RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost
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Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost (not really a guess anymore $29)

$29.99

100% (22)

Total Votes : 22

(last vote on : 12/30/2007 3:50:59 PM)
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RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 7:44:33 PM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline

Stick-
how is a 31" R&E plane mainstream, but a 31" RE&T plane not?

Seems you dont exclude the AMA FF guys from 'mainstream'
nor do you exclude the AMA Rubber guys,
nor the AMA RC Gliders,
nor the AMA 1/2A cox R&E / A&E fliers,
nor the 3lb 250w electric 4channel (some 5 or more),
....
but you see the difference in a 31" R&E RC plane (good) and the other 31" RE&T RC plane (bad)

Stick, if you want to harsh folks for not being 'mainstream',
have you looked at the FF, Rubber, & 1/8A guys in the AMA?
You want to complain about stuff not being mainstream enough to be AMA, you will make a lot of enemies in the AMA that are just that.

And good job pointing out the thing I described as "Sub $100 Toys" is a toy...
good one, you really got me there.
But you still fail to realize that there is no difference between a 'Sub $100 Toy', a 'Over $300 Toy', or a '$2500 Toy' airplane, judging soley by cost.... you are hard pressed to find a AMA Rubber Toy Airplane for over $100 yet you like those mainstream toy planes.

1960 1 week minimum wage?
ok, 2007 1 week minimum wage is what, $175 takehome?
1/2A plane kit with engine.. $36
RX & 2 micro servos ... $40
Closthepin ignitor.... no, I'm not going to get into the few cents here & there to use stuff around the house to fly. That is what an ARF'er does: They write a check for all the stuff the salesman says they need rather than just using stuff around the house.... such as paying for a Official RC Chicken Stick instead of using an old toothbrush handle.

or, for the mainstream
$50 engine (.40)
$79 ARF <just went up from $69 not long ago>
$36 4servos
$40 RX
add some junk in there and we are still in the zone of just over 1 weeks wages like 1960, but this time it is 4cannel RC

Bottom line, Flying has become 1/2 to 1/3 weeks wage for 1/2A modelers,
stayed just over 1 week minimum wage but now RC .40 ARF,
or 1/2 weeks wage for $100 RTF Toy fliers

Gotta remember, they make bass boats for $90k, and they make them for $15k, and you can go out in a 11' 10horse dingy... dont tell me fishing is too expensive... minimum wage guys get dingys, tradesmen get $20k boats, and execs have $90k boats they dont use next to the jetskis they dont use, the motorcycles they dont ride, & the stairmaster they dont climb.

Minimum wage guys dont go for the 30%Cap model, nor the twin turbine F15 model, nor the $2000 scalemaster 1.20 plane... poor folks can fly cheap planes.... unless the guys promoting all aspects of model aviation say they cant.

Flying is cheap,
minimum wage folks fly,
despite the crusaders telling us we cant.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to Stickbuilder)

Post #: 51

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 8:14:59 PM

friz

Posts: 76
Joined: 6/3/2005
From: Great Bend, KS, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Stick-
how is a 31" R&E plane mainstream, but a 31" RE&T plane not?

Seems you dont exclude the AMA FF guys from 'mainstream'
nor do you exclude the AMA Rubber guys,
nor the AMA RC Gliders,
nor the AMA 1/2A cox R&E / A&E fliers,
nor the 3lb 250w electric 4channel (some 5 or more),
....
but you see the difference in a 31" R&E RC plane (good) and the other 31" RE&T RC plane (bad)

Stick, if you want to harsh folks for not being 'mainstream',
have you looked at the FF, Rubber, & 1/8A guys in the AMA?
You want to complain about stuff not being mainstream enough to be AMA, you will make a lot of enemies in the AMA that are just that.

And good job pointing out the thing I described as "Sub $100 Toys" is a toy...
good one, you really got me there.
But you still fail to realize that there is no difference between a 'Sub $100 Toy', a 'Over $300 Toy', or a '$2500 Toy' airplane, judging soley by cost.... you are hard pressed to find a AMA Rubber Toy Airplane for over $100 yet you like those mainstream toy planes.

