RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost
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Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost (not really a guess anymore $29)

$29.99

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Total Votes : 22

(last vote on : 12/30/2007 3:50:59 PM)
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RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 4:13:28 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
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From: Manhattan, NY, USA
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quote:

Pursuing the recreational model/toy airplane flier that has nothing more than an instant-gratification activity for the day, is just like the homeowner that keeps taking out the inflated equity each time someone will give him another loan for the next toy/vacation he wants. Somewhere along that road, comes the broken bridge, and the sinkhole develops right behind him.

Is that what the NRA members thought about air rifles when they came into the market? Air powered toys? Maybe they did at first, but now there is a BOOM in their place in the world. What did the NRA do? They embraced the technology and exploited the hobby as much as they could. Grant it they didn't create a new tier for airpower rifles, but that's because they are reasonably priced in regards to membership based organizations. At least the AMA is doing SOMETHING to ATTEMPT to embrace the technology. I guess the AMA could just sit around and twiddle their thumbs instead??

Now I know you are going to dictate everything NRA, I'm sure it's coming, but what you think is a recreational model toy, might be very well be the largest show and attendees of competition flying one day in this country and I believe that. You can fly them in a indoor arena on hot or cold days. If competition RC ever makes it to the "big time" as a broad televised based competition will more then likely be indoor flyers then outdoor IMHO. Full scale airplanes already have the control on that particular market segment. The indoor competition market is anyone's for the taking and seems like plenty of sponsors are jumping on board already, they aren't stupid either.

< Message edited by STLPilot -- 12/1/2007 4:43:33 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 4:41:18 PM

Hossfly

Posts: 3936
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B
Frankly the AMA is NOT expensive, it is still very inexpensive. Heck, one parkflyer LiPO pack costs me more than the annual AMA dues.

If you don't think the AMA is expensive, why does the EAA price their program at $40? What do you think their average members spend on their toys? American Moto Assoc? NRA? AAA? PADI? Our hobby is the least expensive of any other hobby I certainly have. Compare your costs against membership organizations, not the toys involved. Members are buying a membership, not a battery. This is the reality of the situation.

Dave Matthewson also pointed out that each dip in decline in membership was represented by the same years that AMA raised their member dues. I think their last increase has priced themselves out of their sweet spot price point, added with several other contributions, age and parkflyers being a huge chunk.

As a Life member of NRA, I have not paid dues in many years, but I do contribute a non-deductible $120 per year for being a founding-member of the Second Amendment Task Force which works to protect that Amendment from so many complete idiots that so wish to do away with the current legal recognition of said amendment. NRA has the organization permitting them to work where work is needed. As an AMA Life member I contribute more than to NRA mainly to the museum. Everything is more expensive than is presented.

Now I would think if DM wishes to sit on his butt and hide under that that excuse then the reduction will continue. IMO the continual loss is not-at this time - simply due to the 2002 voted increase for 2003.
2002 ....173,420
2003 ...........168,075
2004 ...........163,709
2005........... 161006
2006........... 156765
2007........... 151394

WHEN will the uptrend start? Why is AMA now attempting ( although using the finger nails to hold on) to reverse the continuing loss ? Previous dues increase inflicted membership losses ran out within a year or so. 5 years is a bit long to use that old excuse.

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T Roosevelt "..the man who really counts in the world is the doer, NOT the mere critic, the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, NOT the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."

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Post #: 27

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 4:42:06 PM

Gremlin Castle

Posts: 1225
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Arlington, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

I'd agree with you guys, and I give it a 50/50 chance the new program will be $58. But NRA costs $35. AMotoA is $39. EAA is $40. And most orgs I belong too are in the $40 range. The AMA as it sits is $58 and even if you exclude insurance which is $10 a member cost, it's still $48. That means AMA is expensive from a membership cost basis. Also how many people do you know fly parkflyers and only parkflyers and of those people you know who do, how many of them belong to the AMA? The program is not developed for those who fly foamies and .46 sized planes and giant scale, it's only for parkflyers only. I think the AMA is going for the reality approach in trying to acquire these pilots.

The bottom line is the AMA is expensive and if you want to match relative costs try comparing an experimental aircraft versus a $40 pricetag for the EAA. Funny but I see the EC talking about the EAA more now then ever and they should.

