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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> Batteries & Chargers >> A123Racing Support >> Lipo VS A123
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Lipo VS A123 - 11/30/2007 4:20:11 PM   
GiantScale


 

Posts: 90
Joined: 9/28/2002
From: Iowa City, IA,
Status: offline 		Correct me if Im wrong..

A123's are safer. Wont catch fire.
They charge twice as fast as lipo's
A123's weight more and are larger than equivalent mah lipo's

Are these A123's going to replace lipo batteries eventually? This is getting old.. Nimh, then lipo's, now A123's.. and expensive.

< Message edited by GiantScale -- 11/30/2007 4:22:23 PM >
       Post #: 1

RE: Lipo VS A123 - 11/30/2007 8:56:43 PM   
SS Pede



Posts: 320
Joined: 2/2/2006
From: Reading, MA, USA
Status: offline 		They seem like more of an alternative to LiPo than a replacement for LiPo. Ounce for ounce, LiPo packs tend to offer more higher capacity and higher voltage (better performance). It's all a matter of weighing the pros and cons and seeing which is best for you (personally I have not yet decided on one or the other ).

(in reply to GiantScale)
       Post #: 2

RE: Lipo VS A123 - 11/30/2007 11:48:21 PM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 9858
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline 		I use both all the time - frankly if the choice is even a good possibility -I use the A123

I have the latest LiPos from TP and both sizes A123 - 1100 and 2300 ma cells
The small models -of course LiPos up to 16 ounces

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/1/2007 5:36:24 PM   
SinCityJets



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Joined: 11/13/2005
From: Henderson, NV, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Pede

They seem like more of an alternative to LiPo than a replacement for LiPo. Ounce for ounce, LiPo packs tend to offer more higher capacity and higher voltage (better performance). It's all a matter of weighing the pros and cons and seeing which is best for you (personally I have not yet decided on one or the other ).


I am going to have to disagree about the voltage (performance) statement. Voltage is just an indicator of how many cells are in series. As far as performance, these batteries offer the a higher C rating than any lipo currently on the market. Not to mention you can charge them 5 times faster, their MUCH safer, and they last (lifespan) 5-10 times longer.

Bottom line, if the vehicle is big enough for an A123, use it.

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/1/2007 10:21:34 PM   
GiantScale


 

Posts: 90
Joined: 9/28/2002
From: Iowa City, IA,
Status: offline 		Thanks all. Lots of advantages for the sport modeler.

I think these A123's may have a bright future. But as of right now the record holders are sticking with the lipo's. The IR is to high unless you zapp and preheat them. From what I understand.

< Message edited by GiantScale -- 12/1/2007 10:22:24 PM >

(in reply to SinCityJets)
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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 1:01:45 AM   
SinCityJets



Posts: 795
Joined: 11/13/2005
From: Henderson, NV, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GiantScale

The IR is to high unless you zapp and preheat them. From what I understand.


GS, what are you referring to when you say the "IR is too high"?

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 1:37:25 AM   
GiantScale


 

Posts: 90
Joined: 9/28/2002
From: Iowa City, IA,
Status: offline
IR= internal resistance

Im not as educated about batteries as a few folks (record holders) I recognize in these threads. Im a follower.
http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/showthread.php?t=20597&highlight=A123

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/showthread.php?t=22537&highlight=A123

This is what one fellow had to do to get them to perform..

This cells can pushed and then the internal resistance goes down by 25% .If you want to use this cells under high amp load you have to heat them up.The procedure is ,that you have to charge them with 15 Amps till full.This is to heat ,so you have now to discarge them under 50 Amps load to reach a temperature of about 50°C .Now you can recharge the left cappacity from the heat cycle with 15 amps and Now the cell is raedy for oval or SAW contest.
Then the cell is like a IB 4200 cell.


(in reply to SinCityJets)
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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 3:05:33 AM   
SinCityJets



Posts: 795
Joined: 11/13/2005
From: Henderson, NV, USA
Status: offline 		If you plan on going for records, then that may (or may not) be good advice.

but, if you're looking for the safest, highest discharge capable, highest charge capable, most cycles of any other battery on the market, then I would have to go with the A123.

