RE: GETTING PAID

RE: GETTING PAID
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/6/2007 7:03:59 PM

The Toolman

Posts: 817
Joined: 11/29/2005
From: Warsaw, MO, USA
Status: online

The ins co's are just like the mafia, they see that you are making a buck an they want their cut from it. The irs an the ins co's both work on the same principle. The more you end up making, the more blood money they will want.

Ronnie

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Ron B.
AMA-862729 PB-2718

(in reply to carden cap)

Post #: 26

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/6/2007 7:48:54 PM

Jim Thomerson

Posts: 2824
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

If you fly at an airshow for pay, I would think the airshow whould have insurance which would cover you. I've done paid consulting, which involved model flying, and was covered by the company's insurance while doing so.

(in reply to The Toolman)

Post #: 27

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 12:42:13 AM

ira d

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Rancho Belago, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: ira d

I look at the occasional flight for pay or being paid for instruction occasionally
the same as if use my car to take someone somewhere and they pay me its
really nobodys business, but if put a taxi sign on my car and start to solicit
customers im sure my insurance company along with the state and local
authorties would have a problem with me.

Right and just like drunk driving, what if you got caught. I think that's the point of this thread, at the least part it sounds like this guy is looking for helpful advice. I mean anyone can break the law or take a risk with their home and personal equities, that's easy. The hard part is being responsible.

What if your driving someone and they pay you and then you get into an accident. And lets say that accident was caused by you and you hurt your "friend" who had to pay you to drive them somewhere. First off I assume he's not a friend if the guys gotta pay you for a lift. Under most local and state ordinances, you just made yourself an illegal taxi. In fact in the case of driving anyone in California for any kind of compensation is considered commercial and that even includes any kind of expenses. If you've been to San Francisco, it's easy to understand why they have that law. Just about every cab I've ever attempted to get into there was an illegal taxi first.

You don't have to "solicit" your customers to be qualified as a taxi, you just have to accept money. The money is what the local authorities and a judge would have a problem with, not the word Taxi written on your car.

STL

I have paid people and people have paid me for a ride and yes sometime it involves
freinds and never a problem. Common sense tells me its my right to accept money
for takeing someone somewhere in my car if I want to and no its not against the
law and if it was I dont see how it could be enforced.

You see I would never be stuipd enough to have somthing in writing saying im takeing
person X to place X for X amount of money in fact I dont like to ride anybody in my
car I feel I cant trust and i dont see the relationship at all to drunk driving.

_____________________________

Ira d

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 28

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 12:47:44 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9206
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: ira d

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: ira d

I look at the occasional flight for pay or being paid for instruction occasionally
the same as if use my car to take someone somewhere and they pay me its
really nobodys business, but if put a taxi sign on my car and start to solicit
customers im sure my insurance company along with the state and local
authorties would have a problem with me.

Right and just like drunk driving, what if you got caught. I think that's the point of this thread, at the least part it sounds like this guy is looking for helpful advice. I mean anyone can break the law or take a risk with their home and personal equities, that's easy. The hard part is being responsible.

What if your driving someone and they pay you and then you get into an accident. And lets say that accident was caused by you and you hurt your "friend" who had to pay you to drive them somewhere. First off I assume he's not a friend if the guys gotta pay you for a lift. Under most local and state ordinances, you just made yourself an illegal taxi. In fact in the case of driving anyone in California for any kind of compensation is considered commercial and that even includes any kind of expenses. If you've been to San Francisco, it's easy to understand why they have that law. Just about every cab I've ever attempted to get into there was an illegal taxi first.

You don't have to "solicit" your customers to be qualified as a taxi, you just have to accept money. The money is what the local authorities and a judge would have a problem with, not the word Taxi written on your car.

STL

I have paid people and people have paid me for a ride and yes sometime it involves
freinds and never a problem. Common sense tells me its my right to accept money
for takeing someone somewhere in my car if I want to and no its not against the
law and if it was I dont see how it could be enforced.

You see I would never be stuipd enough to have somthing in writing saying im takeing
person X to place X for X amount of money in fact I dont like to ride anybody in my
car I feel I cant trust and i dont see the relationship at all to drunk driving.

Ira I still think that you are missing the point of the thread and discussion. Sure anyone can cheat the system, it's not that hard to do. Most of us do it a few times a day unknowingly and knowingly. But the OP is looking for a suggestion that won't cheat the system in case SOMETHING GOES WRONG. Most likely something won't go wrong, but if he's flying at an airshow and his 40% flies into a crowd, then what? I think that's the answer he was just looking for.

