecked, will ignite. That's why 3.0/cell is used as it offers something of a "safe" zone for the cells. Note that this is 3 volts under LOAD, not 3 volts standing voltage. If you're 3 volts a cell at standing voltage then your battery has already been damaged.
Because of the sheer amount of cells you'll be working with, in your case it's even more important to ensure you don't come too close to 3.0 volts/cell, as in your setup some cells will inevitably discharge deeper than the other ones for various reasons, in this case, the ones closer to the speed controller will likely discharge slightly more than the cells towards the ends of the pack as there is less resistance in wiring. It's for this reason as well that I mentioned above that you make damn sure you've got a good charger that can balance the cells individually or you'll end up with a bunch of mis-matched cells that could prove disastrous during a charging session.

As for A123's i've read that their cycle life is supposed to be in the range of 1000 cycles, but I can't personally confirm this, and as with anything else, how you treat the cells will likely have a big impact on how long they last. If you always speed charge them at 3C rates their cycle life may be half that.


luv2glyd, i'll have to take a look over my spec sheets for you first, but I do work directly with a lithium manufacturer overseas, I may be able to help you out with some better pricing on lithium polymer packs. I also have access to lithium manganese nickel cobalt cells that may work for your application. They're safer than lipos, have the same base voltage and come in cylindrical cell form. Only catch is they're only rated to 12C discharge. If you can keep your current draw down, they might just be the ticket for you.
Also, they're quite a bit cheaper than bagged lithiums as the materials used to make them are inexpensive.
See my post here on RCCanada.
http://www.rccanada.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?t=35496&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Scroll down to the second last posts to see what the cells look like. The biggest capacity I can get these in is 3700 mAh if I recall correctly.

You can email me directly at daniel@truenorthernhobbies.com if you want to discuss it.

< Message edited by credence -- 12/5/2007 10:45 PM >


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RE: Need a 3800 Watt or larger brushless outrunner - 12/11/2007 5:12 AM   
bassking511


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: credence

He's trying to convert a powered para glider to electric.
Basically a parachute with a small prop out the back to provide forward momentum, usually powered by a small gas engine.

Guess you could kind of look at them as sort of a poor mans personal airplane . It's something i'd love to try if I had the money for it. Oh, and the training too, I guess!



ohh i see..i know what those are....the actually had them in one of the more recent James Bond movies...
i was just wondering bc this is a rc heli forum..but the science is related....

one more thing....

why are you trying to convert it to electric/.. reduce weight?
also where in Fl do u live...bc my moms cousin lives in Polk City and ive seen 2 of those things flying up there before

< Message edited by bassking511 -- 12/11/2007 5:13 AM >


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