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 3:13:19 AM   
Rickochet


 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Frankfort, KY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GiantScale

Thanks all. Lots of advantages for the sport modeler.

I think these A123's may have a bright future. But as of right now the record holders are sticking with the lipo's. The IR is to high unless you zapp and preheat them. From what I understand.


Good point, and I think Sport Flyer relates to most of us here.

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 6:06:46 PM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 9858
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline 		LiPos beat em every time -- weightwise ---after that - it's all down hill
Talk to guys who activelyuse both type cells -
even my 4 cell 1100 ma B&D pack does a bang up job of aggressive flying a 22ounce all up , 430 sq in model . sur shorter flights but -fine with me -I don't fly enduros.
My LiPos? I will keep em (those at 2100 ma 3 cell or smaller ) but after that --- NFW!
The " competition" guys who DGAS about costs ? keep yer LiPos and have fun-it's a hobby--
Frankly , I can outfit a really good flying aerobatic setup for faar less and still have lotsa fun-with no concern about fires (real issue flying in dry fields ) and I recharge and am back up in a half an hour. big n little packs
Having done competitive setups for toooo many years -I may sound like I don't care about performance - guess again kemosabee. These suckers really are a step forward.

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 12/2/2007 6:10:21 PM >

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 8:15:52 PM   
SS Pede



Posts: 320
Joined: 2/2/2006
From: Reading, MA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I am going to have to disagree about the voltage (performance) statement. Voltage is just an indicator of how many cells are in series. As far as performance, these batteries offer the a higher C rating than any lipo currently on the market.

True enough, they do have a higher C rating than LiPo. But at high discharge rates doesn't the voltage of A123's drop farther than good LiPo's? Maybe this is where I was getting my original impression. Yes, the C rating is great, but I still get the sense that for "ultimate" performance (maybe not for so many people in this forum) LiPo still has the edge. True or no?

(in reply to dick Hanson)
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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 8:33:02 PM   
snellemin



Posts: 697
Joined: 3/22/2007
From: Tomball, TX, USA
Status: offline 		If the voltage drop is such a concern, you can always put 2 in parallel and have less voltage drop. In my case, I'm only concerned with massive voltage drop during dragracing.

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RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/2/2007 11:37:30 PM   
SinCityJets



Posts: 795
Joined: 11/13/2005
From: Henderson, NV, USA
Status: offline 		SS,

You have it just the opposite. A 3 cell lipo drops from 12.6 to 10.5, almost IMMEDIATELY when running them hard. They also have a constant discharge rate, so the voltage is constantly dropping from 10.5 until they reach their cut-off point (9 volts or whatever you have the cut-off set at)

A123's on the other hand, discharge almost flat. A 3 cell A123 (10.8 to start) will only drop to 10.2 for most of the duration of the discharge, until reaching cut-off. The only "negative" is that voltage is NOT a good indicator of how much energy is left in these cells. Because their discharge curve is so flat, you have to become "familiar" with these cells by flying them, and then charging them to gauge how many Mah you used. After doing this a few times, you will learn how many flights/minutes you can get out of a pack.

Of course you could also use an in-flight data recorder that records amps, volts, power used during a flight. I guess you could use them on the ground or water too.

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(in reply to snellemin)
       Post #: 13

RE: Lipo VS A123 - 12/3/2007 12:33:09 AM   
dick Hanson



Posts: 9858
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: slc, UT, USA
Status: offline 		I got rid of my Lipo 2200 packs when I compared them under load with my A123 packs - and as noted in above response the A123 beat the LiPos by a goodly amount in voltage holding stability -
I even doubled the LiPo packs and the single A123 still beat it. ( 3 cell TP (two pack)vs 4 cell A123)
I know the first response is always to look at stats then decide which is best -
On paper the LiPos look best
In actual use