1960 1 week minimum wage?
ok, 2007 1 week minimum wage is what, $175 takehome?
1/2A plane kit with engine.. $36
RX & 2 micro servos ... $40
Closthepin ignitor.... no, I'm not going to get into the few cents here & there to use stuff around the house to fly. That is what an ARF'er does: They write a check for all the stuff the salesman says they need rather than just using stuff around the house.... such as paying for a Official RC Chicken Stick instead of using an old toothbrush handle.

or, for the mainstream
$50 engine (.40)
$79 ARF <just went up from $69 not long ago>
$36 4servos
$40 RX
add some junk in there and we are still in the zone of just over 1 weeks wages like 1960, but this time it is 4cannel RC

Bottom line, Flying has become 1/2 to 1/3 weeks wage for 1/2A modelers,
stayed just over 1 week minimum wage but now RC .40 ARF,
or 1/2 weeks wage for $100 RTF Toy fliers

Gotta remember, they make bass boats for $90k, and they make them for $15k, and you can go out in a 11' 10horse dingy... dont tell me fishing is too expensive... minimum wage guys get dingys, tradesmen get $20k boats, and execs have $90k boats they dont use next to the jetskis they dont use, the motorcycles they dont ride, & the stairmaster they dont climb.

Minimum wage guys dont go for the 30%Cap model, nor the twin turbine F15 model, nor the $2000 scalemaster 1.20 plane... poor folks can fly cheap planes.... unless the guys promoting all aspects of model aviation say they cant.

Flying is cheap,
minimum wage folks fly,
despite the crusaders telling us we cant.

Good point Kid. Myself I would rather have a dingy in the water then a bass boat in the garage, and fishing from either is still fishing, and flying an airhog is still flying. This is where the AMA is missing the boat. I think a program to help people be successful with their wally world airplanes would do a lot for the hobby as a whole. The group that I fly with owes our existance to the WalMart Skysurfer. Flying these in the factory that we all work at got things going about 5 years ago. This has snowballed into about 6 regular RC pilots that I can think of. BTW, We still battle indoors with the Aeroace as the weapon of choice. Great fun.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 52

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 8:58:13 PM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline

Dont worry Friz
by next month lots of the folks that hate the discount PF Tier will be changing their tune,
or, at least the ones that swore 100% blind unyielding fidelity & support of the recently elected officers will.

Some of us didnt take that oath, but said we will look at each thing on its own merit,
and those of us that didnt pledge blindness dont like what we see,
different insurances, different dues, different fields, (different magazine??).... why are we calling these different guys AMA members?

But if that is what Tony & Dave voted to make happen,
(as opposed to Abstain to neither promote nor impede the Teir)
then some guys will be changing their tune right soon, lest the be considered Bashers & Haters
of the AMA and its new PF FLY CHEAP Tier

Lets make it $19 & no Mag!
So I can save a bundle by switching to Geico... er, I mean by switching to AMA-Lite
just like the beer: Less Costing, Flys Great

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to friz)

Post #: 53

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 10:08:46 PM

combatpigg

Posts: 10141
Joined: 11/22/2003
From: arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline

KE, if the definition of Park Flyer can be reduced to a plane that has little or no potential to cause serious injury, then that would be key to justifying a reduced membersip rate. A lot of the Park Flyer planes that I see flown should not be included into a low risk, discount category. Problem is the folks who would buy into the discount membership and insurance will file claims and the burden to investigate the validity of each claim to make sure the flyer wasn't using an oversized motor and higher voltage pack falls upon whose shoulders?
The other end of the hobby spectrum might seem to have its' inequities as far as insurance cost is concerned, but remember that any full rate member is free to choose between 200 mph racers, 5 mph floaters, or any combination in between.

_____________________________

Led Zeppelin is NOT "old fogie" music.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 54

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 10:09:55 PM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5685
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

You can do this so long as you don't want to fly in any competitive events. If you never want to join a club, or participate in an event, then you can do so. If. however, you want to do either of these, you will need to join. If you progress beyond the small park flyer type of airplane, and only have the park flyer tiered (if it should come about) membership, then you will need to upgrade to an open membership.

My point all along is that why set up a group to be second class (and we all know that this is exactly what will happen, human nature being what it is), and then pull the rug out from under them later on? If someone is only going to fly the park flyer type of model airplane, then what does the AMA really have to offer them? If you are going to only fly on private property, or outside the recognized model airplane club environment, then what bang will you get for your buck? Not much, I'm thinking.