Is the real issue the money or are you trying to figure out a price point that appeals to the Dilettantes, Dabblers and Ne'er-do-wells that feel empowered to participate in things that they can't afford?
Don't try to play the Youth card either. The kids that show up asking the cost of your flying toy are wearing way more dollars that the cost of the AMA membership and the plane. The rare youngster or other person that is truly interested in aviation will find a way to make it happen. They always have and will continue to do so.
The costs to administrate the membership of a park flyer are the same as for anyone else. Why increase the overhead to accomodate those that pass through in a year or two in the hope that a few will stick long term?
As for the EAA, having been a member starting in the mid 60s, they are just as prone to making poor decisions as the AMA.
If the past has shown us anything, it should show that taking an organization to the lowest common denominator has never garnered success. Don't waste effort on park flyers, focus it toward all types of flyers that are out there year after year and flourish without the benefit of the AMA.

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Post #: 28

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 4:51:44 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
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From: Manhattan, NY, USA
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quote:

As for the EAA, having been a member starting in the mid 60s, they are just as prone to making poor decisions as the AMA.
If the past has shown us anything, it should show that taking an organization to the lowest common denominator has never garnered success. Don't waste effort on park flyers, focus it toward all types of flyers that are out there year after year and flourish without the benefit of the AMA.

Gremlin, tell me what did the EAA work to acheive in partnership with the FAA to re-capture one of their largest target audiences that were leaving, or they couldn't capture in the first place? Did they focus their time on trying to re-promote the same old thing they've been promoting for the last 50 years or try to promote and target to a certain market segment and FOCUS on that segment harder then any other project they've worked on in their history?

Hint, it's been the shining star of Airventure for the last 3 years and it's results have certified more aircraft in the last 3 years then has been certified in the last 20 years. The chance the EAA took on that program has done wonders. Whoda thought the Piper Cub would ever come back into production as a CERTIFIED aircraft right off the assembly line? Do you realize you can now rent a 2 seat certified trainer for 40 bucks an hour again? Now if you have a buddy with a CFI and will cut you a good hourly rate, you can get your PRIVATE for less then $2500 again, just like before the EAA and FAA envisioned the program.

So yes, I think the AMA should concentrate on the lowest common denominator, it can certainly garner success.

< Message edited by STLPilot -- 12/1/2007 4:59:37 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 5:01:40 PM

Gremlin Castle

Posts: 1225
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

As for the EAA, having been a member starting in the mid 60s, they are just as prone to making poor decisions as the AMA.
If the past has shown us anything, it should show that taking an organization to the lowest common denominator has never garnered success. Don't waste effort on park flyers, focus it toward all types of flyers that are out there year after year and flourish without the benefit of the AMA.
Gremlin, tell me what did the EAA work to acheive in partnership with the FAA to re-capture one of their largest target audiences that were leaving, or they couldn't capture in the first place? Did they focus their time on trying to re-promote the same old thing they've been promoting for the last 50 years or try to promote and target to a certain market segment and FOCUS on that segment harder then any other project they've worked on in their history?

Hint, it's been the shining star of Airventure for the last 3 years and it's results have certified more aircraft in the last 3 years then has been certified in the last 20 years. The chance the EAA took on that program has done wonders. Whoda thought the Piper Cub would ever come back into production as a CERTIFIED aircraft right off the assembly line? Do you realize you can now rent a 2 seat certified trainer for 40 bucks an hour again? Now if you have a buddy with a CFI and will cut you a good hourly rate, you can get your PRIVATE for less then $2500 again, just like before the EAA and FAA envisioned the program.

So yes, I think the AMA should concentrate on the lowest common denominator, it can certainly garner success.

Good for the EAA but what about the subject of this thread, the AMA?

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Post #: 30

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 5:08:44 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle
Good for the EAA but what about the subject of this thread, the AMA?

You mentioned the LCD could ever garnish success. I gave you an example, which was used as a model for comparison to the new parkflyer program as per JoyceH and DM.

Success comes from sticking your neck out on the line. Tell me one example of success that happened by not taking a risk? It's ok to bring a comparison into the discussion. Success stories and testimonials is what inspired Burger King to try to make a better burger then McDonald's.