I'm pretty sure he's well aware that he can do anything he wants in life. When you have a crowd of 10,000 and payment received from say, The Air Force or some other large organization. It's pretty hard to tell a judge that you weren't the one that did "it" and that you didn't accept money for doing "it". Let alone the fact someone referred the FAA's own regulation on flying radio control for compensation falls into a whole new category, whether you do it 1 time or 100 times makes NO difference.

There are ways around the OP's situation. First and foremost is to have them sign a hold harmless. But even that only carries so much weight. Some states don't even recognize them. But I suggest the OP looks up the definition "soft money" transaction. It's a term that's used on the street where I work quite often.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to ira d)

Post #: 29

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 1:05:57 PM

bkdavy

Posts: 1470
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: FrederickMD, USA
Status: offline

quote:

I'm not talking about flying trainers or a tiger stick off to the side of the airshow at an airshow. ... I'm just talking about 1 or 2 shows in my area where I live.

Unfortunately, the FAA regulations don't set a limit on the number of times you perform commercial activities while flying. It has nothing to do with insurance. It has everything to do with the FAA which is the regulatory authority for airspace in the U.S. If someone pays you for a service, its a commercial venture.

If you're worried about fuel costs, and they're willing to provide fuel, have them purchase the fuel. But if you want them to compensate you for your skill, prowess, and ability to entertain, now you're commercial.

And no matter what insurance you have, you can be pretty sure that activities conducted that are not in compliance with Federal or State regulations will nullify what ever insurance you're using, AMA, private, etc. If someone gets hurt, you lose the farm.

It may not seem fair, and its probably not. The Government has determined that public safety is more important that personal freedom in the arena of air safety. And standby. In the next couple years, the FAA will be publishing new regulation for UAVs that will even further restrict our hobby activities.

Better hope the AMA can get in front of this one and help us out.

Brad

(in reply to carden cap)

Post #: 30

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 2:41:42 PM

ira d

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Rancho Belago, CA, USA
Status: offline

Im not missing the point at all im saying that there are ways to do things without
creating unnecessary problems for yourself as I said if he was to be paid after
the event especaily if it was in cash there would be no risk that I can see.

When I give someone a ride and they pay me for my gas and time its always in cash
and after the fact although doing it that way was just a matter of pacticallity because
I was not running a commercial operation but also it helps to keep anyone from
thinking I was.

_____________________________

Ira d

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 31

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 2:59:52 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9206
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online

Getting the cash isn't the risk, the risk is the plane flying into a crowd. More then likely he's not flying at a facility which is designed and laid out for RC operations. RC fields have specific layouts and warnings. If you can think of a way for the OP to protect his livelihood from legitimate consequences, feel free to share those ideas. I don't know if you've ever been sued, but your friends can forget about you real quick when someone gets hurt. Do an RCU search for Casey Rowe, I just suggest you just read instead of bringing up the discussion in this forum.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to ira d)

Post #: 32

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 3:00:25 PM

ira d

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Rancho Belago, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bkdavy

quote:

I'm not talking about flying trainers or a tiger stick off to the side of the airshow at an airshow. ... I'm just talking about 1 or 2 shows in my area where I live.

Unfortunately, the FAA regulations don't set a limit on the number of times you perform commercial activities while flying. It has nothing to do with insurance. It has everything to do with the FAA which is the regulatory authority for airspace in the U.S. If someone pays you for a service, its a commercial venture.

If you're worried about fuel costs, and they're willing to provide fuel, have them purchase the fuel. But if you want them to compensate you for your skill, prowess, and ability to entertain, now you're commercial.

And no matter what insurance you have, you can be pretty sure that activities conducted that are not in compliance with Federal or State regulations will nullify what ever insurance you're using, AMA, private, etc. If someone gets hurt, you lose the farm.

It may not seem fair, and its probably not. The Government has determined that public safety is more important that personal freedom in the arena of air safety. And standby. In the next couple years, the FAA will be publishing new regulation for UAVs that will even further restrict our hobby activities.

Better hope the AMA can get in front of this one and help us out.