You asked earlier, and I missed the question before, about the difference between your Air Hog and my planes....The answer is simple. Many months of building, and several thousand dollars. There is actually not much difference physics wise between the 2.95 rubber powered plane that you can buy most everywhere. The difference is that a model replicates a real full scale airplane. The toys do not. That's my definition, and yours may be different.

Bill, AMA 4720

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to friz)

Post #: 55

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 10:24:01 PM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5685
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

KE,

Of course I won't discount the Rubber power flyers, nor the controlliners, nor the free flighters. They are as much a member of the AMA as the guy who flies the top plane at the Scalemasters, maybe even more so. They were here first, and they blazed the trail that we now use as a paved road to fun. Most of the developments that got us where we are today were done by them.

On your post regarding the take home pay today, I think you have your average skewed downward just a tad. Whole it might be locally accurate, San Antonio Texas is hardly the benchmark for the National Average Wage. Yes, you can low buck your way into the hobby, but how long will you be satisfied with the level of plane that this method will afford? Model airplanes are like every other thing in life. You can't sit in one place. You are either going up or down. So where does this leave the guy who can't really afford to be there? You can throw generalizations around all day, but the guy with the dinghy and 2 horse outboard is not going to win the BassMasters. And the guy with the plane that you talked about is not likely to win the Scalemasters, or Top Gun.

Don't you aspire to be the best at whatever you choose to do? It's hard to ever approach the top of the heap if you are hamstrung at the start of the climb. You may disagree with me, and that is your right and your perrogative, but I still say that Radio Controlled model aviation is an expensive hobby, and it probably will not get very inexpensive (if you are going to be competitive), in the future. It is probably not for everyone.

Bill, AMA 4720

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 56

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 10:25:11 PM

combatpigg

Posts: 10141
Joined: 11/22/2003
From: arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline

A toy is anything that doesn't have much practical value, it's object is to provide entertainment. Models are a subcategory of "toy".

In all the years that I've been in this hobby, I have observed the guys who don't "get" this concept are the ones who sit on the sidelines and nervously puff on cigarettes while working up the courage to get 1 flight in with their "model", while the "toy" guys happily put in flight after flight and have a blast all day.

Aspiring to fly bigger and better stuff is no guarantee to having more fun, I've gone full circle and realize that being in the hobby for status and prestige should always be secondary to just the pure enjoyment. I know a lot of guys in competition who are never truly happy with the sport.

< Message edited by combatpigg -- 12/2/2007 10:36:37 PM >

_____________________________

Led Zeppelin is NOT "old fogie" music.

(in reply to Stickbuilder)

Post #: 57

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 10:35:32 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

You can do this so long as you don't want to fly in any competitive events. If you never want to join a club, or participate in an event, then you can do so. If. however, you want to do either of these, you will need to join. If you progress beyond the small park flyer type of airplane, and only have the park flyer tiered (if it should come about) membership, then you will need to upgrade to an open membership.

My point all along is that why set up a group to be second class (and we all know that this is exactly what will happen, human nature being what it is), and then pull the rug out from under them later on? If someone is only going to fly the park flyer type of model airplane, then what does the AMA really have to offer them? If you are going to only fly on private property, or outside the recognized model airplane club environment, then what bang will you get for your buck? Not much, I'm thinking.

Stick did you not read the original program concept email at all? Of course you don't think it will work, you have not switched to just flying parkflyers AND your a proud member of the AMA, it's not for you. The AMA is looking to CONNECT a new group of flyers and a leaving group of flyers, which can take advantage of the vast amount of public parks and smaller potential flying sites, particularly in urban regions where RC airplanes are practically unheard of and deliver them a prodct which FITS THEIR NEEDS and is marketed just for them.

The program concept, as it was explained, also does not to co-mingle or cause a conflict with current AMA programs as well. HOWEVER it sounds like, but I won't bet the farm, that it will NOT limit full AMA members from joining and participating at these park flying designated sites as well as their own flying sites. AND is will create a PARTNERSHIP within AMA clubs, both "first class" and "second class" to make sure they work around frequency issues and any other suggestions the AMA creates to help create a PARTNERSHIP between group A and group B.

How on EARTH could this program ever pull the rug out on anything? How can you possibly see no advantage to this program at all? Besides, DM is the driving force behind it, so don't worry!