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Post #: 31

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 5:14:40 PM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5685
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle

The bottom line is the AMA is expensive and if you want to match relative costs try comparing an experimental aircraft versus a $40 pricetag for the EAA. Funny but I see the EC talking about the EAA more now then ever and they should.

Is the real issue the money or are you trying to figure out a price point that appeals to the Dilettantes, Dabblers and Ne'er-do-wells that feel empowered to participate in things that they can't afford?
Don't try to play the Youth card either. The kids that show up asking the cost of your flying toy are wearing way more dollars that the cost of the AMA membership and the plane. The rare youngster or other person that is truly interested in aviation will find a way to make it happen. They always have and will continue to do so.
The costs to administrate the membership of a park flyer are the same as for anyone else. Why increase the overhead to accomodate those that pass through in a year or two in the hope that a few will stick long term?
As for the EAA, having been a member starting in the mid 60s, they are just as prone to making poor decisions as the AMA.
If the past has shown us anything, it should show that taking an organization to the lowest common denominator has never garnered success. Don't waste effort on park flyers, focus it toward all types of flyers that are out there year after year and flourish without the benefit of the AMA.

Bingo!!!! You have hit the nail on the head. The model airplane hobby has never been an inexpensive one. When you weigh the cost to income ratio over the years, it still shakes out as an expensive hobby. You are absolutely correct in that lowering the value of an organization to the lowest common denominator, is absolutely a poor move. You won't make the price of playing any less expensive, you will only be lowering the admission fee, and degrading the services offered at the same time. Maybe if you can't afford the hobby, it's time to move on.

Has anyone attempted to do a demographic study to find out just how many people who buy the little park flyers actually progress to a larger and/or more powerful model? I honestly think that the majority of those millions of people who buy (or are given) the little park flyers, quickly grow tired of them, and they are off to other distractions. I too, feel that if you gave them an AMA membership for free, requiring only that they fill out the request form, and mailing it in, you would have a very insignificant number of them doing so. They are just not interested. This is (for the most part) a group who don't believe in constraints, or rules of any kind. Someone earlier mentioned the skateboarders riding their boards where they were not allowed. What is going to magically cause them to adhere to any rules concerning these park flyer models? I would like someone to give me a coherent answer to that one.

Maybe Horrace is right, and that we actually need to increase the dues. Which would you rather have, a smaller core of dedicated modellers, or a larger number of people who don't get involved, and just want someone else to do the work for them? Maybe $100.00 per year is where we should be. My club dues to the 3 model clubs to which I belong are more expensive than that per year, and I don't fly at all 3 of them every week. Something to think about.

Bill, AMA 4720

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Post #: 32

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 7:47:41 PM

P-51B

Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B
Frankly the AMA is NOT expensive, it is still very inexpensive. Heck, one parkflyer LiPO pack costs me more than the annual AMA dues.

If you don't think the AMA is expensive, why does the EAA price their program at $40? What do you think their average members spend on their toys? American Moto Assoc? NRA? AAA? PADI? Our hobby is the least expensive of any other hobby I certainly have. Compare your costs against membership organizations, not the toys involved. Members are buying a membership, not a battery. This is the reality of the situation

STL

YOU are the one comparing against the toys involved. (As evidenced by YOUR statement "What do you think their average members spend on their toys?"

The reality of the situation is that you failed to answer my question...which will answer your question. Other LARGER organizations can price their memberships LOWER because they have MORE members. PERIOD.

Kudos on your attempt to avoid the issue and skew it in a direction that you for some reason support.

The fact is one average 3 cell 2100 lipo for my park flyer runs around $70.00.

[Oh, and by the way if you do your homework you will find that an NRA member can buy a really nice rifle for the price of one of our radios, and for the price a couple of gallons of fuel can spend all day shooting it. Or can use it to put food on the table! Try defending your home with foam airplane...

]

< Message edited by P-51B -- 12/1/2007 7:48:25 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 8:39:11 PM

KidEpoxy

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From: San Antonio, TX, USA
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Have there been any estimates as to how many $58 OPEN Memership AMA guys (that are currently flying stuff that will now be considered PF Models) will drop tier to continue flying their electrics but for ~$30 less each year?
2% of 150k?
5% ??