Brad

I know that there will always be a gray area between what is commerical and private
and insurance companys will sometime look for excuses not to pay but in general
if you dont solicit for business and you dont do somthing on a regular basics or have
somthing in writing or have a busness license it would hard to make a case that you
are a commerical operation. No im not a attorney and I know there can be exceptions
in every case.

_____________________________

Ira d

(in reply to bkdavy)

Post #: 33

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 3:25:14 PM

carden cap

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/5/2007
From: , GA, USA
Status: offline

Everyone has a different oppinion. I thought this was the "AMA Discussion" meaning an AMA employee/board member would chime in and add "The Rule" on this subject in this forum. It seems everyone is spouting off what THEY think is right or wrong. Guess I'll call up the AMA myself cause it isnt going anywhere in this thread.

(in reply to ira d)

Post #: 34

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 3:36:50 PM

JUGFLIER

Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Muscle Shoals, AL, USA
Status: offline

Carden'
You were given the correct info, it just may not be what you wanted. If you take money for doing airshows AMA insurance ( which is secondary) does not cover you. You need to get some primary coverage for your airplane if you are going to be monetarily compensated for flying. The Hartford can help you out.

(in reply to carden cap)

Post #: 35

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 5:20:35 PM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3407
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline

Yup, back in the begining we made that clear,
and then everyone & their brother decided to help you find ways to cheat, lie, hide the income, & just plain igore any laws because you wont get caught.

AMA wont cover you for comercial (not just profitable) flying.

Does it really mater if I try to redefine that all day long I do 'favors' for managers of a business, and they simply reimburse me for my Rent, Food, Gas, Electricbill, Movies, Fuel & Planes, Xbox, beer, going on dates, pizza, and any monies I put into IRA...... Why not just call that reimbursement instead of Paycheck, and I wont have to pay any taxes. For every hour of doing stuff for them, I can hand in $XX worth of reimbursement reciepts? Or is the plan to have the managers just pay cash when nobody else is around... or leave the cash in the restroom & I pick it up later like a drug deal.
Brilliant!
I really love the part how it isnt illegal solely because it is hard to get caught.... no other justification. Yes, working under the table is easy, ask the illegal aliens that illegal work.

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Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to JUGFLIER)

Post #: 36

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 7:43:11 PM

bkdavy

Posts: 1470
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: FrederickMD, USA
Status: offline

In the original post, you asked why the AMA won't permit you to recieve pay to fly in a demonstration. The answer is the AMA does not have anything to do with commercial operation of model aircraft. The FAA specifically exempted Hobby use only.

From the Federal Aviation Administration Federal Aviation Regulation, 14 CFR 1, Definitions:

quote:

Air commerce means interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce or the transportation of mail by aircraft or any operation or navigation of aircraft within the limits of any Federal airway or any operation or navigation of aircraft which directly affects, or which may endanger safety in, interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce.

Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

The AMA is not going to jump in and tell you its OK to violate Federal Regulations.

You have the facts. Use them as you choose, but don't get angry at the people providing them.

Sorry.
Brad

(in reply to carden cap)

Post #: 37

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 8:36:31 PM

ira d

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Rancho Belago, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bkdavy

In the original post, you asked why the AMA won't permit you to recieve pay to fly in a demonstration. The answer is the AMA does not have anything to do with commercial operation of model aircraft. The FAA specifically exempted Hobby use only.

From the Federal Aviation Administration Federal Aviation Regulation, 14 CFR 1, Definitions:

quote:

Air commerce means interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce or the transportation of mail by aircraft or any operation or navigation of aircraft within the limits of any Federal airway or any operation or navigation of aircraft which directly affects, or which may endanger safety in, interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce.

Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

The AMA is not going to jump in and tell you its OK to violate Federal Regulations.

You have the facts. Use them as you choose, but don't get angry at the people providing them.

Sorry.
Brad

I dont see what the FAA rule has to do with model planes as I read it appears to be
talking about using a full scall airplane.

_____________________________

Ira d

(in reply to bkdavy)

Post #: 38

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/7/2007 8:41:32 PM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3407
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

I fail to see where they mention Full Scale anywhere in that definition.
Without them mentioning a scale, why assume scale had anything to do with it?

Does the DEA have to specificly say that Small Scale Model drugs are illegal too?
What about tiny shooting model machineguns? BATF&E didnt mention scale either.

heck, they have laws for kites & balloons

< Message edited by KidEpoxy -- 12/7/2007 8:43:00 PM >

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Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to ira d)