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to Stickbuilder)

Post #: 58

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 10:35:55 PM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline

Stick,
if you group ARF fliers, in with the FF & Rubber planes that dont replicate real planes, along with the EXTREME FLYING we just saw the AMA put out, and kick out all these folks you deem Non-Modellers, then the only folks left in the AMA will be you... oh, and me cause I spend years glueing balsa trying to look like & fly like real planes too.

So while I appreciate your inclusion of me in your New World Order ... I mean New AMA Order,
I dont think that would be fair to the AMA FF,
or the AMA Rubber,
or the masses of ama members you would kick for buying ARF not building their plane.... just as you wont let in guys that buy electrics rather than build.

What about the PF Warbirds, 4channel REAT foamie arf electic ARF like the $59 GWS ones?
Should they be called Toys & fly all over uncontrolled,
or would you welcome them into the $29 AMA-Lite PF Tier

Oh, almost forgot,
the Fan Fold Foamie 3d/4d Shockers will be in your new world order with us, cause they scratch built them 4d planes of their own design.... making them modellers, right?

Heck, FFF should get a $2 discount beyond the $29 PF Tier

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to Stickbuilder)

Post #: 59

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 11:26:57 PM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5685
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

Dion,

Since we are full members, we would be able (if we so choose) to fly in the P/F arena, but they could not fly in ours without upgrading their membership. This is what I mean by a second class membership. I think it is going to cause hard feelings, and will blow up in someone's face.

Bill, AMA 4720

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 60

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 11:31:37 PM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5685
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Stick,
if you group ARF fliers, in with the FF & Rubber planes that dont replicate real planes, along with the EXTREME FLYING we just saw the AMA put out, and kick out all these folks you deem Non-Modellers, then the only folks left in the AMA will be you... oh, and me cause I spend years glueing balsa trying to look like & fly like real planes too.

So while I appreciate your inclusion of me in your New World Order ... I mean New AMA Order,
I dont think that would be fair to the AMA FF,
or the AMA Rubber,
or the masses of ama members you would kick for buying ARF not building their plane.... just as you wont let in guys that buy electrics rather than build.

What about the PF Warbirds, 4channel REAT foamie arf electic ARF like the $59 GWS ones?
Should they be called Toys & fly all over uncontrolled,
or would you welcome them into the $29 AMA-Lite PF Tier

Oh, almost forgot,
the Fan Fold Foamie 3d/4d Shockers will be in your new world order with us, cause they scratch built them 4d planes of their own design.... making them modellers, right?

Heck, FFF should get a $2 discount beyond the $29 PF Tier

Sorry Kid,

Go to a Major event (one that you have to qualify for, and not something like the Nats, which should be renamed, since there is no qualification required to be there) and try to enter an ARF. They are going to hand you a form that is called a Builder's Declaration. You sign it to be able to enter, and if you are trying it with an ARF, you will be out on your ear in a heartbeat. The Rubber power and Free flight builders are much better modellers than most any that you will find at your field. They actually know how to build, and build light, and build straight, and they actually know how to trim a model airplane so that it flies correctly without any input from a radio. Nice try, but you ain't going to suck me into that argument.

Bill, AMA 4720

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 61

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 11:43:47 PM

friz

Posts: 76
Joined: 6/3/2005
From: Great Bend, KS, USA
Status: offline

Well Stick, I guess we look at the past differently. I was one of those kids that yearned to be a part of model aviation, but did not have the resources to get into RC. I managed to save up 12.00 and send it off to a mail order hobby company that specialized in trains, but in the back of the catalog they sold peanut scale airpalne kits of the balsa and tissue variety. My 12.00 bought me six of these. They taught me how to build, weight and balance, etc. I built and flew all of them to different degrees of success. When I first flew a modern "RC toy airplane", my childhood fantasy of flight was realized. If I had one of these available to me as a child I would have never bothered with the balsa and tissue planes, and I would have had a lot more fun.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 62

RE: Try to guess, new Parkflyer program cost - 12/2/2007 11:43:51 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

It's a give and take Stick. But last time I checked the AMA averaged 55+ aged men. Are there even 1/2 of 1% women in the AMA? Hurt feelings, come on. Plus the person paid for what he wanted, he made that decision and odds are he's a 55 year old man.

B