If all I have to do is go back to 2lb electrics to save $30,
I wont have to keep up my campaign to re-make MA Optional
<I will anyway, out of principle, but I wont have to>

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Post #: 34

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 8:44:48 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B
Frankly the AMA is NOT expensive, it is still very inexpensive. Heck, one parkflyer LiPO pack costs me more than the annual AMA dues.

If you don't think the AMA is expensive, why does the EAA price their program at $40? What do you think their average members spend on their toys? American Moto Assoc? NRA? AAA? PADI? Our hobby is the least expensive of any other hobby I certainly have. Compare your costs against membership organizations, not the toys involved. Members are buying a membership, not a battery. This is the reality of the situation

STL

YOU are the one comparing against the toys involved. (As evidenced by YOUR statement "What do you think their average members spend on their toys?"

The reality of the situation is that you failed to answer my question...which will answer your question. Other LARGER organizations can price their memberships LOWER because they have MORE members. PERIOD.

Kudos on your attempt to avoid the issue and skew it in a direction that you for some reason support.

The fact is one average 3 cell 2100 lipo for my park flyer runs around $70.00.

[Oh, and by the way if you do your homework you will find that an NRA member can buy a really nice rifle for the price of one of our radios, and for the price a couple of gallons of fuel can spend all day shooting it. Or can use it to put food on the table! Try defending your home with foam airplane... ]

EAA has 160,000 members, cost $40 and many of their members spend more on just one of their toys then some of us make in their lifetime.

Well we can go back and forth on this point all day, but the AMA is in fact expensive. You live on the inside, people that have left or don't sign up live on the outside, your opinion is called bias.

Besides I'm just one of the 7% political AMA members that is for the program. I'm also part of the 93% that just does't care either way. I think it's too late to argue about the concept, because now it's a reality.

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Post #: 35

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 10:48:58 PM

Jim Thomerson

Posts: 2858
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From: Austin, TX, USA
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I still say the most important, and never answered, question is, "What does the AMA have to offer that a parkflyer wants?" So far as I can see all the AMA has that some parkfliers might want is the possibility of structured competition. I am no doubt biased, because this is the major thing the AMA does for me.

Glacier Girl, Kid Epoxy is not a chipmunk, he is a prarie dog.

Kid Epoxy, if you will dilligently read your MA, you will learn things and will be a better person for it.

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 36

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/1/2007 10:56:37 PM

P-51B

Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B
Frankly the AMA is NOT expensive, it is still very inexpensive. Heck, one parkflyer LiPO pack costs me more than the annual AMA dues.

If you don't think the AMA is expensive, why does the EAA price their program at $40? What do you think their average members spend on their toys? American Moto Assoc? NRA? AAA? PADI? Our hobby is the least expensive of any other hobby I certainly have. Compare your costs against membership organizations, not the toys involved. Members are buying a membership, not a battery. This is the reality of the situation

STL

YOU are the one comparing against the toys involved. (As evidenced by YOUR statement "What do you think their average members spend on their toys?"

The reality of the situation is that you failed to answer my question...which will answer your question. Other LARGER organizations can price their memberships LOWER because they have MORE members. PERIOD.

Kudos on your attempt to avoid the issue and skew it in a direction that you for some reason support.

The fact is one average 3 cell 2100 lipo for my park flyer runs around $70.00.

[Oh, and by the way if you do your homework you will find that an NRA member can buy a really nice rifle for the price of one of our radios, and for the price a couple of gallons of fuel can spend all day shooting it. Or can use it to put food on the table! Try defending your home with foam airplane... ]

EAA has 160,000 members, cost $40 and many of their members spend more on just one of their toys then some of us make in their lifetime.

Well we can go back and forth on this point all day, but the AMA is in fact expensive. You live on the inside, people that have left or don't sign up live on the outside, your opinion is called bias.

Besides I'm just one of the 7% political AMA members that is for the program. I'm also part of the 93% that just does't care either way. I think it's too late to argue about the concept, because now it's a reality.

There you go yet again stl. What about the other organizations you mentioned like the NRA...estimated over 4million members back in 2000? (couldn't find a more up to date figure in my googling)

No, AMA is NOT "in fact expensive" it is IN FACT downright INEXPENSIVE.

I also get a kick out of an opinion other than yours being called bias....

And I will continue to fight against watering down the AMA with "programs" such as this!

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